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Hamas attacks Israel - Part 2

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Huckleberry said:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/na...-move-1-million-palestinians-libya-rcna207224

Trump administration working on plan to move 1 million Palestinians to Libya
Details are murky and no final agreement has been reached, but the plan is under serious enough consideration that the administration has discussed it with Libyan leadership.
Click to expand...
That is probably because Libya has no government to speak of to say, :"Heck no!"

Nobody with any sense wants the Palestinians in their country. They have bitten, sometimes savagely, every hand that has fed them.
 
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The Wall Street Journal obtained exclusive documents from within Gaza, which were verified by several Arab intelligence and diplomatic sources, about Hamas’s real intention behind the October 7 attacks. The Islamist group was primarily concerned with sabotaging the prospect of Saudi-Israeli normalization, which it felt would be a significant setback to itself and the Palestinian issue, despite promises by Saudi Arabia that Palestinian statehood would be a precondition of normalization, Hamas’s Sinwar and senior leadership did not trust Saudi promises and decided to activate attack plans that had been in the works for years.

Before using Gaza, Hamas wanted to escalate violence in the West Bank and Jerusalem to torpedo Saudi-Israeli normalization. But when that failed, the Gaza Strip became the fulcrum of the terror organizations’ hopes that it could undo what at the time seemed like an inevitability. Interestingly, the documents also revealed that Hamas advertised a job position or possible positions to include grassroots organizing against normalization with Israel and to employ tactics of boycott of entities that were in support of normalizing with Israel.

This is a massive and significant revelation that proves an incredibly disturbing fact and reality: October 7 was not about breaking the blockade, breaking out of the Gaza prison or “concentration camp,” responding to injustices in the West Bank or Jerusalem, or seeking to promote Palestinian rights and statehood. It was a very specific and nefarious political action by a deadly terror organization to derail a political development that it felt was not advantageous to its objectives.

This proves all Hamas’s critics right, that Gaza did not need to be destroyed on October 7 for the terrorist group to make a point. As many others and I have repeatedly stated, Gaza was a beautiful place that meant so much for its people, and Hamas could have made different choices to prevent the territory’s annihilation by the most far-right government in Israel’s history.

To all who incessantly excuse the terrorist organization: the evidence is before you to realize that your beloved “resistance” organization is a fraud and that justifications for October 7 that got 60,000 Palestinians killed are nothing but a web of lies by an ISIS-like Jihadi organization which is largely rejected by Palestinians in Gaza.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1923957163489206632
 
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Huckleberry said:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/na...-move-1-million-palestinians-libya-rcna207224

Trump administration working on plan to move 1 million Palestinians to Libya
Details are murky and no final agreement has been reached, but the plan is under serious enough consideration that the administration has discussed it with Libyan leadership.
Click to expand...
Worth remembering this. Bill Clinton says young people today hear that Yassar Arafat walked away from a peace deal giving them a Palestinian state with the capital in East Jerusalem, 96% of the West Bank (and 4% of Israel to compensate the Palestinians for the 4% of the West Bank). Arafat walked away from that deal. That was a tragedy for all concerned.
When young people hear that today, they cannot believe it.
 
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Tidewater said:
Worth remembering this. Bill Cliunton says young people today hear that Yassar Arafat walked away from a peace deal giving them a Palestinian state with the capital in East Jerusalem, 96% of the West Bank (and 4% of Israel to compensate the Palestinians for the 4% of the West Bank). Arafat walked away from that deal. That was a tragedy for all concerned.
When young people hear that today, they cannot believe it.
Click to expand...
I’m far from young, and don’t know where my attention was, but I didn’t know that.

The hatred is so strong that I’m not sure it would have precluded ongoing strife, but it is fascinating.
 
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Tidewater said:
Worth remembering this. Bill Clinton says young people today hear that Yassar Arafat walked away from a peace deal giving them a Palestinian state with the capital in East Jerusalem, 96% of the West Bank (and 4% of Israel to compensate the Palestinians for the 4% of the West Bank). Arafat walked away from that deal. That was a tragedy for all concerned.
When young people hear that today, they cannot believe it.
Click to expand...
It was explained to me that had Arafat (the unofficial “ugliest man in the world”) taken that deal, he would have been a dead man. I assumed that to be true, but what are your thoughts?
 
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4Q Basket Case said:
I’m far from young, and don’t know where my attention was, but I didn’t know that.

The hatred is so strong that I’m not sure it would have precluded ongoing strife, but it is fascinating.
Click to expand...
There were a lot of post-mortems on that. The explanation I tend to agree with is that Yassar Arafat got a lot of money and a cushy lifestyle because he was a "revolutionary" and peace would have meant the end of that status. He would have had to govern instead of being a revolutionary and he was not ready (or able) to make that transition.
It was a sad missed opportunity but the Palestinian people have had a lot of missed opportunities. Indeed, it is the defining characteristic of Palestinians collectively to make bad choices.
 
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Tidewater said:
Worth remembering this. Bill Clinton says young people today hear that Yassar Arafat walked away from a peace deal giving them a Palestinian state with the capital in East Jerusalem, 96% of the West Bank (and 4% of Israel to compensate the Palestinians for the 4% of the West Bank). Arafat walked away from that deal. That was a tragedy for all concerned.
When young people hear that today, they cannot believe it.
Click to expand...
Proof that the palestenians don't care about peace.
 
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CrimsonJazz said:
It was explained to me that had Arafat (the unofficial “ugliest man in the world”) taken that deal, he would have been a dead man. I assumed that to be true, but what are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Okay, more serious response.
I am not sure Arafat would have been murdered by refusenik Palestinians had he signed, but maybe.
Michael Collins, the Irish insurgent, was killed by IRA refuseniks because he signed a deal that put Ireland on the path to independence (but left Ulster in British hands). The refuseniks said it was better to have no deal and hold out for the entire island, but Mick got the southern 26 counties, even if he had to leave behind the 6 counties of Ulster. So the radicals in the IRA murdered Colllins.

I think the dynamic of revolutionaries loving their status as revolutionaries and not wanting to come to any deal transcends time and place. The Bolshevik-Menshevik split, the IRA vs. the Irish Free State (Collins wing), the PLO and Hamas/Fatah. Revolutionaries believe they will get "the whole thing" and disdain moderates who will settle for most of the thing if that also means the revolutionaries must return to normal life and cease being revolutionaries.

As it was, Arafat died in bed four years after refusing Clinton's deal.
 
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The bad choices the Palestinians have made:
1948: offered half of Israel-Palestine, the Palestinians said, "Nope. We're going to murder all the Jews and take the whole thing." Bad choice.
1951, Palestinians murder King Abdullah of Jordan. Bad choice.
1970, Palestinian attempt to overthrow Jordan which had taken them in as refugees. Bad choice.
1970s, the PLO, ejected from Jordan, headed to Lebanon and promptly got embroiled in (precipitated?) the civili war in Lebanon. Bad call. The Lebanese kicked them out in 1982
When Saddam Hussein offered Kuwait to the Palestinians as a homeland, Yasser Arafat publicly embraced Hussein just before the world kicked Hussein's backside. Bad call. Palestinians were ejected from Kuwait in 1991.
IN 2000, offered Gaza and the West Bank, Arafat walked away from the deal. Bad call.
When the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, the Palestinians promptly elected Hamas. Bad choice. It was the last election the Palestinians in Gaza have been allowed to hold.
After years of non-occupation, Hamas decided in 2023 to invade Israel and murder hundred of Israelis, including women and children, and kidnap others. Bad choice.

Palestinians just have a long track record of making bad decisions.
 
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Its On A Slab said:
As the late Israeli diplomat Abba Eban once said of the Palestinians: ""(they) never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
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Yeah, it's kinda sad, actually. If they had taken advantage of couple of their opportunities, they'd have their own country by now.

I do not have any animus against the Palestinians (the ones I worked with were nice enough), but they have to rid themselves of the notion that they are going to murder all the Jews and take back all the land. It is ugly and racist and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been sacrificed on that ugkly altar. If I could advise them, I'd say, "Jettison that racist garbage, become a country, and get on with your lives."
 
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Tidewater said:
Yeah, it's kinda sad, actually. If they had taken advantage of couple of their opportunities, they'd have their own country by now.

I do not have any animus against the Palestinians (the ones I worked with were nice enough), but they have to rid themselves of the notion that they are going to murder all the Jews and take back all the land. It is ugly and racist and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been sacrificed on that ugkly altar. If I could advise them, I'd say, "Jettison that racist garbage, become a country, and get on with your lives."
Click to expand...

There is enough blame on either side. The October 7th attack was brutal in and of itself. Rapes, murders, kidnappings. Yet the Israeli response has been even more devastating, and the continuing crisis is going to starve thousands of people. Hamas is to blame for a lot of this as well.

I read this week about the Congo/Rwanda crisis. Yet another place where we all have to realize how lucky we all are to have been born in a country like the US. We could have gotten the short straw and be born in Pyongyang, Kigali, Nanking or be Jewish in occupied Europe during WW2, Kabul.
 
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Tidewater said:
The bad choices the Palestinians have made:
1948: offered half of Israel-Palestine, the Palestinians said, "Nope. We're going to murder all the Jews and take the whole thing." Bad choice.
1951, Palestinians murder King Abdullah of Jordan. Bad choice.
1970, Palestinian attempt to overthrow Jordan which had taken them in as refugees. Bad choice.
1970s, the PLO, ejected from Jordan, headed to Lebanon and promptly got embroiled in (precipitated?) the civili war in Lebanon. Bad call. The Lebanese kicked them out in 1982
When Saddam Hussein offered Kuwait to the Palestinians as a homeland, Yasser Arafat publicly embraced Hussein just before the world kicked Hussein's backside. Bad call. Palestinians were ejected from Kuwait in 1991.
Offered Gaza and the West Bank, Arafat walked away from the deal. Bad call.
When the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, the Palestinians promptly elected Hamas. Bad choice. It was the last election the Palestinians in Gaza have been allowed to hold.
After years of non-occupation, Hamas decided in 2023 to invade Israel and murder hundred of Israelis, including women and children, and kidnap others. Bad choice.

Palestinians just have a long track record of making bad decisions.
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That's an almost incomprehensible string of failure.

Certainly seems to highlight the historical near-mental-retardation IQ levels of the palestinains:

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TIDE-HSV said:
I hate to put it this way, but it's part and parcel of their religion. Any territory once Islamic must become Islamic again. They haven't given up on Spain...
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I had heard that.
Maybe the Beothuk peoples of Newfoundland offer a useful example. The Beothuks had no concept of surrender. If the Beothuks declared war against you, the war continued until either you were all dead or they were. They declared war on the English in the 1700s.


The last known Beothuk died in 1829.
 
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Tidewater said:
Okay, more serious response.
I am not sure Arafat would have been murdered by refusenik Palestinians had he signed, but maybe.
Michael Collins, the Irish insurgent, was killed by IRA refuseniks because he signed a deal that put Ireland on the path to independence (but left Ulster in British hands). The refuseniks said it was better to have no deal and hold out for the entire island, but Mick got the southern 26 counties, even if he had to leave behind the 6 counties of Ulster. So the radicals in the IRA murdered Colllins.

I think the dynamic of revolutionaries loving their status as revolutionaries and not wanting to come to any deal transcends time and place. The Bolshevik-Menshevik split, the IRA vs. the Irish Free State (Collins wing), the PLO and Hamas/Fatah. Revolutionaries believe they will get "the whole thing" and disdain moderates who will settle for most of the thing if that also means the revolutionaries must return to normal life and cease being revolutionaries.

As it was, Arafat died in bed four years after refusing Clinton's deal.
Click to expand...

I was really bored one day and went on a Google search of past IRA leaders. Amazed at how many of them were killed by infighting amongst the various splinter groups. The British played upon this, turning informants, etc. Better they kill each other than Brits, I suppose.

The Hulu series Say Nothing highlights this. Gerry Adams plays a big part in the series, and his dubious nature I remember well from the times.
 
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