Spread O vs. 3-4/3-3-5 Defenses?

bamatex82

All-SEC
Oct 5, 2001
1,835
280
202
Greenville, TX
In 2005 season we featured a 3-3-5 defense. In that year we played 2 spread offenses - Florida during the regular season and Texas Tech in the Cotton Bowl.
Results: Florida 3 Alabama 31
Tex Tech 10 Alabama 13
A total of 13 points scored to the spread offense.

Fast forward to this year. We featured a 3-5 defense. We played 2 spread offenses - Florida and Utah. We allowed each to score 31 points. We gave up 62 points to the spread offense.

In this seasons games, especially against Utah, it looked like we went to 4-3 alignment as the game went on. Personnel differences aside, is the 3-3-5 that much better against the spread? If so, why don't more teams use it, especially in the Big 12?
 
Last edited:

Bama4Ever831

All-American
Sep 13, 2005
2,208
0
45
36
Tuscaloosa, AL
I don't know too much about Xs and Os but our victory over Florida is different in 2005 because in 2005 they didn't have the personnel in place to effectively run a spread. But I am very interested to see how our much smarter members on Xs and Os see this.
 

Bamafan78

1st Team
Nov 20, 2006
936
0
0
47
Chattanooga, TN.
I like speed on speed, and would try to match defensive backs against receivers if your defensive backs are any good. The most important thing against the spread is you can't wiff on tackles like we did against Utah.
 

JessN

Administrator & Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
6,408
5,087
432
There are different kinds of 3-3-5s; having said that, the kind Joe Kines likes to use is my favorite for attacking spread teams.

Unfortunately, defenses built to do one thing are typically vulnerable against something else. Kines' 3-3-5 wasn't built well to handle a team that ran the ball with authority.

Kines' 3-3-5 was built on an inside-out philosophy with a DL technique called "opposite shoulder." The short story here is that it funneled everything to the sidelines. Most defenses funnel inside, where there are more bodies and where the LBs can clean up. Kines' defense was safety-friendly.

It works when you have the right people running it. When you're talent-deficient, however, it's a big-time problem -- especially if you don't have speed on the corners. If you funnel outside but don't have the speed to clean up, you're toast.

The biggest issue with Joe Kines is that he was a bad recruiter. And I mean just plain bad. The 2005 defense was one of my favorites at UA, but it also had the benefit of four future NFL starters in the secondary. By 2006, when three of those four were gone and probation was starting to have an effect, the second team secondary was comprised of Eric Gray, Sam Burnthall, Bryan Kilpatrick (walk-on), and a pair of true freshmen named Marquis Johnson and Justin Woodall, neither of whom played a bunch, along with a young Rashad Johnson.

Part of that talent problem was attributable to probation, but part was also misevaluations come home to roost. Lionel Mitchell didn't have the mindset for SEC football. Chris Rogers, for whatever reason, has never made an impact. Andy Davis quit the team and went home. The best DB signee during that era is going to end up being Arenas, a kick returner. The only other candidates are Woodall and Johnson. The best that ever played for Kines (of the ones that the Shula staff signed) is probably JUCO signee Jeffrey Dukes -- if you don't count Cory Reamer, who is now a LB. Four starters out of four recruiting classes, quite frankly, stinks.

The other thing with the 3-3-5 is you can't turn it on and turn it off. The OLBs are too different. OLBs under Kines for 2006 were Terrence Jones, Juwan Simpson and Demarcus Waldrop. Waldrop was smaller than Rashad Johnson. Jones would have no role for Saban other than on special teams. OLBs under Saban are Fanney (around 250-260 pounds) and Cory Reamer (225), and Reamer is a situational player. He's the guy they take out to get the fifth DB on the field in the nickel, and I expect Jerrell Harris to play more in 2009.

The biggest issue with Kines' 3-3-5 is that it's difficult to recruit DL to it, no matter who is doing the recruiting. The DL are placeholders. Dominic Lee played 12 or 13 games one year and ended up with something like four tackles, maybe less. That's a big reason Alabama had to rely on guys like Rudy Griffin in those years, because they weren't getting great DL talent. And when they did (Lee), Buddy Wyatt, who did one of the worst assistant coaching/recruiting jobs in the recent UA history, couldn't develop them.

Now, if you take Alabama's current defense, a 3-4 over/under that shifts to a 4-2-5 in nickel and either 4-1-6 or 3-2-6 in dime, the personnel is built differently and the DL technique is different. The advantage is that Saban's defense will almost always trigger more big plays, but the disadvantage is that it will give up big plays. Kines' defense was a true bend-not-break defense that kept everything in front of it.

If the entirety of college football starts to move in the direction of the spread, defenses will be forced to change, even Saban's. Right now, Saban is trying to fight the battle with talent, and to coach something he has personal knowledge about (the 3-4 over/under) and is more comfortable working with.
 
Last edited:

RAM

All-SEC
Aug 2, 2006
1,212
0
0
I said it before, with the spread o, that Saban's D is built for stopping the run. I now am slightly worried because it looks like the power teams for the most part on O are going this way, FL Utah. I think that Saban is still a pass rushing end, and two true corners away with this past team from his D. Jess did a great break down of the Kines D, still it is up to the personal that you have, he did not have it, and Saban does not for the most part for his style. I think he needs four good fast coners, at least one true Jack, and one blitzing styled Safety
I am not counting out K.Jackson and Areans, they are good enough it is the nickle and dime backs that we have no depth for, in a true NC team. Also the pass rush is in major need.

I still would like to see Saban develop a D with his in mind but depth to switch over to face the spread teams. Lswho and Barn U are power teams (Barn took a look at the spread), Arky and Ole Sis are pass happy West Coast style, and I look for Miss St. to run a true spread. We need to a have a D ready to stop the power run and the spread, that is what will make up the best Ds of the near future.

Also, I read a good article on South FL. in one of the pre-season mags that talks about they are built just to stop the spread, very good read.
 
Last edited:

G-VilleTider

Suspended
Aug 17, 2006
2,062
52
72
Now, if you take Alabama's current defense, a 3-4 over/under that shifts to a 4-2-5 in nickel and either 4-1-6 or 3-3-6 in dime, the personnel is built differently and the DL technique is different. QUOTE]

4-1-6 = 11 defenders or 3-3-6 = 12 defenders, ill take the 3-3-6 anyday!

Jess, don't you just LOVE smartbutt editors :biggrin:
 

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
68,487
83,895
462
crimsonaudio.net
As good as our defense was this year (and I believe will be even better in 2009), we didn't have the secondary we did in '05. That's the key to stopping the spread - the ability to play tight man coverage thus disrupting the timing routes. If we had the same secondary in '08 as we did in '05 we likely would have finished with an MNC, imo...
 

G-VilleTider

Suspended
Aug 17, 2006
2,062
52
72
IMO, with a healthy Zeke, we play for the MNC this year, probably win it...
Sorry Earle, but i must respectfully disagree. I know that you are one of the more learned and informed of the posters, but even with the increased pass rush, which i believe you are assuming, it still wouldn't help enough, imho, to overcome the deficiencies of a certian db who, although i love for his heart, cannot seem to "get his hips right" and cover properly. Against Utah, perhaps, but against Superman, I think we still lose this year.
 

crimson_blood

All-American
Jul 22, 2006
2,671
0
0
Helena, AL
As good as our defense was this year (and I believe will be even better in 2009), we didn't have the secondary we did in '05. That's the key to stopping the spread - the ability to play tight man coverage thus disrupting the timing routes. If we had the same secondary in '08 as we did in '05 we likely would have finished with an MNC, imo...
Bingo.

The one main difference between Fla in 2005 and 2008 is Tim Tebow...period.
 

BamaSteve999

1st Team
Oct 22, 2004
403
0
0
As a couple of posters have correctly stated, the keys to stopping (or at least slowing) the spread are (1) disrupt their timing by not allowing the receivers to get off the line of scrimmage unimpeded and (2) make good open field tackles.

As much as we like to talk about pressure on the QB, unless you disrupt routes in the spread you are not going to get much pressure on the QB because the ball will come out too fast on timing. This requires DBs who are not afraid to snug up at the LOS, and you can't consistently allow receivers to cut across your face to the middle and be wide open (see Sugar Bowl) unless you have coverage coming from the backside and are trying to bait that throw.

Also, since the "passing" spread, for all the talk about it, is no more than an attempt to get the ball to great skill players in space, you have to make sure tackles. Again, see the Sugar Bowl for what happens when you give up a lot of YAC.

The "running" spread, like FL uses, is a little different because it is generally based on the old single wing and is designed to cause fits by requiring the defense to account for the QB as a true running threat. When you have a good runing QB, this works really well. See, Tebow. A lot of what FL is currently using has roots in the old wishbone as well, as in what I call their "reverse option" with that inside pitch to the TE that killed us and OK. With Tebow coming down the line and Harvin trailing for a possible pitch, who is worried about the TE coming inside for what would have been the fullback dive option in the wishbone. For all of his genius, and he is obviously a very good football coach, Meyer has figured out that making a defense play assignment football is the best way to rob them of their aggression and get them thinking instead of reacting, which as we all know is deadly in any sport.
 

bamatex82

All-SEC
Oct 5, 2001
1,835
280
202
Greenville, TX
The biggest issue with Kines' 3-3-5 is that it's difficult to recruit DL to it, no matter who is doing the recruiting. The DL are placeholders. Dominic Lee played 12 or 13 games one year and ended up with something like four tackles, maybe less. That's a big reason Alabama had to rely on guys like Rudy Griffin in those years, because they weren't getting great DL talent. And when they did (Lee), Buddy Wyatt, who did one of the worst assistant coaching/recruiting jobs in the recent UA history, couldn't develop them.
I assume that by "placeholders" that you mean they are to hold their ground occupying an OL, not pressuring the QB?

If the entirety of college football starts to move in the direction of the spread, defenses will be forced to change, even Saban's. Right now, Saban is trying to fight the battle with talent, and to coach something he has personal knowledge about (the 3-4 over/under) and is more comfortable working with.
That's what puzzles me about the Big 12. The best teams feature the spread, yet they haven't seemed to change their schemes. OU seems to do the best against the spread, yet their D seems lackluster at times. This year they looked great against Texas Tech, and at times looked good against Florida. But they also got lit up by Ok State. Go figure...
 

JessN

Administrator & Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
6,408
5,087
432
I assume that by "placeholders" that you mean they are to hold their ground occupying an OL, not pressuring the QB?
Basically, yes. Kines' DL almost acted like a mirror OL. The technique appeared to be to tie up the OL and keep them from getting to the second level (LBs). The MLB was taught to crash the gap not covered by a tackle and little else. That's one reason Matt Collins had a role in that defense; he only had about a five-yard-cubed box to have to work in. The OLBs and safety would then run to the ball. If a DT made a tackle in Kines' scheme, it was typically on an and-short situation where the RB picked the wrong gap, or some other kind of weird accident.

That's what puzzles me about the Big 12. The best teams feature the spread, yet they haven't seemed to change their schemes. OU seems to do the best against the spread, yet their D seems lackluster at times. This year they looked great against Texas Tech, and at times looked good against Florida. But they also got lit up by Ok State. Go figure...
OU claims to operate from a 4-3 base. The deal with the spread is that it puts you in nickel from the start and you never really get out of it. The only exception? Alabama stayed in base against Florida for much of the game because UA realized (correctly) that without Harvin in the game, the offense was going to compress to sort of a single- or double-wing, with Tebow getting most of the carries. Had Harvin been available, Reamer would have probably had 1/4 the snaps that he eventually got.

Anyway, OU still comes from a 4-3 look. If you're going to be a spread-defensing team above all else, you either need to base out of the 3-3-5, 4-2-5 (both are different from a standard nickel set) or one of two variants of the 3-1-3. One of those, the "1" is a rover safety. In the other, it's basically a Jack (and there's a subset now, a 3-1-2-5, which is a sort of a 3-3-5 with a Jack). The Big 12 may have to go that way soon, although QB play in that conference is about to revert to the mean.

The underlining factor in ALL of these "gimmick defenses," as some like to call them, is that YOU HAVE TO RECRUIT SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM. You can't just take a DL off the field, insert a nickel safety and say you run a 3-3-5. You have to get small at LB and look for different things in your safeties.

Saban apparently isn't buying that. It appears Alabama's immediate strategy is going to be to recruit to a 3-4 over/under and then load up on enough safeties that when UA faces a spread team, Saban will go with a four-man line and then play either nickel or dime behind that. It would have worked against Utah had (a) the nickel and dime backs done a better job in coverage, and (b) if the ILBs had been more effective. Factor B is a combination of a soft spot in UA's scheme and an ILB group that never, from the spring scrimmage forward, showed itself to be consistently capable of covering. Alabama also needs a better pass rush from both ends so it doesn't have to commit the linebacker(s) to blitzing to get ample pressure, and instead allow them to play robber coverages over the middle.

We'll see how it works, but given that the SEC will have just three spread teams next year (UF, MSU and maybe Auburn), it wouldn't help UA to reverse course just for those teams -- especially since Alabama has a strong talent edge over MSU and is about to open up a similar edge over AU.
 

TRUTIDE

All-SEC
Oct 14, 1999
1,502
0
0
Spanish Fort, AL
In 2005 season we featured a 3-3-5 defense. In that year we played 2 spread offenses - Florida during the regular season and Texas Tech in the Cotton Bowl.
Results: Florida 3 Alabama 31
Tex Tech 10 Alabama 13
A total of 13 points scored to the spread offense.

Fast forward to this year. We featured a 3-5 defense. We played 2 spread offenses - Florida and Utah. We allowed each to score 31 points. We gave up 62 points to the spread offense.

In this seasons games, especially against Utah, it looked like we went to 4-3 alignment as the game went on. Personnel differences aside, is the 3-3-5 that much better against the spread? If so, why don't more teams use it, especially in the Big 12?
"Personel differences aside", I do not think the spread is what beat us in either of those two games this year. I think there were a combination of things that beat us in the Sugar bowl. Among them, our DC was short timing it, the loss of Andre Smith turned out to be devastating to our pass protection and we just did not appear to be prepared at the beginning of the game. Our defense played great against Utah in the final three qtrs. It was the 3 we spotted them in the 1st qtr that hurt. I have not seen our defense play as poorly as they did in that 1st qtr.

Florida was all Tebow. He ran down the field and then threw two perfect passes on inside slants on 3rd down that only his receiver could catch. There is not another Tebow in the nation. He is the best cpllege QB I have ever watched play and way too consistent. He throws the ball as well as he runs it. That's scary. Hopefully we will figure him out by next year.

Surely our defense played well this year. We made a pretty good run at it and I was really impressed with that nickel early on. The blitz packages off of it were exceptional against Clemson and GA. We are very talented up the middle. We just seemed to struggle more at the ends and the corners especially in those last two games. I would have expected our dbs to be more confident this late in the year as well. I personally think that jumping some of those routes when the blitz was on would have rattled the QBs more. We got killed on the quick slants and dumps. What we had in 96 and really in 92 was experience on the defensive side of the ball. What we have now is a lot of young talent that will just get better with experience. As well as we did this year, I think this 3 5 will prove to be more fluid when we get more experience running it.
 

M2J

All-American
Jan 28, 2007
2,330
110
82
Better pass rush and better dbs and we'll be fine. Luckily we look to be bringing in the personnel to shore up those problems.
 

TRUTIDE

All-SEC
Oct 14, 1999
1,502
0
0
Spanish Fort, AL
Personally, I'm not sold on the 3-3-5 as being so wonderful against the spread. Coach Joe Kines does not seem to be currently enjoying much success at TAMU against those Big-12 spread offenses.
Well, as someone else said, it depends on the personel. You have to have the right players in the mix for the 3-3-5 to work and then what do you do against the pure running teams? I think that speed is the best defense of the spread. If the ends can contain and the linebackers and safeties can pursue to the ball, you can stop it. A lot of highschool offenses run the spread and do well with it against weaker opponents but when they come up against a faster defense in the playoffs, it is usually derailed. I think the same applies here. Florida did not have a typical performance against us with it and if they would have had to face their own defense this year, I think their D would have won. Utah came out of the gates with the spread on us but we adjusted and pretty much shut it down in the final three qtrs. We have had many great defenses in the SEC over the years and speed has always been linked to those defenses.
 

bamar

1st Team
Mar 31, 2003
900
1
0
tullahoma, tn usa
i dont think our peformance against the spread this year has anything to do with the future of our defense. it is recruiting. coach has gone after def ends that can speed rush, and still be physical. linebackers capable of reading and covering tight ends, and receivers across the middle just behind the line. and corners that can cover, watch the ball, and tackle with authority. we lacked this against the good spread teams. of course, a good pass protecting offensive line would be nice.
 

bamaslaw

All-SEC
Jan 16, 2005
1,899
0
0
Atlanta, GA
Personally, I'm not sold on the 3-3-5 as being so wonderful against the spread. Coach Joe Kines does not seem to be currently enjoying much success at TAMU against those Big-12 spread offenses.
Remember the "Fire Joe Kines" talk the first season? It's a technique that typically struggles the first season as defenders are usually asked to do many different things than what most other DCs require.
 

New Posts

Amazon Deals for TideFans!

YouTheFan Alabama BBQ Set

Purchases may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.

Latest threads