Question: Questions for someone that believes in "predestination".

[Bamabuzzard]

Recently I've gotten real "caught up" so to speak over the Bible's teaching of "predestination". From my understanding (which sometimes is screwed up :biggrin predestination is basically that God before the creation of human kind "elected" or "chose" who will go to heaven and who will not. As I've studied this teaching and done as much research as my intellect will allow I've come across several questions but cannot get many people (that I come in contact with) to attempt to answer them for me.

These questions I have aren't in the manner of I already have my belief about the questions and I just want to argue. I really want to find out how my questions of certain scripture and teachings "fit in" with the teaching of predestination. If someone can attempt to answer some of them I'd appreciate it. Again, I'm NOT asking simply to argue or debate.

1. Taking the viewpoint that "predestination"/"election" is what the Bible is really teaching. How does the "Great Commission" fit in? Jesus commanded before he ascended into heaven to go make disciples of all men from all nations. If the decision has already been made what's the point?

2. How far does "predestination" reach in a person's life? Are we just character's in a huge story and we're just playing out our roles that the Author has written? Or does predestination only apply to the salvation process and everything else we have a choice? Such as whether I want to go to Krogers or Wal Mart, be an accountant or a lawyer?

3. What do I teach my kids about God? From a predestination teaching God doesn't "love" everybody. He made "vessels of wrath" and "vessels of mercy". I was raised that "Jesus loves you" and "wants the best for you" etc. However, from a predestination standpoint and according to scripture all throughout Bible that may not be true. If you are one of the "elect" God/Jesus loves you. But if you happen to be a "vessel of wrath" or one of the ones that isn't part of the "elect" then God doesn't love you. If our fate is decided before we're even born the what do I teach my kids?

 

[XXL TideFan]

Predestination can not be as long as man has free will to do as he sees fit...

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Predestination can not be as long as man has free will to do as he sees fit...

I understand that. You're coming from a standpoint of you believe in free will. I'm asking for someone that believes in predestination to attempt and explain obvious questions when taking that stance. I completely understand where people that believe in predestination get that belief. Especially when it specifically uses the term "predestined", "chosen before the foundations of the earth", "Before the twins were ever born and had an opportunity to do anything good or bad, Jacob I loved, Esau I hated..." etc.

There are just as many questions no matter which you believe. Just different ones.

 

[Tidewater]

1. Taking the viewpoint that "predestination"/"election" is what the Bible is really teaching. How does the "Great Commission" fit in? Jesus commanded before he ascended into heaven to go make disciples of all men from all nations. If the decision has already been made what's the point?

That is the heart of the matter between Arminianism versus Calvinism. I would say Arminians have the better argument, but there are a lot of place in scripture that support the Calvinist view. The tension between the commission and the idea of the elect could go a long way to explaining why churches of an Arminian orientation (Methodists being among the largest groups that embrace the idea, there are others) are more numerous than Calvinist ones (Presbyterians and some branches of Baptists). The doctrine of election is a bit of a motivation killer in the great commission.

2. How far does "predestination" reach in a person's life? Are we just character's in a huge story and we're just playing out our roles that the Author has written? Or does predestination only apply to the salvation process and everything else we have a choice? Such as whether I want to go to Krogers or Wal Mart, be an accountant or a lawyer?

To be fair to Calvin, one might say, "I know that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that does not cause the sun to come up." In the same vein, if God knows who will take him up on his offer to salvation, he has still made free will, and left the choice up to everyone who hears the message. He just knows in advance who will answer.

3. What do I teach my kids about God? From a predestination teaching God doesn't "love" everybody. He made "vessels of wrath" and "vessels of mercy". I was raised that "Jesus loves you" and "wants the best for you" etc. However, from a predestination standpoint and according to scripture all throughout Bible that may not be true. If you are one of the "elect" God/Jesus loves you. But if you happen to be a "vessel of wrath" or one of the ones that isn't part of the "elect" then God doesn't love you. If our fate is decided before we're even born the what do I teach my kids?

I would tell them salvation is free but it ain't cheap. And they are free not to accept the invitation.Arminianism vs. Calvinism
Plus, God loves us all, even those who reject him.

 

[It's On A Slab]

Predestination can not be as long as man has free will to do as he sees fit...

The way it was explained to me is that, yes, you have free will to reject God, but only God can redeem you, and you are either Chosen from the time you are born or you are destined to reject him.

According to the Calvinists, your fate is sealed already when you are born because, if we are free to choose God, as I've been told, then we're placing powers in Man that he doesn't have.

When I asked why should anyone bother trying to convert someone if their fate is sealed already, I was told that we shouldn't question this and that we're told to follow the Great Commission.

Of course, I'm a skeptic. On a side note, I've never gotten a good answer from Calvinists about why they revere a man (Calvin) who helped send the heretic Michael Servetus to the gallows. Calvin was a man who had blood on his hands.

 

[uafan4life]

Recently I've gotten real "caught up" so to speak over the Bible's teaching of "predestination". From my understanding (which sometimes is screwed up :biggrin predestination is basically that God before the creation of human kind "elected" or "chose" who will go to heaven and who will not. As I've studied this teaching and done as much research as my intellect will allow I've come across several questions but cannot get many people (that I come in contact with) to attempt to answer them for me.

This is often a touchy and difficult subject, and most people don't care enough to or think they can spend the time in study to form a solid, defendable opinion on the subject, which is why you aren't finding a lot of answers. As for your personal study, I have some good resources on this at home, I'll look them up when I get a chance.

These questions I have aren't in the manner of I already have my belief about the questions and I just want to argue. I really want to find out how my questions of certain scripture and teachings "fit in" with the teaching of predestination. If someone can attempt to answer some of them I'd appreciate it. Again, I'm NOT asking simply to argue or debate.

1. Taking the viewpoint that "predestination"/"election" is what the Bible is really teaching. How does the "Great Commission" fit in? Jesus commanded before he ascended into heaven to go make disciples of all men from all nations. If the decision has already been made what's the point?

Good question. It really depends on your view of predestination. There are several interpretations on the subject. If you are a Calvinist, and follow his TULIP theory, then you subscribe to a strict theory of predestination where you basically have no choice in the matter. You are either destined to be saved or lost and there's nothing you can do about it. If this is the case then, as you ask, why is the Great Commission necessary? You can't save someone who is predestined to be lost by preaching to them, and if someone is predestined to be saved, they can't be lost by you not preaching to them. I've yet to get a good answer on this view, especially in regards to free will. You'll hear a lot of things like you do those things (good works, reaching out, etc.) out of gratitude, because that's what saved people do, to make the world a better place, etc. It all sounds like a lot of double-talk to me.

2. How far does "predestination" reach in a person's life? Are we just character's in a huge story and we're just playing out our roles that the Author has written? Or does predestination only apply to the salvation process and everything else we have a choice? Such as whether I want to go to Krogers or Wal Mart, be an accountant or a lawyer?

Almost everyone who believes in predestination attributes it to salvation only. However, how far the providence of God ventures into your daily life is a varied belief. Perhaps it has nothing to do with your vocation, or perhaps you become an accountant to come into contact with the person who will introduce you to Christ.

Predestination only applying to the salvation process is termed Predestination of the Method, Predestination of the Way, or Predestination of the Elect and is typically a minority view. It states that the method is all that was predetermined and does not apply to individuals, but those who will obey and be saved. While this theory fully agrees with the gift of free will, there are many scriptures that reference or allude to predestination that seem to be much more specific.

3. What do I teach my kids about God? From a predestination teaching God doesn't "love" everybody. He made "vessels of wrath" and "vessels of mercy". I was raised that "Jesus loves you" and "wants the best for you" etc. However, from a predestination standpoint and according to scripture all throughout Bible that may not be true. If you are one of the "elect" God/Jesus loves you. But if you happen to be a "vessel of wrath" or one of the ones that isn't part of the "elect" then God doesn't love you. If our fate is decided before we're even born the what do I teach my kids?

My personal belief is that Predestination applies to us as individuals, but is based on the foreknowledge of God. Predestination is often referenced, both in the Old and New Testaments, along with foreknowledge. I believe Romans 8:29 is one example.

The typical argument against this type of predestination from both the Calvinist and the Methodology angles is a little puzzling to me, since it is the same. The argument is that if God foreknew our salvation then we have no choice in the matter, that is, no free will. How this conflicts with the Calvinist viewpoint beyond semantics I can't figure out.

From the Methodology camp this argument at first makes sense. If God knew before the world was created whether we would "choose" to be saved or be lost, is it really a choice? The problem with this argument is that it does not take into account the nature of the existence of God. God exists outside of our universe, outside of our limits of space and time. We are bound by the physical laws of this universe, and tend to think in those terms. God created the universe, therefore he exists outside of it, and outside of its constraints.

The best analogy I can come up with is this. You are a jeweler, and have been commissioned with creating the Super Bowl rings and trophy for the champions this year, engraving their names on the rings. A month before the Super Bowl, you receive a DVD. You watch the DVD, and it is a collection of news reports and highlights that appear to be from today through the Super Bowl. You don't think it's real at first, but after two weeks, every single thing in the video has occurred exactly as it did on the video. You see an opportunity here. You can have the rings and trophy engraved and ready for the winner right when the Super Bowl is over. You create and engrave the rings and the trophy and as the Super Bowl ends, exactly as it did on the tape, you present them to the winning team. And you didn't have to create two sets of rings, since you already knew what would happen. Does this mean that the other team didn't have the same chance of winning as the team that won? Does it mean their actions had no consequence? Those questions are debatable. However, did you do anything to control their actions? No. Just because you knew what was going to happen doesn't mean that you did anything to make it happen.

Since God exists outside our universe and its constraints, he can see our existence from beginning to end. Before, or at depending upon your view of foreknowledge, the creation of the universe, God could see its existence from beginning to end. He could see each of our lives from beginning to end, as if it had already happened. When God predestined us to be saved or lost, and wrote our names in the Book of Life, it was because in a way, for him, it had already happened.

It's very hard for us to understand and, because of that, many people choose to dismiss the idea. However, the existence of God in any form is difficult if not impossible for us as humans to understand. Sit and concentrate on a being, God, having no beginning and no end. It's easier for us to comprehend no end than no beginning. It's extremely difficult to understand, or wrap our heads around, God having no beginning and no end. And that truth is rather cut and dried. If we can't understand that rather basic concept of his existence, how can we fully understand the foreknowledge of God?

Anyway, that's my opinion.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

The way it was explained to me is that, yes, you have free will to reject God, but only God can redeem you, and you are either Chosen from the time you are born or you are destined to reject him.

According to the Calvinists, your fate is sealed already when you are born because, if we are free to choose God, as I've been told, then we're placing powers in Man that he doesn't have.

When I asked why should anyone bother trying to convert someone if their fate is sealed already, I was told that we shouldn't question this and that we're told to follow the Great Commission.

Of course, I'm a skeptic.

The very few Calvinists that have talked with me about this say the same thing. They go in great detail with other scripture as to why "election" is the correct interpretation. Yet just tell me to "don't question" the last words of Jesus before he ascended into heaven. Who knows? :conf2:

 

[exiledNms]

The best answer I ever got comes from a very thoughtful friend who was raised in an Arminian-ish church but switched to a Reformed-ish church as an adult. He has also studied the issue at some length in graduate theology programs (2 of 'em).

Here's his answer: "Either way you land on this issue presents problems. I've decided that I'm more comfortable with the problems on the Reformed side than on the Arminian side."

I still think this is an excellent, honest, humble answer.

And then there's this as well, from a pastor friend of mine. "I always prefer to err on the side of magnifying the greatness of God's wisdom over erring on the side of elevating man's."

I fully realize that neither of these answers the questions raised exactly. Just wanted to remind all interested parties that this is a toughie, and to hold to your (our) beliefs loosely & with humility.

One more (non)answer: C.H. Spurgeon once said that on the front of the gates of heaven is inscribed "whosoever will may come" but that after passing through the gates one looks back toward the gate s/he'll see "chosen from the foundation of the world."

exiled

 

[Tidewater]

The best answer I ever got comes from a very thoughtful friend who was raised in an Arminian-ish church but switched to a Reformed-ish church as an adult. He has also studied the issue at some length in graduate theology programs (2 of 'em).

Here's his answer: "Either way you land on this issue presents problems. I've decided that I'm more comfortable with the problems on the Reformed side than on the Arminian side."

I still think this is an excellent, honest, humble answer.

And then there's this as well, from a pastor friend of mine. "I always prefer to err on the side of magnifying the greatness of God's wisdom over erring on the side of elevating man's."

I fully realize that neither of these answers the questions raised exactly. Just wanted to remind all interested parties that this is a toughie, and to hold to your (our) beliefs loosely & with humility.

One more (non)answer: C.H. Spurgeon once said that on the front of the gates of heaven is inscribed "whosoever will may come" but that after passing through the gates one looks back toward the gate s/he'll see "chosen from the foundation of the world."

exiled

Exiled, good answer.
When I come to Hattiesburg (to do research) where is the place to have lunch?

 

[exiledNms]

When I come to Hattiesburg (to do research) where is the place to have lunch?

Crescent City Grill not far from USM on Hardy Street (one of the "main drags" here) Best restaurant in the Pine Belt region. The owner/creator's one of those guys with the Midas touch in terms of food & restaurants & such. As the name suggests, the place has a New Orleans feel/flavor in decor, in background music, and in food. Added plus: if you're here when it's sunny but not too hot, he has a very nice courtyard that's one of our fave places to sit & eat & chat & ponder & such.

Ethnically, there are two pretty good Thai places, which is a tad odd for a smallish city like this with not so many actual Thai folks. One's near the hospital in 49, & the other is over toward downtown. Can't recall the name of either one just now however...

And then downtown there are a couple of good eateries. One's a bagel shop type place rt. near the train station downtown. Another is the pizza joint near that.

Basically, for a town of our size, we have quite a surprising no. of decent restaurants. Apparently nobody here cooks @ home much any more...

But for just one, I'd def. go w/ Crescent City Grill. Easy to find & *great* food imo.

(hijack ends: please resume debating things theological...)

 

[Crimson Pig]

I'd actually never gone to church much in my life, but I went to one that taught this way and I felt as though it made more sense to me than anything.

Though I wasn't told this, I did a lot of thinking about the nature of God.

People view God as omiscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. He's a being that knows all, sees all, and is everywhere. What I never understood is how an argument for free will could stand.

By definition, God knows what choice you're going to make before you make it. Is it not then technically already made? Where does the idea of free will come from? God HAS to know, by definition of what He is.

 

[bayoutider]

Predestination can not be as long as man has free will to do as he sees fit...

In the book of Exodus God said that he will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21, 7:4-5). The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is then described in several different ways:
Pharaoh's heart became hard (Ex 7:13, 23)
Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:15, 32)
God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 9:7, 10:20)

When the Bible says Pharaoh hardens his heart, it also says that this happened "just as the Lord had said" (Ex 8:15). In particular Exodus 9:34-10:2:

When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

In other words, Pharaoh's hardening his heart is considered to be the same as God hardening Pharaoh's heart. I take this to mean that Pharaoh did the actual hardening, as we see it, he decided on his own to not listen to God and let the Israelite go. But God knew in advance what Pharaoh would do in any given situation, and deliberately placed Pharaoh in this situation. God brought about this situation Moses would encounter a pharaoh whose heart was hardened against God, though Pharaoh hardened his heart of his own free will.

Was Pharaoh denied free will or was it predestination? Another question is was Pharaoh denied the kingdom of heaven for becoming a tool of God?

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I'd actually never gone to church much in my life, but I went to one that taught this way and I felt as though it made more sense to me than anything.

Though I wasn't told this, I did a lot of thinking about the nature of God.

People view God as omiscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. He's a being that knows all, sees all, and is everywhere. What I never understood is how an argument for free will could stand.

By definition, God knows what choice you're going to make before you make it. Is it not then technically already made? Where does the idea of free will come from? God HAS to know, by definition of what He is.

Knowing before hand is not the same as making the decision for you. That is the argument. Just because God "knows" the decision you're going to make doesn't mean "free will" could not exist. He just knows what decision YOU are going make. But HE didn't make it for you.

The argument is does God take "free will" out of our hands? Has HE chosen who will go to heaven and who will not. Has he created some that are destined for hell and some that are destined for heaven and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it?

I can know what someone is going to do before they do it but it doesn't mean they didn't have free will. I can set a bowl of ice cream and a bowl of broccoli in front of my three year old for her to pick. Before she picks I KNOW which one she's gonna pick, the ice cream. However, I didn't make the choice for her. Knowing something before hand doesn't necessarily mean free will can't exist.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

In the book of Exodus God said that he will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21, 7:4-5). The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is then described in several different ways:
Pharaoh's heart became hard (Ex 7:13, 23)
Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:15, 32)
God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 9:7, 10:20)

When the Bible says Pharaoh hardens his heart, it also says that this happened "just as the Lord had said" (Ex 8:15). In particular Exodus 9:34-10:2:

When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

In other words, Pharaoh's hardening his heart is considered to be the same as God hardening Pharaoh's heart. I take this to mean that Pharaoh did the actual hardening, as we see it, he decided on his own to not listen to God and let the Israelite go. But God knew in advance what Pharaoh would do in any given situation, and deliberately placed Pharaoh in this situation. God brought about this situation Moses would encounter a pharaoh whose heart was hardened against God, though Pharaoh hardened his heart of his own free will.

Was Pharaoh denied free will or was it predestination? Another question is was Pharaoh denied the kingdom of heaven for becoming a tool of God?

Wonderful post Bayou. I've ran this particular scripture through my mind a million times. Your thoughts and questions parallel mine.

 

[RhodeIslandRed]

I've heard James Boice explain it once. Even though God may have elected certain ones for salvation, the mechanism by which they came to learn about God may have been through another individual, thus the importance of missionary work.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I've heard James Boice explain it once. Even though God may have elected certain ones for salvation, the mechanism by which they came to learn about God may have been through another individual, thus the importance of missionary work.

But here's the hiccup in that teaching. The bible specifically teaches that NONE of those "given" to Jesus by the Father will be lost, NONE. So no matter what man "chooses" to do or not do the elect will be saved, missionaries or not. That is why you do not see a lot of Calvinist churches doing as much missionary work as the Baptist and other "free will" believing denominations. As one Calvinist pastor said in a sermon I listened to. "Our fate has already been determined and there's NOTHING, I mean NOTHING you can do about it. God's will SHALL be done and WILL be done."

But he refused to get into the reasoning of why Jesus' last words before ascending into heaven was to go make disciples of all men from all nations etc. I kept telling him "Look, I'm not saying what you believe is 'wrong'. I just want to know how Jesus' command fits into the 'election' doctrine. That's all." Could never get a straight answer.

 

[RhodeIslandRed]

I think what Boice was getting at was that the church is here to spread and teach the Word rather than save. God has given the Elect the ability to hear and understand.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I think what Boice was getting at was that the church is here to spread and teach the Word rather than save. God has given the Elect the ability to hear and understand.

I think you're right. The pastor I was talking to was saying that the "non elect" do not have the ability to understand. The "Gospel of Jesus Christ" , the word of God etc. doesn't make sense to them. It is basically considered "non sense". However, to the elect the teaching of "faith", "forgiveness of sins" and all the things Christ taught makes perfect sense. So if you believe that Jesus is who He said He was then odds are you have the ability to understand hence being one of the "elect".

 

[RhodeIslandRed]

I think I may have also missed the spirit of your question. If I may, the question might be, "Does salvation require God's election plus human contact or the printed word?" I would suppose that human contact is not required as Paul's conversion and salvation did not require humans. Abraham and Moses did not. Enoch also did not. So I suppose we follow the Great Commission as an act of love and obedience, which may bring us back to James' piece -- faith without works...

 

[RamJamHam]

Wouldn't John 3:16 be at least somewhat superfluous if there were already an "elect" or "chosen" people that were able to receive the gospel? Jesus said that WHOSOEVER believed on him should not perish but have everlasting life through him. The fact that God already knows who will respond to his stirring of their heart and believe in Jesus as his or her Savior does not render each person's free will moot.

I am not nearly as formally educated in theological matters as some of you are, but it occurs to me that, while God is always stirring us (through his Holy Spirit) to accept Jesus or, after our acceptance of Jesus, to take up our cross and follow Him, He always tells us what we need to do and then waits on us to make the first move, and He knows beforehand what our response will be. For example, Jesus called the disciples to Himself and they then made the decision to follow; he did not command them to Himself.

God wants us to love and obey Him out of our own free will and because of who He is.

Somewhat similarly, our pastor recently commented that the word "confess" is used in the Bible on several occasions in the New Testament to mean, roughly, "agrees with." That is, if God is omniscient, as I believe, then I am not telling Him anything He doesn't already know when I confess my sins; I am agreeing with Him that they are sins and that I need forgiveness. However, to parallel the predestination argument, I am required to confess and ask for forgiveness. Why would Jesus not just rely on the fact that God already knows I sinned, and that Jesus already redeemed that sin on the cross, and not require me to actually approach God and ask forgiveness? It is because he wants us to willfully submit to Him and His will.