Immigration and Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.) (part II)

[92tide]

ICE Has Detained Some Native Americans. N.C. Republican Says ‘There Will be Mistakes.’

As ICE detains Native Americans, Republican lawmakers like N.C.'s Addison McDowell dismiss it as "not a perfect process."

www.theassemblync.com

Native American community members have increasingly been stopped, detained, and harassed by ICE solely because of their skin color or names, tribal leaders told The Washington Post.

In recent weeks, at least five Native American men have reportedly been detained in Minneapolis, according to Indian Country Today. In Phoenix, a Navajo man said he was detained for hours earlier this month, even after he presented documentation of his tribal citizenship and his birth certificate. Elaine Miles—a Native American actor known for television roles in shows like HBO’s “The Last of Us”—said she was questioned in Washington state in December by an ICE agent who asked, “Are you Mexican?” according to Seattle’s NPR station.

 

[81usaf92]

I denounced and continue to denounce the storming of the capitol, just as I denounced the summer of riots in 2020 that killed numerous innocent people and destroyed the property of people of all walks of life, and I denounce the agitators in Minneapolis.

I’m against lawless behavior in principle, regardless of who is doing it. I don’t selectively pick which insurrections I’m for or against.

That’s the problem: things have gotten so polarized that people can’t even come out against rioting in the streets over the arrest of violent criminals.

At least we still have the Tide in common I guess.

There are fine lines between rioting and protesting. There are also fine lines between law enforcement and fear enforcement. Until the federal government starts to understand the differences between the two then rioting will continue to happen. Sometimes i think people only look at the reaction and never look at addressing the actions that led to the reaction.

 

[92tide]

But in condemning violence it would be an act of irresponsibility not to be as strong in condemning the conditions in our society that cause people to feel so angry that they have no alternative but to engage in riots. What we must see is that a riot is the language of the unheard.

MLK speech transcript

On Jan 11, 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. spoke at Ohio Northern University to an overflow crowd in Taft Memorial Gymnasium. Read the speech transcript here.

www.onu.edu

 

[92tide]

Republican Senator Calls for Kristi Noem's Resignation

Tillis called for the resignation of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, in the wake of the fatal shooting of Alex Pretti.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Huckleberry]

I denounced and continue to denounce the storming of the capitol, just as I denounced the summer of riots in 2020 that killed numerous innocent people and destroyed the property of people of all walks of life, and I denounce the agitators in Minneapolis.

I’m against lawless behavior in principle, regardless of who is doing it. I don’t selectively pick which insurrections I’m for or against.

That’s the problem: things have gotten so polarized that people can’t even come out against rioting in the streets over the arrest of violent criminals.

At least we still have the Tide in common I guess.

Who is rioting in the streets? And on what basis are you describing what’s been happening in Minneapolis that way?

This didn’t start with one arrest or one incident. It’s been building for months as the Trump administration expanded ICE operations inside cities, used aggressive tactics, and eroded public trust through secrecy and escalation. People didn’t wake up one day and decide to riot “over the arrest of violent criminals.”

I’ve already said I oppose real violence and lawless behavior by anyone. What I’m pushing back on is your insistence on labeling broad protest as agitator driven “insurrection.” That description doesn’t match what we’re actually seeing, and it avoids engaging with why people are protesting in the first place.

When all opposition is treated as unlawful by definition, then any criticism of ICE automatically becomes illegitimate. A few bad actors do not erase the right of people to protest what they see as violations of human and constitutional rights. Supporting the rule of law does not mean giving law enforcement unlimited discretion to enforce it however they choose.

 

[92tide]

the rats seem to be scurrying around alot

 

[92tide]

Who is rioting in the streets? And on what basis are you describing what’s been happening in Minneapolis that way?

This didn’t start with one arrest or one incident. It’s been building for months as the Trump administration expanded ICE operations inside cities, used aggressive tactics, and eroded public trust through secrecy and escalation. People didn’t wake up one day and decide to riot “over the arrest of violent criminals.”

I’ve already said I oppose real violence and lawless behavior by anyone. What I’m pushing back on is your insistence on labeling broad protest as agitator driven “insurrection.” That description doesn’t match what we’re actually seeing, and it avoids engaging with why people are protesting in the first place.

When all opposition is treated as unlawful by definition, then any criticism of ICE automatically becomes illegitimate. A few bad actors do not erase the right of people to protest what they see as violations of human and constitutional rights. Supporting the rule of law does not mean giving law enforcement unlimited discretion to enforce it however they choose.

paid outside agitators. where have i heard that before?

 

[92tide]

Who is rioting in the streets? And on what basis are you describing what’s been happening in Minneapolis that way?

i mean, whistles and phones can be really scary

 

[Huckleberry]

i mean, whistles and phones can be really scary

We've been told that those things (and really loud yelling) are "violence." MAGA police thugs seem quite fragile.

 

[Huckleberry]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2016239206163742862

An ICE agent in Minneapolis tells an American citizen "If you raise your voice, I will erase your voice."

Stop telling me that the Trump administration isn't Fascist. They are threatening people for "raising their voice," and how exactly will ICE "erase our voice?" Kill us?





How can anyone defend this message from American law enforcement? I guess we should all know better than to yell at (or protest against) these guys. That's unlawful.

 

[Huckleberry]

NVM

 

[Huckleberry]

And this is exactly why I get my shorts in a knot over this stupid nazi rhetoric. It trivializes a truly horrific event and is an insult to the dead. Fling insults at OMB all you want, but for God's sake, show some decency.

EDIT: after re-reading this, I feel like it comes off as being directed at you, Huck. This was not my intention as this message is meant for everyone (including Hank Jr. who tried this, too.)

Directly calling anyone Hitler or a Nazi (unless self-proclaimed) is unnecessary. There are plenty of terms to describe certain despicable people without using those particular words.

 

[92tide]

Directly calling anyone Hitler or a Nazi (unless self-proclaimed) is unnecessary. There are plenty of terms to describe certain despicable people without using those particular words.

doughy pantload wrote this in his early years. he is considered a "moderate/reasonable" conservative

 

[dtgreg]

Who is rioting in the streets? And on what basis are you describing what’s been happening in Minneapolis that way?

This didn’t start with one arrest or one incident. It’s been building for months as the Trump administration expanded ICE operations inside cities, used aggressive tactics, and eroded public trust through secrecy and escalation. People didn’t wake up one day and decide to riot “over the arrest of violent criminals.”

I’ve already said I oppose real violence and lawless behavior by anyone. What I’m pushing back on is your insistence on labeling broad protest as agitator driven “insurrection.” That description doesn’t match what we’re actually seeing, and it avoids engaging with why people are protesting in the first place.

When all opposition is treated as unlawful by definition, then any criticism of ICE automatically becomes illegitimate. A few bad actors do not erase the right of people to protest what they see as violations of human and constitutional rights. Supporting the rule of law does not mean giving law enforcement unlimited discretion to enforce it however they choose.

Especially these clowns.

 

[Huckleberry]

ICE agents blocked from attempting to enter Ecuadorian consulate in Minneapolis without permission

Ecuador's minister of foreign affairs has filed a protest with the U.S. Embassy after Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents tried to enter the Ecuadorian consulate in Minneapolis without permission on Tuesday.

kstp.com

ICE agents blocked from attempting to enter Ecuadorian consulate in Minneapolis without permission​

Ecuador’s minister of foreign affairs has filed a protest with the U.S. Embassy after Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents tried to enter the Ecuadorian consulate in Minneapolis without permission on Tuesday.

A video of the attempt on social media shows a consulate staffer running to the door to turn the ICE agents away around 11 a.m., telling them, “This is the Ecuadorian consulate. You’re not allowed to enter.” One ICE officer can be heard responding by threatening to “grab” the staffer if he touched the agent before agreeing to leave.

International law generally prohibits law enforcement authorities from entering foreign consulates or embassies without permission, though sometimes permission may be assumed granted for life-threatening emergencies, such as fires.

“Consulate officials immediately prevented the ICE officer from entering the consular building, thus ensuring the protection of the Ecuadorians who were present at the time and activating the emergency protocols issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Human Mobility,” the ministry wrote on X.

A “note of protest” was filed with the U.S. Embassy in Ecuador so that similar attempts aren’t made at other consulates, the ministry said. The State Department, Homeland Security and Immigration and Customs Enforcement did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

Minneapolis City Council Member Elliot Payne released a video statement in response to the incident, stating that he spoke with Ambassador Yanez on Tuesday afternoon, who reassured the Ecuadorian community that it is still safe to come to the consulate.

 

[editder]

Who is rioting in the streets? And on what basis are you describing what’s been happening in Minneapolis that way?

You need to watch something besides MS NOW if you haven’t seen any rioting. Smashing windows in shops, hotels, and vehicles; throwing frozen water bottles, rocks and other projectiles at police; arson; biting off an officer’s finger; putting up barricades on public streets; spitting on people and causing a general disturbance are all examples of rioting and they have been happening in Minneapolis. Add to that the murders that occurred in 2020 across the country. I think they even burned down the police station in Minneapolis back then.

I’m starting to think you don’t agree with my worldview. That’s okay, but can we at least agree that when the Molotov cocktails start flying a protest is no longer peaceful?

This didn’t start with one arrest or one incident. It’s been building for months as the Trump administration expanded ICE operations inside cities, used aggressive tactics, and eroded public trust through secrecy and escalation. People didn’t wake up one day and decide to riot “over the arrest of violent criminals.”

Secrecy when about to perform a raid to apprehend a dangerous criminal? Oh my!

BTW, the guy ICE was trying to apprehend on the day of the shooting is still at large. He’s not a model citizen.

I’ve already said I oppose real violence and lawless behavior by anyone. What I’m pushing back on is your insistence on labeling broad protest as agitator driven “insurrection.” That description doesn’t match what we’re actually seeing, and it avoids engaging with why people are protesting in the first place.

Again, I have no problem with peaceful protesting. I’m still trying to understand what principle they’re risking their lives for when going beyond peaceful protesting.

When all opposition is treated as unlawful by definition, then any criticism of ICE automatically becomes illegitimate. A few bad actors do not erase the right of people to protest what they see as violations of human and constitutional rights. Supporting the rule of law does not mean giving law enforcement unlimited discretion to enforce it however they choose.

I’m not treating all opposition as unlawful by definition. I made it very clear that I only had a problem with unlawful impedance of legitimate law enforcement activities, and I listed some specific examples of unlawful acts.

 

[Huckleberry]

You need to watch something besides MS NOW if you haven’t seen any rioting. Smashing windows in shops, hotels, and vehicles; throwing frozen water bottles, rocks and other projectiles at police; arson; biting off an officer’s finger; putting up barricades on public streets; spitting on people and causing a general disturbance are all examples of rioting and they have been happening in Minneapolis. Add to that the murders that occurred in 2020 across the country. I think they even burned down the police station in Minneapolis back then.

Your definition of recent rioting is a bit broader than mine, though what happened in 2020 definitely fit the bill. It has nothing to do with our discussion, however. "Causing a general disturbance" is extraordinarily vague. If my neighbors throw a loud party, are they rioting?

Secrecy when about to perform a raid to apprehend a dangerous criminal? Oh my!

If it were only dangerous criminals they were after and rights were recognized, no one would be following ICE.

I’m starting to think you don’t agree with my worldview. That’s okay, but can we at least agree that when the Molotov cocktails start flying a protest is no longer peaceful?

Yes, when firebombs are involved, a protest is no longer peaceful.

Again, I have no problem with peaceful protesting. I’m still trying to understand what principle they’re risking their lives for when going beyond peaceful protesting.

I’m not treating all opposition as unlawful by definition. I made it very clear that I only had a problem with unlawful impedance of legitimate law enforcement activities, and I listed some specific examples of unlawful acts.

Videoing, shouting (even hurtful epithets), questioning, and blowing whistles are all examples of lawful protesting, no matter what the Trump Administration says. I guess they could fall outside of one's definition of "peaceful," but lawful should be enough. I generally agree with your other examples, though none of them merit the death penalty.

 

[PaulD]

For the critics of ICE, I have an honest question.

How would you characterize your position on immigration enforcement?

Do you want immigration laws enforced but not by ICE patrols inside the country? In other words, enforce immigration law at the border, but once inside the country, let them go?
What about visa overstays?
Do you want immigration laws enforced only insofar as illegal immigrants who commit violent or otherwise serious crimes are deported? (i.e. illegal immigrants who have simply worked, lived their lives, not broken any laws should stay?)
Do you not want immigration laws enforced at all?
Do you just not want ICE arresting Americans or shooting anyone, but otherwise are okay with ICE enforcing immigration law?
Some other position?

I do believe that immigration laws should be enforced, but we need to be realistic. We are not going to be able to deport all people (and never forget that they are people) who are subject to deportation without a massive draconian operation that the public will not support. Our economy depends on people who are here without legal authorization. Perhaps it shouldn't, but it does. There are tasks that citizens aren't willing to perform under the conditions the jobs entail and for the wages they will pay. Short of drafting people and forcing them to do them, it won't happen.

Some people who shouldn't be here are truly dangerous. I doubt it's a huge percentage and they need to go. But we have legal processes and we need to follow them. The current process, to the extent there is one, is to hoover up as many as we can to meet an arbitrary quota. We can't say with a straight face that these are the "worst of the worst."

We need to strengthen the immigration system, for example by hiring more judges. We have moral and legal requirements to deal properly with refugees. We aren't. If we don't want to do that anymore, then we need to denounce the applicable treaties and repeal our domestic laws.

When we are holding people, we have obligation of law and fundamental decency in how we treat them. By all accounts, we aren't and haven't been. This costs money. Or we accept that we're willing to run a system reminiscent of the Gulag Archipelago.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Or storming the capitol. But apparently no right winger wants to have to talk about the legality of that or the fact that they were literally killing cops. But we want to complain about it here

Killing cops? Good Lord. I’ve criticized the J6ers many times on this board, but not for that because it didn't happen.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

We've been told that those things (and really loud yelling) are "violence." MAGA police thugs seem quite fragile.

They are afraid of people who have a backbone and inner moral principals and who are empathetic towards other humans.

Bullies don’t like it when their violence and oppression is opposed in any way.