More than Half of America Gets More in Welfare than it Pays in Taxes

Bama 8Ball

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https://mises.org/wire/more-half-america-gets-more-welfare-it-pays-taxes

Interesting article. I have not had a chance to look at it in depth, but how is our current system sustainable? I don't see this as a party issue since this has been growing while both parties have been in power...

Here is an excerpt: (note it is from the Mises Institute out of Austria)


The political implications of this are considerable. As Ludwig von Mises once noted, once we get to the point that a majority of the voting population receives more in benefits than it pays in taxes, then voters will demand more and more wealth be transferred to them through government programs. It will then become politically necessary to extract larger and larger amounts of wealth from a minority in order to subsidize the majority.


Market economics will become less and less popular because the voters will have realized they can — in the words of James Bovard — "vote for a living" instead of work for a living.


These findings don't always apply at the level of the individual household, of course. In the middle quintile, especially, we'll find some households that are indeed worse off after taxes and transfers than before. This will especially be the case for households that do not yet receive old-age benefits such as Medicare and Social Security. Those households are currently being taxed to pay for current recipients of SS and Medicare. Later, however, those households will begin to receive those benefits. And, over a lifetime, they're likely to receive more in benefits than what they "paid in."2 This notion of "paying in," however, is pure fiction, and there is no "trust fund" for old-age benefits, and all benefits received at any given time are funded via taxation of current wage earners.


As far as politics goes, this latter fact is very important because voters receiving old-age benefits know that any significant cut in government spending and government taxation is likely to necessitate a decline in paid benefits. This is why neither major party ever seriously talks about cutting Medicare or Social Security, and why Donald Trump has even recently declared his own love for Medicare. It's simply a redistribution of income and wealth from current wage earners to current recipients, and for most elected officials, attempting to cut these benefits would be political suicide.
 

twofbyc

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Medicare and Social Security ain’t “welfare”; do you even bother to read these articles before you post them?
Universal healthcare solves the Medicare problem; raising the bogus “limit” on taxable SS income solves that problem, and if you eliminate the cap altogether the problem goes away forever.


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Bama 8Ball

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Medicare and Social Security ain’t “welfare”; do you even bother to read these articles before you post them?
Universal healthcare solves the Medicare problem; raising the bogus “limit” in taxable SS income solves that problem, and if you eliminate the cap altogether the problem goes away forever.


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Well heck genius, guess you got it figured out. If you would have bothered to read the article, you would have understood that welfare simply refers to programs where non working people are subsidized by working people. Social security is absolutely included in that category. Ask yourself this, if all working adults stopped paying social security tomorrow, how long would the baby boomers be financed? That's the point of the article. You can't really be that unable to see things right in front of you.
 

twofbyc

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And some people want to discuss an article whose very premise is bogus.
Some people need to use all this free time they’re wasting opening their minds and educating themselves.
Wouldn’t THAT be a hoot. [emoji57]


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gtowntide

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Please don't associate Social Security and Medicare as "welfare programs" because they're not. I worked for 43 years and paid into SS as required by law. It is my money, not welfare. Medicare doesn't cover everything and you must have an expensive supplemental policy to cover.

I am able not to depend on just SS for my retirement, but a lot of people are not. It's not our fault that my money wasn't managed well by the government.

The republicans have been trying to get their hands on SS for years. Paul Ryan wanted to use it and Mitch McConnell has targeted it after the mid term elections.Please don't take my money. Again, it's not welfare!
 

Bodhisattva

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Please don't associate Social Security and Medicare as "welfare programs" because they're not. I worked for 43 years and paid into SS as required by law. It is my money, not welfare. Medicare doesn't cover everything and you must have an expensive supplemental policy to cover.

I am able not to depend on just SS for my retirement, but a lot of people are not. It's not our fault that my money wasn't managed well by the government.

The republicans have been trying to get their hands on SS for years. Paul Ryan wanted to use it and Mitch McConnell has targeted it after the mid term elections.Please don't take my money. Again, it's not welfare!
Your contributions to SS were spent long ago. What retirees collect now is what current workers contribute.* It's much like a Ponzi scheme. The return you get on SS is 0% +/-. Think about that. You've contributed for 43 years and are making a return of nothing. Forty-three years of a market rate return (6-8%) would allow you to retire extremely comfortably.

*ETA: This is why there is a perpetual need for more immigration. Since SS is an inter generational wealth transfer, more young are needed to pay for the old. If people actually owned their own SS, and could get a decent return, there wouldn't be this need to prop up the welfare state (and we could also get rid of the associated bureaucracy).
 
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Bama 8Ball

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Please don't associate Social Security and Medicare as "welfare programs" because they're not. I worked for 43 years and paid into SS as required by law. ..It's not our fault that my money wasn't managed well
I 100% agree with you.
The point of the article, was that as a growing percentage of our population pays less taxes into the system, the funding for those programs has to come from somewhere. It's not like the money you paid into social security went into an account with your name on it so that you can access it upon retirement. The money you put into social security is already gone. And your right, it's not our fault the government created this mess.
 

UAH

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Your contributions to SS were spent long ago. What retirees collect now is what current workers contribute. It's much like a Ponzi scheme. The return you get on SS is 0% +/-. Think about that. You've contributed for 43 years and are making a return of nothing. Forty-three years of a market rate return (6-8%) would allow you to retire extremely comfortably.
All Social Security contributions including matching employer and employee contributions are invested in US Government Treasury Bonds. If you look at the chart on the Treasury Bond vs the Dow since inception of Social Security you will see that that the Bond plus compounded interest has slightly outperformed the market return including Dividends over the long term. Would you have preferred to have AAA rated bonds today versus Tesla and other technology companies? There is just a lot to be discussed about the market solution you propose.

There is also much wrong with the way SS has been administered, in particular the geometric growth of SS Disability. That doesn't mean that baby boomers and their employers have't contributed significantly to their retirement fund.

One reason we have 401K and IRA's today is to alleviate sole dependence on Social Security due to the way it has been utilized to fund disability coverage which of course is threatening the entire program.
 

Bodhisattva

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The Dow stock market is an index of 30 large companies. That is not well diversified and should not be used for one's retirement. Broader returns (e.g. S&P) have had returns of 7% +/- post WWII. I actually prefer a 529 investment which is aggressive in the early years and slowly transitions into more conservative investments over time to lock in larger gains.
 

seebell

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Thanks for the article Bama8Ball. Very interesting. Sounds like the government is subsidizing companies that pay low wages by giving transfer money to the working poor. I agree with UAH that the fix for Social Security and Medicare is a simple one that probably will never happen.
 

twofbyc

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SS is a terrible program. It is telling that one would advocate more of a bad idea instead of a far better market solution. So, yes, people really should educate themselves.
Again - your bias shows with every post concerning our economy.
Nothing “bad” about the SS program - you just don’t like it so it must be evil.
Educate yourself, Princess - the government has a large payment to make to the SS trust fund in 2020 (yes, I have actually read and do understand how it works) a very large payment. Republican Congress wants to keep that money to give to their friends.
Bad program - drivel like that coming from you on this topic is to be expected, I guess.


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Tidewater

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Thanks for the article Bama8Ball. Very interesting. Sounds like the government is subsidizing companies that pay low wages by giving transfer money to the working poor. I agree with UAH that the fix for Social Security and Medicare is a simple one that probably will never happen.
Oh, it'll happen eventually. The market will see to that. The solution won't be a very kind one, but it will get fixed.
 

Bodhisattva

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Again - your bias shows with every post concerning our economy.
Nothing “bad” about the SS program - you just don’t like it so it must be evil.
Educate yourself, Princess - the government has a large payment to make to the SS trust fund in 2020 (yes, I have actually read and do understand how it works) a very large payment. Republican Congress wants to keep that money to give to their friends.
Bad program - drivel like that coming from you on this topic is to be expected, I guess.


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LOL! Someone is triggered this morning. Interesting way you have with definitions. Do you realize that “bad” doesn’t have to mean “evil”? It could just mean a less desirable option. For instance, I consider relying on a government promise instead of having actual ownership rights to be bad. I consider getting a return that is many multiples less than a market return bad. I consider the existence of a bureaucracy whose employees soak up billions of taxpayer dollars yearly in salary and benefits to be bad. I consider being forced to participate in a bad program to be, well, bad.

Your selective opposition to government shenanigans shows a selective wisdom. I hope you can do better one day.
 

Bazza

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Back in August when I visited the local SS office, without getting into a lot of discussion.....I got the feeling via the employees there was a fair share of people "milking the system".

These aren't the people who paid in for most of their working life and are simply drawing their retirement benefit.

It's the ones drawing disability.

I don't know any other details but it was an eye-opener for me, for what it's worth.

=======

Thanks for posting the article and for the discussion.
 

Bodhisattva

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Back in August when I visited the local SS office, without getting into a lot of discussion.....I got the feeling via the employees there was a fair share of people "milking the system".

These aren't the people who paid in for most of their working life and are simply drawing their retirement benefit.

It's the ones drawing disability.

I don't know any other details but it was an eye-opener for me, for what it's worth.

=======

Thanks for posting the article and for the discussion.
A government program being gamed? I've never heard of such a thing. Get out of here with that crazy talk!
 

jthomas666

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Back in August when I visited the local SS office, without getting into a lot of discussion.....I got the feeling via the employees there was a fair share of people "milking the system".
These aren't the people who paid in for most of their working life and are simply drawing their retirement benefit.It's the ones drawing disability.
I don't know any other details but it was an eye-opener for me, for what it's worth.
One reason for that is that state disability services have, for many years now, worked assiduously to get people moved from state disability service (DDS) to social security.
 

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