Hamas attacks Israel - Part 2

[crimsonaudio]

In a previous interview with Fox News Digital, John Spencer, chair of Urban Warfare Studies Modern War Institute at West Point and an author of multiple books on the subject of urban warfare, said that in contrast to claims from Western leaders, including Biden, the "steps that Israel has taken to prevent casualties is historic in comparison to all these other wars."

"Despite the numbers, Israel is setting the bar very high on civilian harm mitigation steps," Spencer, who is also host of the Urban Warfare Project podcast and serves as the chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the New York-based Madison Policy Forum, told Fox News Digital in February.

He outlined how the Israeli military took measures that no other military, including the U.S., had previously taken during war such as calling and texting individuals to warn them of a forthcoming air strike and sharing maps with plans for military maneuvers in certain areas.

 

[92tide]

If Hamas surrendered, came out, dropped their weapons, and stood trial for their crimes, it would all end tomorrow.
No more violence, no hunger, rebuilding could start, the Palestinians could have an actual chance to vote honestly for leadership not bent on killing Jews.
The only thing preventing a lasting and just peace from breaking out is Hamas surrendering.

i am pretty much in agreement on this. sadly, i don't see them surrendering and i don't know if israel can actually wipe them out.

 

[AWRTR]

From the linked article:
"almost 50% less women and children killed than previously reported"

"the organization, which admits to relying on figures from the Hamas-run Ministry of Health in Gaza"

So much for the United Nations being some kind of beacon of truth.......

The UN is an incredibly corrupt organization. We should send the whole thing to Europe tear the building down in NYC and salt the earth.

 

[JDCrimson]

Surrendering is not an option for Hamas. In their religion-culture its likely considered sin at best humiliation to surrender. Israel will have to surgically kill them all. But they cant do that they way they are doing it. It should be done the same way tracked down Osama Bin Laden. Not in a theater of war.

Netanyahu is only pursuing this course to maintain his grip on power to shield him from felony corruption prosecution and to poison any opportunity for a 2-state solution.

i am pretty much in agreement on this. sadly, i don't see them surrendering and i don't know if israel can actually wipe them out.

 

[81usaf92]

If Hamas surrendered, came out, dropped their weapons, and stood trial for their crimes, it would all end tomorrow.
No more violence, no hunger, rebuilding could start, the Palestinians could have an actual chance to vote honestly for leadership not bent on killing Jews.
The only thing preventing a lasting and just peace from breaking out is Hamas surrendering.

Well Bibi ain’t helping the situation either. Ignoring the Saudis and US intelligence reports on the attack really kinda makes it appear he wanted the fight as well. Only 3 entities won and they are Bibi, Hamas, and Ayatollah and everyone else got screwed.

The problem is that the situation is far more complex than 90% of Americans think. I think everyone can agree Hamas is bad, but everyone can also agree that the Taliban was bad too. But no one wants to ask why they exist in the first place and why they continue to exist. Those questions probably are very uncomfortable to find the answer to.

 

[JDCrimson]

Well, world peace is not lucrative. War and the prospect of war is unimaginably profitable. Flashback to how great the international economy was in the 90s... Except for the military.

 

[NationalTitles18]

From CNN. The report is from our state department.

The Biden administration said Friday that it is “reasonable to assess” that US weapons have been used by Israeli forces in Gaza in ways that are “inconsistent” with international humanitarian law but stopped short of officially saying Israel violated the law.

The report which was drafted by the State Department said that investigations into potential violations are ongoing but noted that the US does “not have complete information to verify” whether the US weapons “were specifically used” in alleged violations of international humanitarian law.

“Given the nature of the conflict in Gaza, with Hamas seeking to hide behind civilian populations and infrastructure and expose them to Israeli military action, as well as the lack of USG personnel on the ground in Gaza, it is difficult to assess or reach conclusive findings on individual incidents. Nevertheless, given Israel’s significant reliance on U.S.-made defense articles, it is reasonable to assess that defense articles covered under NSM-20 have been used by Israeli security forces since October 7 in instances inconsistent with its IHL obligations or with established best practices for mitigating civilian harm,” the report said.

The report, which covers the period from the outbreak of the war with Hamas on October 7 to late April, did not find that Israel has withheld humanitarian aid to Gaza in violation of US law.

 

[92tide]

Well Bibi ain’t helping the situation either. Ignoring the Saudis and US intelligence reports on the attack really kinda makes it appear he wanted the fight as well. Only 3 entities won and they are Bibi, Hamas, and Ayatollah and everyone else got screwed.

The problem is that the situation is far more complex than 90% of Americans think. I think everyone can agree Hamas is bad, but everyone can also agree that the Taliban was bad too. But no one wants to ask why they exist in the first place and why they continue to exist. Those are questions probably are very uncomfortable to find the answer to.

in my previous job, the family we worked with in dubai was jordanian/palestenian. the father was 7 when they were moved into refuge camps in jordan (i think) in 1949 and he eventually became a fruit trader and set up shop in what was going to become the uae in 1972. i got to hear a different perspective on a lot of middle eastern issues and history. most of the folks we dealt directly with were c and e muslims at best, but they would still provide a lot of good info on islam

 

[NationalTitles18]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html

The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on October 7.

The clarification comes after the UN humanitarian agency OCHA (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs) published a report on May 8 with revised data regarding the number of Palestinian casualties in the war. The UN agency in its report reduced the number of women and children believed to have been killed in the war by nearly half.

The number was reduced because the UN says it is now relying on the number of deceased women and children whose names and other identifying details have been fully documented, rather than the total number of women and children killed. The ministry says bodies that arrive at hospitals get counted in the overall death count.

UN spokesperson Farhan Haq told a daily briefing at the UN that the health ministry in Gaza recently published two separate death tolls – an overall death toll and a total number of identified fatalities. In the UN report, only the total number of fatalities whose identities (such as name and date of birth) have been documented was published, leading to confusion.


According to Haq, the ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry.

The health authority in Gaza noted that the documentation process of casualties’ full identification details is still ongoing, Haq added.

Two officials from the Palestinian Ministry of Health have told CNN that although the ministry keeps a separate death toll for identified and unidentified individuals, the total number of people killed remains unchanged.

The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added.

 

[81usaf92]

in my previous job, the family we worked with in dubai was jordanian/palestenian. the father was 7 when they were moved into refuge camps in jordan (i think) in 1949 and he eventually became a fruit trader and set up shop in what was going to become the uae in 1972. i got to hear a different perspective on a lot of middle eastern issues and history. most of the folks we dealt directly with were c and e muslims at best, but they would still provide a lot of good info on islam

Well a lot of people tend to lump everyone in with each other when it pertains to the Middle East. Basically the average American understands only Muslim vs Jew as the problem. When you start to peel it away then you realize that calling one side Muslim is way too broad as there are probably just as much racial hatred within Islam towards each other as there is a unified hatred towards Israel. Then you get to the Shia and Sunni issues. Even the Palestinians are deeply divided amongst what Gaza wants and what the West Bank wants. So it’s far more complicated than just Israel vs the whole Islamic World at play here. To be honest i think the Saudis would have wished that this attack didn’t happen or was thwarted because now they have to be on the same side as the Persians and Turks.

 

[Tidewater]

i am pretty much in agreement on this. sadly, i don't see them surrendering and i don't know if israel can actually wipe them out.

Machiavelli told a new ruler that, if he is going to do something harsh, best to to do it early and get the nasty bit over quickly.
Israel has not listened to this and now is paying the price (as are the Palestinians).

 

[Tidewater]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html

The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on October 7.

The clarification comes after the UN humanitarian agency OCHA (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs) published a report on May 8 with revised data regarding the number of Palestinian casualties in the war. The UN agency in its report reduced the number of women and children believed to have been killed in the war by nearly half.

The number was reduced because the UN says it is now relying on the number of deceased women and children whose names and other identifying details have been fully documented, rather than the total number of women and children killed. The ministry says bodies that arrive at hospitals get counted in the overall death count.

UN spokesperson Farhan Haq told a daily briefing at the UN that the health ministry in Gaza recently published two separate death tolls – an overall death toll and a total number of identified fatalities. In the UN report, only the total number of fatalities whose identities (such as name and date of birth) have been documented was published, leading to confusion.


According to Haq, the ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry.

The health authority in Gaza noted that the documentation process of casualties’ full identification details is still ongoing, Haq added.

Two officials from the Palestinian Ministry of Health have told CNN that although the ministry keeps a separate death toll for identified and unidentified individuals, the total number of people killed remains unchanged.

The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added.

The Palestinian Ministry of Health reports exactly what Hamas orders them to report. Any deviation results in the death of the reporter and his family.
The figures could be true, but might be wildly inaccurate.
As ever, we have to ask, "cui bono?"
Do large civilian casualty figures result in international pressure against Israel to stop the fighting and agree a ceasefire? And which side would benefit from that?

Hausdorff then provides the clearest explanatiuon of the proprotionality principle in Just War Theory.

The principle of "proprtionality is not about comparing civilian casualties on side A and those on Side B."
It is about, "If we strike target X, what military value will that strike have? And what amount of collateral damage might that strike also inflict? Is the one worth the other?"
That is what proportionality is about.

 

[NationalTitles18]

The Palestinian Ministry of Health reports exactly what Hamas orders them to report. Any deviation results in the death of the reporter and his family.
The figures could be true, but might be wildly inaccurate.
As ever, we have to ask, "cui bono?"
Do large civilian casualty figures result in international pressure against Israel to stop the fighting and agree a ceasefire? And which side would benefit from that?

Hausdorff then provides the clearest explanatiuon of the proprotionality principle in Just War Theory.

The principle of "proprtionality is not about comparing civilian casualties on side A and those on Side B."
It is about, "If we strike target X, what military value will that strike have? And what amount of collateral damage might that strike also inflict? Is the one worth the other?"
That is what proportionality is about.

Not to be too curt, but should I forward this to the state department? They seem to have a problem with some of what Israel is doing.

 

[dtgreg]

Just like his idiot Father-In-Law: saying the quiet part out loud. This is how evil and cynical our rulers are.

Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law, praises 'very valuable' potential of Gaza's 'waterfront property'

About 1.5 million displaced Palestinians are sheltering in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, as Israel looks to eliminate Hamas following the militant group’s deadly Oct. 7 attack.

apnews.com

 

[Tidewater]

Not to be too curt, but should I forward this to the state department? They seem to have a problem with some of what Israel is doing.

I had already seen the article you posted.

Not to be too curt, but should I forward this to the state department? They seem to have a problem with some of what Israel is doing.

I read that report, but it is a little short on details. If a combatant terrorist group is deliberately hiding behind civilians, I am not sure specifically how Israel, the other combatant, can strike the Hamas combatants without also hitting the civilians, which is Hamas' entire point. I am not sure DoS has any advice for the Israeli military except, "Don't shoot Hamas."

So we are back to the German's "Bunker 47 Lutheran Church" at Normandy: German soldiers get to fire out of the bunker-church but the Allied soldiers cannot shoot back because, well, it's a church. Darn it!
Or Widerstandsnest 55 Medical Facility:

Put a medical treatment facility (protected under Law of Armed Conflict) in a machine gun position. The Allies cannot shoot at a medical facility. German troops can fire out, but the Allied troops cannot shoot back. Voila, instant invulnerability.
Of note, these are both AI generated images because not even the Nazis would do what Hamas is now doing.

 

[NationalTitles18]

I had already seen the article you posted.

I read that report, but it is a little short on details. If a combatant terrorist group is deliberately hiding behind civilians, I am not sure specifically how Israel, the other combatant, can strike the Hamas combatants without also hitting the civilians, which is Hamas' entire point. I am not sure DoS has any advice for the Israeli military except, "Don't shoot Hamas."
View attachment 42322
So we are back to the German's "Bunker 47 Lutheran Church" at Normandy: German soldiers get to fire out of the bunker-church but the Allied soldiers cannot shoot back because, well, it's a church. Darn it!
Or Widerstandsnest 55 Medical Facility:
View attachment 42323
Put a medical treatment facility (protected under Law of Armed Conflict) in a machine gun position. The Allies cannot shoot at a medical facility. German troops can fire out, but the Allied troops cannot shoot back. Voila, instant invulnerability.
Of note, these are both AI generated images because not even the Nazis would do what Hamas is now doing.

Yeah. Hamas is terrible. I agree. They have proven that over and over again.

And Israel has a right to defend itself. No dispute.

But the state department, which has more access to more information than I do by far, feels that Israel is not meeting the standard for a non-terrorist state. Despite not revealing a lot of detail, it's an important finding.

Criticism of Israel's actions does not mean one supports Hamas or that one does not support Israel's right to defend itself.

I have much higher expectations for Israel than I do a terrorist organization. Perfection is not really attainable, but callous disregard for "collateral damage" (civilian casualties) should not be tolerated.

Again, the state department feels they have not met the standard in mitigation efforts. Everyone understands civilian deaths occur in war and Hamas deliberately places civilians in danger. Israel has a difficult line to walk. I'm all for them doing a better job.

 

[81usaf92]

I had already seen the article you posted.

I read that report, but it is a little short on details. If a combatant terrorist group is deliberately hiding behind civilians, I am not sure specifically how Israel, the other combatant, can strike the Hamas combatants without also hitting the civilians, which is Hamas' entire point. I am not sure DoS has any advice for the Israeli military except, "Don't shoot Hamas."
View attachment 42322
So we are back to the German's "Bunker 47 Lutheran Church" at Normandy: German soldiers get to fire out of the bunker-church but the Allied soldiers cannot shoot back because, well, it's a church. Darn it!
Or Widerstandsnest 55 Medical Facility:
View attachment 42323
Put a medical treatment facility (protected under Law of Armed Conflict) in a machine gun position. The Allies cannot shoot at a medical facility. German troops can fire out, but the Allied troops cannot shoot back. Voila, instant invulnerability.
Of note, these are both AI generated images because not even the Nazis would do what Hamas is now doing.

When you live in an area the size of Birmingham with a million and a half more people then it’s very difficult not to back the people preaching for more land over the one that is effectively blocking access for you leave and has a war mongering leader.

Hamas is terrible for Gaza and keeps the fire burning, but at the same time Israel (Bibi’s regime in particular) does a lot in raising support within Gaza for them with many things they do as well.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

When you live in an area the size of Birmingham with a million and a half more people then it’s very difficult not to back the people preaching for more land over the one that is effectively blocking access for you leave and has a war mongering leader.

Hamas is terrible for Gaza and keeps the fire burning, but at the same time Israel (Bibi’s regime in particular) does a lot in raising support within Gaza for them with many things they do as well.

Bibi has been a disaster for Israel, in his attempt to stay out of jail. Total elimination of Hamas is a pipe dream. There is no way to distinguish a Hamas member from any other Arab. They just reassemble themselves and recover their buried arms. The fact that fighting has now broken out in northern Gaza proves my point. Israel had supposedly "cleansed" that area of Hamas. Meanwhile, last night on TV, they had images of Israeli soldiers destroying UN food and other relief supplies. When this pattern of behavior started, I thought to myself that Israel would end up a pariah nation. I think you can subtract the future tense now...

 

[81usaf92]

Bibi has been a disaster for Israel, in his attempt to stay out of jail. Total elimination of Hamas is a pipe dream. There is no way to distinguish a Hamas member from any other Arab. They just reassemble themselves and recover their buried arms. The fact that fighting has now broken out in northern Gaza proves my point. Israel had supposedly "cleansed" that area of Hamas. Meanwhile, last night on TV, they had images of Israeli soldiers destroying UN food and other relief supplies. When this pattern of behavior started, I thought to myself that Israel would end up a pariah nation. I think you can subtract the future tense now...

Bibi also hates the fact that he will always be seen as the lesser brother in the Netanyahu family despite achieving supreme power.

None of this will have a good outcome until he is ousted and more pragmatic voices start to win the argument. You can’t just kill an idea by military force when you continuously keep stoking the fires of resistance. We tried that for 20 years in Afghanistan and it all reverted back to pre 9/11 society within days.

 

[AWRTR]

Yeah. Hamas is terrible. I agree. They have proven that over and over again.

And Israel has a right to defend itself. No dispute.

But the state department, which has more access to more information than I do by far, feels that Israel is not meeting the standard for a non-terrorist state. Despite not revealing a lot of detail, it's an important finding.

Criticism of Israel's actions does not mean one supports Hamas or that one does not support Israel's right to defend itself.

I have much higher expectations for Israel than I do a terrorist organization. Perfection is not really attainable, but callous disregard for "collateral damage" (civilian casualties) should not be tolerated.

Again, the state department feels they have not met the standard in mitigation efforts. Everyone understands civilian deaths occur in war and Hamas deliberately places civilians in danger. Israel has a difficult line to walk. I'm all for them doing a better job.

Walk me through what they should be doing so they “do a better job”.