Alabama QB competition article

[JDCrimson]

There's a lot of truth in what you say, though I think you may be overstating the case just a bit. Kiffin would have been gone for a lot of reasons, Sark as well. Jalen's weaknesses didn't cause those departures. Daboll's a pro guy, and his reputation as a recruiter was iffy. So I'm not sure if he would have left or not.

Recruiting was getting hurt, though we still ended up with a Top 10 class.

The frustration of the WRs probably would have led to more than one transfer.

And we did win our 5th NC in 9 years.

Still, I'm on record multiple times as believing that Jalen's towering strength -- ball security -- has become too expensive in terms of missed opportunities, especially against good to elite defenses. He's thoroughly diagnosed, and the best defenses make us one-dimensional with him under center. It's just that only a few opponents have the talent to execute what everybody in the stadium knows they need to do.

The deal is, it's the performances against those teams that delineate a good solid season from a championship one.

Tua won't be perfect. I have every expectation that, as they get more film, opponents will diagnose him as well. But he has such a skill set that they'll never make us one-dimensional because of QB play -- which they do with Jalen. Tua will make more turnovers than Jalen. But he will make infinitely more plays, and we'll have far fewer three-and-outs against opponents that matter. It's a price I'm willing to pay.

While I have no inside information whatsoever, Nick Saban is nothing if not a risk manager. I have to believe he sees that as well.

I understand there were underlying character flaws with Kiffin and Sark that were overriding factors in their leaving. I also agree that Daboll was a questionable recruiter but a decent OC who really had no experience in working with a QB like Jalen. A lot things can probably be said about Barnett but he was the only guy on the roster who could have pushed and potentially exposed the weaknesses in Jalen’s game. To me that QB competition in retrospect was poorly mismanaged and we likely were too quick to name Jalen the permanent starter. Essentially coach is getting another opportunity to get it right with Tua on the roster.

We were not good enough defensively in 2017 to win the SEC and not good enough defensively to win NC until Tua came in. Given our inexperience defensively this year, I don’t suspect that we will be good enough to with SEC or NC with Jalen’s inconsistent passing and ultra-conservative play.


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[BamaInCummingGA#1]

At this point, I'm not so sure there is a "qb competition". I really think the coaching staff knows who will start (baring inj or off field issues, of course). This is all conjecture on my part because I don't sit in with the coaching staff.
Coach Saban is a lot like coach Bryant from what I remember of Coach Bryant. There are certain people/things you are comfortable and familiar with and are sometimes slower to change because it has worked so well for you in the past. However, at some point you see the writing on the wall and you make a change. I think CNS hit that point at half time in the NCS and went further in the re-tooling of the coaching staff going more towards youth and such.
I think speaking about a qb competition is more in lines of tipping the cap to JH for what he has done for this program while not exactly throwing him under the bus but clearly wanting to make a change. Making sure he knows there is still a place on the team if he desires that but saying Thank You and no ill will if he decides to transfer.

 

[rgw]

I understand there were underlying character flaws with Kiffin and Sark that were overriding factors in their leaving. I also agree that Daboll was a questionable recruiter but a decent OC who really had no experience in working with a QB like Jalen. A lot things can probably be said about Barnett but he was the only guy on the roster who could have pushed and potentially exposed the weaknesses in Jalen’s game. To me that QB competition in retrospect was poorly mismanaged and we likely were too quick to name Jalen the permanent starter. Essentially coach is getting another opportunity to get it right with Tua on the roster.

We were not good enough defensively in 2017 to win the SEC and not good enough defensively to win NC until Tua came in. Given our inexperience defensively this year, I don’t suspect that we will be good enough to with SEC or NC with Jalen’s inconsistent passing and ultra-conservative play.


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Frankly, I saw very little from Daboll to suggest that he was a good OC. I guess decent is a good way to classify him because it wasn't bad stuff but the best things we did on offense in 2017 were in the run game and Locks ended up designing a great deal of that plan due to running QB familiarity.

 

[BamaInBham]

I watched the video... How did the coaches watch the film breakdowns of his play? What I want to know is how we had to get down 3 scores in NC before we made the change? Kiffin saw what this guy saw half way through 16 and mailed it in for the remainder of the season. Sark saw it after 1 game and left. Daboll was beyond frustrated all season and left to go to back to the NFL. A full blown mutiny was unfolding after the AU game. Recruits were fleeing in droves all throughout last season.

We saw cameos of what Tua was capable of throughout last season and the unparalleled moxie in the NC. Yet here we are, coach allowing there to be a QB controversy. What does coach see or want to see in Jalen that just isn’t there? It’s like he doesn’t want to admit he was wrong about Jalen and the DT/spread experiment. His reaction at the end of the NC was more like a fan than a coach imo. Sort of like a “y’all want to do it your way have at it I will tell you so after it’s over” shock when you’re wrong.

After seeing that I cant understand why we are still debating this.


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Some of your comments are accurate, others are not, but your overall conclusion is baffling and disrespectful. You imply that CNS cannot see what you and I and other amateurs do in the QBs. I find that incredibly naïve.

 

[Intl.Aperture]

I watched the video... How did the coaches watch the film breakdowns of his play? What I want to know is how we had to get down 3 scores in NC before we made the change? Kiffin saw what this guy saw half way through 16 and mailed it in for the remainder of the season. Sark saw it after 1 game and left. Daboll was beyond frustrated all season and left to go to back to the NFL. A full blown mutiny was unfolding after the AU game. Recruits were fleeing in droves all throughout last season.

We saw cameos of what Tua was capable of throughout last season and the unparalleled moxie in the NC. Yet here we are, coach allowing there to be a QB controversy. What does coach see or want to see in Jalen that just isn’t there? It’s like he doesn’t want to admit he was wrong about Jalen and the DT/spread experiment. His reaction at the end of the NC was more like a fan than a coach imo. Sort of like a “y’all want to do it your way have at it I will tell you so after it’s over” shock when you’re wrong.

After seeing that I cant understand why we are still debating this.


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What controversy?
I see a competition.
It's starting to feel like people ACTUALLY expected Saban to name a starter coming out of spring - because he's done that so often.

 

[Crimson White]

What controversy?
I see a competition.
It's starting to feel like people ACTUALLY expected Saban to name a starter coming out of spring - because he's done that so often.

If we judge by the spring game, Mac Jones would be the competition. Course, it isn't judged just by the spring game, and we have 2 years worth to judge Hurts vs good defenses, so maybe the competition is Mac Jones after all.

 

[RedWave]

What controversy?
I see a competition.
It's starting to feel like people ACTUALLY expected Saban to name a starter coming out of spring - because he's done that so often.

I agree with you. Saban doesn't make that announcement at all, in my memory anyway. First offensive snap of the year, we get to find out who he plans to play. I WISH he would make the announcement, at least this time out, just to reduce my angst about the situation, and allow the guy who might come up on the short end to make the transfer if he wants to do so.

 

[gtgilbert]

Frankly, I saw very little from Daboll to suggest that he was a good OC. I guess decent is a good way to classify him because it wasn't bad stuff but the best things we did on offense in 2017 were in the run game and Locks ended up designing a great deal of that plan due to running QB familiarity.

The second half of the national championship game looked pretty good to me. I think prior to that he was very constrained by what Jalen could execute. When the OC has to simplify the entire playset so that the QB only has to read half the field instead of the full field, that is not the OC's fault nor should it be view of if the OC is good/great/bad. He had to do what he did due to a constraint. We saw what could happen once that constraint was removed and Tua was reading the entire field and going through progressions so that UGA had to defend the entire field instead of being able to dictate where a play would go based on knowing exactly how Jalen would make a read. UGA could show Jalen a look and basically know what he would do because the read and progression package had been paired back so much.

 

[BamaHoosier]

I watched the video... How did the coaches watch the film breakdowns of his play? What I want to know is how we had to get down 3 scores in NC before we made the change? Kiffin saw what this guy saw half way through 16 and mailed it in for the remainder of the season. Sark saw it after 1 game and left. Daboll was beyond frustrated all season and left to go to back to the NFL. A full blown mutiny was unfolding after the AU game. Recruits were fleeing in droves all throughout last season.

We saw cameos of what Tua was capable of throughout last season and the unparalleled moxie in the NC. Yet here we are, coach allowing there to be a QB controversy. What does coach see or want to see in Jalen that just isn’t there? It’s like he doesn’t want to admit he was wrong about Jalen and the DT/spread experiment. His reaction at the end of the NC was more like a fan than a coach imo. Sort of like a “y’all want to do it your way have at it I will tell you so after it’s over” shock when you’re wrong.

After seeing that I cant understand why we are still debating this.

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Jalen was a great fit in Kiffin's system because the whole system revolved around spread runs, short throws, and deep balls. Jalen fit the system so well in fact that he threw for nearly 3000yds with a 63% completion rate, ran for a shade under 1000yds, and accounted for 36TD's. I don't care if he was constantly bailed out by his receivers on underthrown balls, if he achieved those stats mainly against weaker opponents, or if he was carried to a 13-1 record by great defenses. Those are still incredible stats for any QB, especially a true frosh. Did Jalen execute the system perfectly? Absolutely not, but neither did Tua in his brief stints last year. (To be clear, This has nothing to do with promoting Jalen over Tua in the competition. It's merely a reminder of how Jalen performed under Kiffin)

With all that said, my issue with your statement isn't your assessment of Jalen's liabilities. It is entirely with your exaggeration on the impact he had on the team going through 3 OC's in the span of a little over a season. You say that Kiffin; "Mailed in the last half of the season because he saw what Jalen was." That makes no sense though as Kiffin was very open in his support for Hurts throughout the season. Kiffin also left for a promotion, not a lateral move. Therefore I don't see how who the quarterback is would have mattered to him. I'll sum up my point with this though; If Hurts decided to transfer, do you honestly think that Kiffin wouldn't allow him to come to FAU? That seems incredibly far-fetched considering the relationship they obviously have.

You've already acknowledged Sark was a headcase. We all know this, so I won't waste time on him. Still, he needed to rehab his image, and he chose to do it in the NFL where he undoubtedly made more money to do the same job. I don't see how it's fair to pin this on Jalen considering that Sark has never said word against him.

I will absolutely agree that Jalen made Daboll's system look far worse at times than it actually was. They were never a fit together, but I put that more on the coach than the player. Part of the OC's job description is to make their system fit the players they have. Instead, Daboll spent the season trying to fit a square quarterback into a round playbook and it caused nothing but frustration. It is my belief that he was a large part of the reason why we saw Jalen's confidence decreasing throughout the season. That could be part of the reason why CNS hasn't completely closed the book on the QB competition. What if Jalen meshes better with Locksley Than Tua? Saban is going to play the guy that gives us the best chance to win. We assume for good reasons that will be Tua, but Saban isn't paid $10mil a year to assume.

The last thing I'll say is that it is grossly unfair to blame Jalen for our recruiting woes last year. Is it his fault we pulled a much weaker group of D-Linemen and linebackers than we typically do? I could understand your point if you were pointing fingers for our misses at WR or RB last year, but it's asinine to blame anyone other than the coaching staff for our class as a whole. (It would seem that Saban would agree with me considering he replaced almost the entire coaching staff after winning a championship. Just a thought)

 

[RedWave]

Jalen was a great fit in Kiffin's system because the whole system revolved around spread runs, short throws, and deep balls. Jalen fit the system so well in fact that he threw for nearly 3000yds with a 63% completion rate, ran for a shade under 1000yds, and accounted for 36TD's. I don't care if he was constantly bailed out by his receivers on underthrown balls, if he achieved those stats mainly against weaker opponents, or if he was carried to a 13-1 record by great defenses. Those are still incredible stats for any QB, especially a true frosh. Did Jalen execute the system perfectly? Absolutely not, but neither did Tua in his brief stints last year. (To be clear, This has nothing to do with promoting Jalen over Tua in the competition. It's merely a reminder of how Jalen performed under Kiffin)

The last thing I'll say is that it is grossly unfair to blame Jalen for our recruiting woes last year. Is it his fault we pulled a much weaker group of D-Linemen and linebackers than we typically do? I could understand your point if you were pointing fingers for our misses at WR or RB last year, but it's asinine to blame anyone other than the coaching staff for our class as a whole. (It would seem that Saban would agree with me considering he replaced almost the entire coaching staff after winning a championship. Just a thought)

Deleted the middle part because I mostly agree with you through that section. I totally disagree with you on the rest though. Jalen underthrowing passes is far more of an issue than you make it out to be, and his yards thrown is probably much more about those little screens that drove us crazy to watch at times than his arm doing a lot of work. We have seen way too many examples of how things do not go well when his arm has to do the work to think otherwise.

As for the recruiting, I see where you are coming from. But recruiting is also a bit about momentum. You get one player and that gets the attention of more recruits who now want to come to this program or that because so-and-so is going there. Jalen's play was not going to do a single thing to persuade any offensive players to come, that point can't be argued. But not getting that momentum likely did hurt us a bit with the defensive players as well. We might be overstating it a bit on our side, but you are not giving it enough weight either.

As for Kiffin's offense revolving around spread runs, etc., I guess I need to go way back in time and watch some of his offenses pre-Alabama. I do not recall his QB running so much when he was at other teams, and I do not think he did it much with Coker. I think Lane runs what he needs to run based on what his players can do. It is something I give him credit for. That offense that Jalen ran under Kiffin is, to me, Kiffin letting Jalen just do what he was good at, not Jalen fitting in with what Kiffin wanted him to be able to do. When you have a QB who can't read a defense or throw the ball down the field, you do exactly what Kiffin did. Doesn't mean he liked having to do it.

 

[gtgilbert]

Jalen was a great fit in Kiffin's system because the whole system revolved around spread runs, short throws, and deep balls. Jalen fit the system so well in fact that he threw for nearly 3000yds with a 63% completion rate, ran for a shade under 1000yds, and accounted for 36TD's. I don't care if he was constantly bailed out by his receivers on underthrown balls, if he achieved those stats mainly against weaker opponents, or if he was carried to a 13-1 record by great defenses. Those are still incredible stats for any QB, especially a true frosh. Did Jalen execute the system perfectly? Absolutely not, but neither did Tua in his brief stints last year. (To be clear, This has nothing to do with promoting Jalen over Tua in the competition. It's merely a reminder of how Jalen performed under Kiffin)

With all that said, my issue with your statement isn't your assessment of Jalen's liabilities. It is entirely with your exaggeration on the impact he had on the team going through 3 OC's in the span of a little over a season. You say that Kiffin; "Mailed in the last half of the season because he saw what Jalen was." That makes no sense though as Kiffin was very open in his support for Hurts throughout the season. Kiffin also left for a promotion, not a lateral move. Therefore I don't see how who the quarterback is would have mattered to him. I'll sum up my point with this though; If Hurts decided to transfer, do you honestly think that Kiffin wouldn't allow him to come to FAU? That seems incredibly far-fetched considering the relationship they obviously have.

You've already acknowledged Sark was a headcase. We all know this, so I won't waste time on him. Still, he needed to rehab his image, and he chose to do it in the NFL where he undoubtedly made more money to do the same job. I don't see how it's fair to pin this on Jalen considering that Sark has never said word against him.

I will absolutely agree that Jalen made Daboll's system look far worse at times than it actually was. They were never a fit together, but I put that more on the coach than the player. Part of the OC's job description is to make their system fit the players they have. Instead, Daboll spent the season trying to fit a square quarterback into a round playbook and it caused nothing but frustration. It is my belief that he was a large part of the reason why we saw Jalen's confidence decreasing throughout the season. That could be part of the reason why CNS hasn't completely closed the book on the QB competition. What if Jalen meshes better with Locksley Than Tua? Saban is going to play the guy that gives us the best chance to win. We assume for good reasons that will be Tua, but Saban isn't paid $10mil a year to assume.

The last thing I'll say is that it is grossly unfair to blame Jalen for our recruiting woes last year. Is it his fault we pulled a much weaker group of D-Linemen and linebackers than we typically do? I could understand your point if you were pointing fingers for our misses at WR or RB last year, but it's asinine to blame anyone other than the coaching staff for our class as a whole. (It would seem that Saban would agree with me considering he replaced almost the entire coaching staff after winning a championship. Just a thought)

Couple of points on the statement I bolded:

1. yes - the coaches have to try to adapt to the players they have, but that means ALL the players, not just one of them. We had a roster last year with FIVE potential top round Wrs on the field, and several others with NFL talent, plus 4-5 RBs with NFL talent. An offense not designed to get them the ball as much as possible is a disservice to the entire TEAM.

2. You imply that Daboll didn't make adjustments at all to better fit Jalen, but that's not true. This thread has the quotes from Saban where they disclosed how they changed the reads and progressions, limiting reads to a single side of the field, to try to help Jalen. Consider that change, and then think about how if you are Calvin Ridley, with first round talent, and you know you are lined up on the side of the field that jalen isn't even going to read.

3. Jalen had the same issues with under/over/late throws and missing reads with Kiffin as he did Daboll. Watch that video again of the first season. It's not a problem of square QB in a round hole offense - it's an overall issue with making reads, hitting progressions, and putting the ball where it can be caught, and jalen struggled mightily with this. There were times Kiffin started to put his arms up for a TD (remember that with Blake Sims and Coker) because he'd called the perfect play, and Jalen either didn't throw the ball, or threw it where no one could catch it. It only appeared to be a little worse with Daboll because he took out the jet sweeps that padded the numbers. He likely did that because even at the end of Jalens first season their effectiveness was being significantly limited to the point that I, along with many others, wanted that play ripped out of the playbook.

 

[BamaHoosier]

Deleted the middle part because I mostly agree with you through that section. I totally disagree with you on the rest though. Jalen underthrowing passes is far more of an issue than you make it out to be, and his yards thrown is probably much more about those little screens that drove us crazy to watch at times than his arm doing a lot of work. We have seen way too many examples of how things do not go well when his arm has to do the work to think otherwise.

As for the recruiting, I see where you are coming from. But recruiting is also a bit about momentum. You get one player and that gets the attention of more recruits who now want to come to this program or that because so-and-so is going there. Jalen's play was not going to do a single thing to persuade any offensive players to come, that point can't be argued. But not getting that momentum likely did hurt us a bit with the defensive players as well. We might be overstating it a bit on our side, but you are not giving it enough weight either.

For starters, I think our opinions are more aligned than you think. I find it curious that you use of the term; “my side/your side.” We are on the same side here and that is the side of wanting what is equates to winning football. The opinions we’ve derived by our own analysis of what we’ve observed is just a bit different.

I defended Jalen not as an effort to align with Team Jalen or Team Tua. My personal opinion is that Tua is our future and Jalen is our past. I want to make that abundantly clear.

What I find absolutely bizarre is the complete disregard for the positives Hurts has given the program. He’s 24-2 and taken us to two championship games. I mean the kid has been responsible for nearly 7000 yards and 60+ TD’s in only 2 years. He’s already statistically joined the elite QBs in Bama history and he’s not even an upper classman yet. Even if you think we’ve accomplished what we have in spite of Jalen, those numbers have been nothing to sneeze at.

I absolutely concur there is a natural talent gap between him and Tua. I also admit Jalen was more of a hindrance than a help at times last year. Still, there was a sizable drop off in his performance from year 1 to year 2. That could partially be attributed to system, physical limitations, mental limitations, but is likely a combination of all of the above. Yet the positives of what he has done has largely been written off.

This is a topic that has been beaten to death, and my honest intent isn’t to debate it farther. I only am trying to express my feelings that Jalen is due at least a measure of respect and gratitude for what he has accomplished whether he remains with the team or not.


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[RedWave]

What I find absolutely bizarre is the complete disregard for the positives Hurts has given the program. He’s 24-2 and taken us to two championship games. I mean the kid has been responsible for nearly 7000 yards and 60+ TD’s in only 2 years. He’s already statistically joined the elite QBs in Bama history and he’s not even an upper classman yet. Even if you think we’ve accomplished what we have in spite of Jalen, those numbers have been nothing to sneeze at.

I would say the team got there in spite of, not because of, Jalen. Too many of his yards have come running the ball. He is a talented running, to be sure, and we do need someone who can make that play when needed, but many of his rushing yards gained were the result of him not making a throw or calling his own number on a read option rather than give to the RB. I think if you look at the totals the way you have, they paint a much different picture than what Jalen really delivers for this team. I have never said he was untalented, or a bad kid, or anything of that nature. But I can see that he is simply incapable of being an effective passer. Don't look at the passing yards. Look at how far the ball went from the moment he released it until it touched the receiver's hands. If that is less than a few yards, the receiver gets more credit for the gain, and even though it shows on the QB's stats, it doesn't count in a real evaluation. And I do find it hard to believe you are not concerned with the underthrows. I think the guy in the video nailed it, even though he was kidding, that the defensive backs are better off letting the WR burn them, since you know Jalen is going to underthrow it and give you a chance at an INT.

As for the my side/your side part, I was referring to what each of us thinks in terms of his effect on recruiting. At the end of the day, I fall on the side that wants Bama to win, as I think most of us here do. In this case, I do say that our team has done the winning, and not the QB, though way too many people want to give the QB credit for them. Look, I love me some Jay Barker, but he is not the reason we won it all in 1992.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Just watched the Bama-Vandy game from last season again (one of those edited, 'under 30 minutes' vids) paying closer attention to the QB play. The difference in accuracy and timing was stunning.

 

[BamaMoon]

Just watched the Bama-Vandy game from last season again (one of those edited, 'under 30 minutes' vids) paying closer attention to the QB play. The difference in accuracy and timing was stunning.

That was the game I was convinced Tua "had it." The amazing play he made in that game was when the light officially went on for me!

 

[81usaf92]

I remember reading somewhere reading that Bill Parcels told Phil Simms that “ If you DONT throw an interception today then I’ll bench you because anybody can dink and dunk without throwing a pick but no one can win without throwing the ball verticle.” I’m seeing a lot of truth in that after watching the NCG. UGA and Kirby never were the same after Tua missed Calvin on that first long attempt.

 

[RedWave]

Just watched the Bama-Vandy game from last season again (one of those edited, 'under 30 minutes' vids) paying closer attention to the QB play. The difference in accuracy and timing was stunning.

To be fair, and it has been mentioned, there are throws by Tua that are a little short of the receiver here and there. Maybe not leading them quite as much as he needed to or whatever. But he is accurate far more often than Jalen seems to be, unless you give Jalen a jet screen pass to complete and want to compare that to longer throws made by Tua.

 

[RedWave]

I remember reading somewhere reading that Bill Parcels told Phil Simms that “ If you DONT throw an interception today then I’ll bench you because anybody can dink and dunk without throwing a pick but no one can win without throwing the ball verticle.” I’m seeing a lot of truth in that after watching the NCG. UGA and Kirby never were the same after Tua missed Calvin on that first long attempt.

Interesting about Parcells, if true.

 

[crimsonaudio]

To be fair, and it has been mentioned, there are throws by Tua that are a little short of the receiver here and there. Maybe not leading them quite as much as he needed to or whatever. But he is accurate far more often than Jalen seems to be, unless you give Jalen a jet screen pass to complete and want to compare that to longer throws made by Tua.

Sure, Tua's not perfect. But after watching so many wildly thrown balls by hurts, Tua looked like an NFL HOFer out there. No exaggeration.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Interesting about Parcells, if true.

"I’ll never forget the opening game of the ’84 season against the Philadelphia Eagles. Coach was standing at the locker room door saying things to players as they walked by. As I passed him, he says, “Hey Simms, if you don’t throw at least two interceptions today, you’re not taking enough chances.” I’m thinking, “Wow! What a thing to say to a quarterback!” It was his way of giving me a quick message to try to take the pressure off so I could relax and go out and play to the best of my ability."

https://nypost.com/2013/07/30/simms-parcells-was-demanding-but-it-made-giants-champs/