LGBTQ Issues: What will the public attitude be? (Pt 2)




 
NYT Gift Article

Justices Reject Colorado Law Banning ‘Conversion Therapy’ for L.G.B.T.Q. Minors​

Colorado and more than 20 other states restrict therapists from trying to change the gender identity or sexual orientation of L.G.B.T.Q. clients under the age of 18.




The Supreme Court decision is rather narrow in scope, but this is a serious issue. Conversion therapy is grooming and it’s exactly the kind of behavior far-right activists accuse schools of doing, only reversed. The other difference, of course, is that “conversion therapy” is a real and dangerous thing.
I thought this case would come up.
On the level of federalism, this is what the incorporation doctrine does for you.
A prohibition against the federal government doing something gets turned into a prohibition against the state doing that thing.

To depict this graphically, the Constitution's Article I lays out enumerated federal powers, prohibited federal actions, and prohibited state actions.
Delegated and denied.jpeg

The federal Constitution does not delegate any powers to the states (Box C above) because the states had them already, before there was a Constitution.

Incorporation takes prohibited federal actions and applies them against the states. This doctrine is incorrect in my view and was in fact invented out of whole cloth by the federal judiciary. The problem is that there are plenty of things the states can do that the federal government cannot. Federal judges incorporating the Bill of Rights run roughshod over the express provisions of the X Amendment.

If you disagree with this decision, you disagree with the incorporation doctrine. The Supreme Court took a prohibition preventing the federal government from doing a thing (compelling individuals' speech and prohibiting other speech) and applied it against the state of Colorado. This, however, runs afoul of Colorado's reserved rights.

Can Colorado, using the state's police power, tell licensed medical professionals that they cannot tell a minor boy he is in fact a boy? Such a statute may be inadvisable, but the Constitution delegates to the federal government (of which the Supreme Court is a part) no power to stop Colorado from adopting such a law. In the Philadelphia Convention of 1787, those favoring delegating to the federal government the power to veto a state law were defeated.

Colorado's state constitution may prohibit this law, but given a proper reading of the I and XIV Amendments of the federal Constitution, the Supreme Court should have said, "This court has no jurisdiction over this matter."

The bottom line is this case shows you what the incorporation doctrine does.
 
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I guess, (to finish my thought), does the state have the power to deny a medical license to a "doctor" who tells a patient, "We are going to treat your cancer by waving chicken bones over you bed at midnight each full moon." I think most would agree that the state has the power to deny a medical license to such a doctor. That person can still wave chicken bones over the patients bed, but he cannot call himself a state-licensed medical professional.
 
I guess, (to finish my thought), does the state have the power to deny a medical license to a "doctor" who tells a patient, "We are going to treat your cancer by waving chicken bones over you bed at midnight each full moon." I think most would agree that the state has the power to deny a medical license to such a doctor. That person can still wave chicken bones over the patients bed, but he cannot call himself a state-licensed medical professional.

But they can certainly tell them they need ivermectin... There is always some woo being proferred out there...

Addressing the issue of child predators and abusers... I suspect that the rates of abuse are pretty similar amongst the different populations. In any case it is a sickness and should be stamped out to the greatest extent possible.
 
I thought this case would come up.
On the level of federalism, this is what the incorporation doctrine does for you.
A prohibition against the federal government doing something gets turned into a prohibition against the state doing that thing.

To depict this graphically, the Constitution's Article I lays out enumerated federal powers, prohibited federal actions, and prohibited state actions.
View attachment 56631

The federal Constitution does not delegate any powers to the states (Box C above) because the states had them already, before there was a Constitution.

Incorporation takes prohibited federal actions and applies them against the states. This doctrine is incorrect in my view and was in fact invented out of whole cloth by the federal judiciary. The problem is that there are plenty of things the states can do that the federal government cannot. Federal judges incorporating the Bill of Rights run roughshod over the express provisions of the X Amendment.

If you disagree with this decision, you disagree with the incorporation doctrine. The Supreme Court took a prohibition preventing the federal government from doing a thing (compelling individuals' speech and prohibiting other speech) and applied it against the state of Colorado. This, however, runs afoul of Colorado's reserved rights.

Can Colorado, using the state's police power, tell licensed medical professionals that they cannot tell a minor boy he is in fact a boy? Such a statute may be inadvisable, but the Constitution delegates to the federal government (of which the Supreme Court is a part) no power to stop Colorado from adopting such a law. In the Philadelphia Convention of 1787, those favoring delegating to the federal government the power to veto a state law were defeated.

Colorado's state constitution may prohibit this law, but given a proper reading of the I and XIV Amendments of the federal Constitution, the Supreme Court should have said, "This court has no jurisdiction over this matter."

The bottom line is this case shows you what the incorporation doctrine does.
There is definitely truth in the history. The Bill of Rights originally limited only the federal government, and states did retain broad authority early on.

Where I am trying to understand the argument is how it fits with the Fourteenth Amendment. That amendment explicitly places limits on states, and the Supreme Court has interpreted “liberty” to include many of the rights in the Bill of Rights.

If incorporation is rejected entirely, would that mean states could also restrict things like speech, religion, press, or gun rights? Or is there a different way to distinguish which rights apply to states and which do not?

It’s clear you have a deeper understanding of this issue than I do, so I’d like further explanation if that’s ok.
 
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There is definitely truth in the history. The Bill of Rights originally limited only the federal government, and states did retain broad authority early on.

Where I am trying to understand the argument is how it fits with the Fourteenth Amendment. That amendment explicitly places limits on states, and the Supreme Court has interpreted “liberty” to include many of the rights in the Bill of Rights.

If incorporation is rejected entirely, would that mean states could also restrict things like speech, religion, press, or gun rights? Or is there a different way to distinguish which rights apply to states and which do not?

It’s clear you have a deeper understanding of this issue than I do, so I’d like further explanation if that’s ok.
Each state has a constitution as well. The Colorado state constitution stipulates:
  • The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination, shall forever hereafter be guaranteed; and no person shall be denied any civil or political right, privilege or capacity, on account of his opinions concerning religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be construed to dispense with oaths or affirmations, excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the good order, peace or safety of the state. No person shall be required to attend or support any ministry or place of worship, religious sect or denomination against his consent. Nor shall any preference be given by law to any religious denomination or mode of worship.
  • No law shall be passed impairing the freedom of speech; every person shall be free to speak, write or publish whatever he will on any subject, being responsible for all abuse of that liberty; and in all suits and prosecutions for libel the truth thereof may be given in evidence, and the jury, under the direction of the court, shall determine the law and the fact.
So, what is the basis of a court overruling a decision made by a popularly elected branch (the legislature and executive)? What gives a court the right to overturn a popular decision? The Mecklenburg Instructions of 1776 explain:

1st. Political power is of two kinds, one principal and superior, the other derived and inferior.

2d. The principal supreme power* is possessed by the people at large, the derived and inferior power by the servants which they employ.

3d. Whatever persons are delegated, chosen, employed and intrusted by the people are their servants and can possess only derived inferior power.

4th. Whatever is constituted and ordained by the principal supreme power can not be altered, suspended or abrogated by any other power, but the same power that ordained may alter, suspend and abrogate its own ordinances.

5th. The rules whereby the inferior power is to be exercised are to be constituted by the principal supreme power, and can be altered, suspended and abrogated by the same and no other.

6th. No authority can exist or be exercised but what shall appear to be ordained and created by the principal supreme power or by derived inferior power which the principal supreme power hath authorized to create such authority.

7th. That the derived inferior power can by no construction or pretence assume or exercise a power to subvert the principal supreme power

* Constitution-making


So what gives a court (unelected "servants of the people") the power to overrule an act of the legislature (a group of elected servants of the people)? Because the people, in their supreme constitution-making power, have decided to put into the Constitution their decision ("Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech.") so if Congress does pass an act abridging freedom of speech, the courts can point to the Constitution and say, "The people in their supreme constitution-making capacity, have decided against this." The Court cannot do it because the judges simply don't like the law, but because the people have already ruled on the matter and put their decision in the Constitution.

As for incorporation, nobody that I have read in 1867 said that the XIV Amendment would apply the BoR against the states. It is pretty obvious that Congress, when they drafted the XIV Amendment, were trying to secure the civil rights of freedmen (which they had just laid out in the Civil Rights Act of 1866, but which President Johnson had vetoed), so they went over the president's head and proposed a constitutional amendment. The "privileges and immunities" protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 were fairly straightforward: testify in court, serve on juries, file suits, own property, and generally be protected by the law without regard to skin color. If a state legislature passed an act saying black men could not file law suits simply because they are black, the XIV Amendment authorizes federal courts to overturn such a law.
Interestingly, Congress did not include voting in the privileges and immunities protected by the XIV or they would not have ratified the XV Amendment. They would have simply said: "We've already done that with the XIV Amendment." Thus, the "privileges and immunities" and "equal protection" clauses were intended to be pretty narrowly interpreted. For a more detailed exploration, I would refer you to Raoul Berger's Government by Judiciary.
For a federal court to overturn a law popularly adopted, they should have a really firm basis for doing so and I do not think the federal judiciary, of which the Supreme Court of the United States is a part, had such a firm basis.
 
I took the constitutional sidetrip only because the Supreme Court invoked incorporation doctrine in its opinion.
I'm sure the lawyers on the board may take issue. Unelected officeholders just overruled people elected by millions of Coloradans. My view is that unelected judges overruling popularly arrived at decisions should be sure they have a very firm foundation for that overruling. The Constitution (or in ambiguous or doubtful cases, the debates leading to the adoption of a Constitutional provision) should probably be that foundation, because the Founders ensured that there was a very high bar for that adoption (9 of 13 states for the Constitution, or 2/3 of both houses of Congress plus 3/4 of the states for the adoption of amendments). This is intended to ensure the provision is moderated, correct, and embodies supermajority support,

Maybe there is another source for the judiciary's warrant for overturning popularly adopted decisions. Maybe judges are simply superior people and not subject to the failings of mere mortals.

Okay, back to the discussion of the policy...
 

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