Link: Video Shows Military Killing Civilians

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Crimson Pig

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

Supposedly, at least.

Curious to see what type of discussion ensues, if this is even allowed to stay up.

Also covered here
Al Jazeera English - AJE

Discussed in depth here
WIKILEAKS VIDEO OUT. "classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff." US Intelligence covered-up the murders and tried to stop this vide

Nothing on CNN as of yet.

Obviously nothing on Fox News yet.

*Edit: BBC Picking up on it*
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8603938.stm

*Edit: Tiger Woods > Actual News*
http://i.imgur.com/RFsK0.jpg
 
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NYBamaFan

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I don't see the big deal. Troops came under fire. These guys were carrying weapons. There were a couple of reporters there. They got killed. A risk that comes with covering a war.

The kids being shot is tragic, but what the heck were the parents thinking driving them into that fire-fight? They were not visible because they were in the van.

Not sure how anyone other than a wingnut can make hay with this. :conf3:
 

Mamacalled

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I don't see the big deal. Troops came under fire. These guys were carrying weapons. There were a couple of reporters there. They got killed. A risk that comes with covering a war.

The kids being shot is tragic, but what the heck were the parents thinking driving them into that fire-fight? They were not visible because they were in the van.

Not sure how anyone other than a wingnut can make hay with this. :conf3:
It will be because we have politicians.
 

Crimson Pig

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I thought the interesting part was the guy laughing about himself running over one of the bodies.

That and the gunner begging for another excuse to shoot.

If it wasn't so bad, why did the military try to cover it up?
 

swoop10

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I thought the interesting part was the guy laughing about himself running over one of the bodies.

That and the gunner begging for another excuse to shoot.

If it wasn't so bad, why did the military try to cover it up?
Seems like you are quick to convict. You posted the video people watched it and don't agree with you. Have you ever been in that situation or even in the military? I was in the military but not in a wartime situation and I have don't feel like I can judge these guys for anything that happened. The guys they shot had weapons and the van came to pickup bodies. You have to figure that they are cohorts. Nothing wrong with what they did. As for the laughing and begging for the excuse to shoot, if you haven't been there you can't know what they go through to cope.
 
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I

It's On A Slab

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I thought the interesting part was the guy laughing about himself running over one of the bodies.

That and the gunner begging for another excuse to shoot.

If it wasn't so bad, why did the military try to cover it up?
I would have to say it's an unfortunate thing that happens when bullets fly in a war zone. If these soldiers were flagrantly killing civilians indiscriminately, I hope the UCMJ takes care of the issue.

But your point on military cover-up is well taken. The military is like law enforcement in its zeal at trying to cover for one's own buddies' screwups. One can only look at the way the Pat Tillman friendly-fire incident was handled, and the complicity there went right up the chain of command to the generals. Though, we'll never know the full story.
 

NYBamaFan

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I would have to say it's an unfortunate thing that happens when bullets fly in a war zone. If these soldiers were flagrantly killing civilians indiscriminately, I hope the UCMJ takes care of the issue.

But your point on military cover-up is well taken. The military is like law enforcement in its zeal at trying to cover for one's own buddies' screwups. One can only look at the way the Pat Tillman friendly-fire incident was handled, and the complicity there went right up the chain of command to the generals. Though, we'll never know the full story.
I am not sure how this is being labeled a "cover-up". The deaths of the two journalists was made public, with an apology, immediately after this happened.
 

Ldlane

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The language of conquest is very interesting...being that the call sign of one of the participants is Crazy Horse.

Other than that, it's pretty "par for the course."
 

Crimson Speed

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Not to forget, our troops were taking small arms fire from those guys. The guys in the chopper did what they had to do with cannon rounds and hell fire missles. There could have been some people on the ground that were not armed, but they were in the group with those that were armed.

War is pure hell, but we have to protect our own troops in these situations. If I were one of those guys in the Bradley, no way I would want to drive into an ambush without the guys overhead clearing a path for me. One of the enemy was carrying an RPG which would have ripped the Bradley apart. I hate that children were hurt, but sometimes bad things happen in war. If our guys had known there were children in that van, you can bet they would not have fired.
 
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Crimson Pig

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Seems like you are quick to convict. You posted the video people watched it and don't agree with you. Have you ever been in that situation or even in the military? I was in the military but not in a wartime situation and I have don't feel like I can judge these guys for anything that happened. The guys they shot had weapons and the van came to pickup bodies. You have to figure that they are cohorts. Nothing wrong with what they did. As for the laughing and begging for the excuse to shoot, if you haven't been there you can't know what they go through to cope.
Actually, given my current profession I have a small idea(i mean that literally, not sarcastically. a small idea) of what it is like to have to cope with extreme stress. I also posted this as my response to the video.

I can't and won't judge anyone based on this video. I've never been involved with war. I've never had to fear for my life that way. I've never had to place partial responsibility for my life in the hands of the guy covering me. That said, I've never had to watch that person,possibly a good friend, die either.

Hindsight is 20/20. I suppose some things are made obvious in this video, and it's unfortunate. What I also can't do is fault the guys for being as paranoid as they were. I can't imagine what that's like. Personally I know that it's always better to side with caution.

Is that a gun? Not sure. ...contemplate the fact that I am in a war and people try to kill me on a daily basis... Will approach the situation assuming that it is a gun, just in case.

Vehicle. Is it occupied? Can't tell. Will approach as though it is, just in case. If there are people in the vehicle, could they be armed? ...contemplate the fact that I am in a war and people try to kill me on a daily basis... I will approach the situation assuming that the people are armed, just in case. But would I immediately fire into the vehicle? There's your line. How does one safely approach that kind of situation? "Excuse me, Mr. Person-Living-Amongst-An-Extremist-Religious-Culture-Not-Above-Blowing-Up-Yourself-And-Everyone-Else-To-Get-Your-Point-Accross, but could you make your hands visible and step out here?" I mean, how do you even work up the will to get anywhere CLOSE to people like that?

And now you've got a situation, a number of guys with equipment and you can't tell what it is. You have every reason to believe that they could be dangerous. Could there have been a better way to determine that? God, I hope so.

I won't pass judgement on these guys. None of us that haven't been there can say that we in that position would know 100% how we would react. You can't know, and if you say otherwise you're a liar.

I can say, though, that I didn't think running over a body was worthy of a chuckle. But dehumanizing an enemy is also something I have no experience in.

I can say that it would only take one, "Empty street, nice quite patrol. Civilian, looks mostly harmleOHSHI-" experience for me to approach any situation for the rest of my life in a state of suspicious alertness.
 
I

It's On A Slab

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I am not sure how this is being labeled a "cover-up". The deaths of the two journalists was made public, with an apology, immediately after this happened.
I'm saying that I hope it won't be covered up, and that, if there are any parties that need to be brought to justice, that justice is served.
 

swoop10

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Actually, given my current profession I have a small idea(i mean that literally, not sarcastically. a small idea) of what it is like to have to cope with extreme stress. I also posted this as my response to the video.

I can't and won't judge anyone based on this video. I've never been involved with war. I've never had to fear for my life that way. I've never had to place partial responsibility for my life in the hands of the guy covering me. That said, I've never had to watch that person,possibly a good friend, die either.

Hindsight is 20/20. I suppose some things are made obvious in this video, and it's unfortunate. What I also can't do is fault the guys for being as paranoid as they were. I can't imagine what that's like. Personally I know that it's always better to side with caution.

Is that a gun? Not sure. ...contemplate the fact that I am in a war and people try to kill me on a daily basis... Will approach the situation assuming that it is a gun, just in case.

Vehicle. Is it occupied? Can't tell. Will approach as though it is, just in case. If there are people in the vehicle, could they be armed? ...contemplate the fact that I am in a war and people try to kill me on a daily basis... I will approach the situation assuming that the people are armed, just in case. But would I immediately fire into the vehicle? There's your line. How does one safely approach that kind of situation? "Excuse me, Mr. Person-Living-Amongst-An-Extremist-Religious-Culture-Not-Above-Blowing-Up-Yourself-And-Everyone-Else-To-Get-Your-Point-Accross, but could you make your hands visible and step out here?" I mean, how do you even work up the will to get anywhere CLOSE to people like that?

And now you've got a situation, a number of guys with equipment and you can't tell what it is. You have every reason to believe that they could be dangerous. Could there have been a better way to determine that? God, I hope so.

I won't pass judgement on these guys. None of us that haven't been there can say that we in that position would know 100% how we would react. You can't know, and if you say otherwise you're a liar.

I can say, though, that I didn't think running over a body was worthy of a chuckle. But dehumanizing an enemy is also something I have no experience in.

I can say that it would only take one, "Empty street, nice quite patrol. Civilian, looks mostly harmleOHSHI-" experience for me to approach any situation for the rest of my life in a state of suspicious alertness.
Good answer, and I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only question I have about the running over the body is, do we know if this was night time or during daylight? I agree that the chuckle probably wasn't in good taste but after having to do what those guys have to do, it doesn't suprise me. They have to justify killing in their own minds and if someone has to go to place where they laugh instead of go crazy, well I can understand that. I wasn't trying to judge you with my first post, just trying to figure out where you stood on this issue.
 

gmart74

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This country is generally filled with too many pansies to even properly deal with regular crime, much less war. I have often said we seem a little too preoccupied with being gentle while we are killing people. I laughed when they made a big deal about peeing on the Koran while we are trying to kill people. I also laugh every time I see or hear about hand wringing over everything our troops do in the heat of battle. Basically my philosophy is that war should be a last resort. However once it is chosen, we should make it worse than hell for whichever country we are fighting. Shoot anything and everything, destroy anything and everything- total warfare until a civilization is completely obliterated. Have no regard for churches, children, drinking water or anything else. Maybe then we won't have to do it again. Basically we keep trying to have "nice wars." I disagree with that philosophy. The only way to make an enemy quit is to completely and utterly destroy his will to even live. Only at that point do you show generosity and kindness.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Maybe some need to watch the pregame speech of Coach Saban for the LSU game in 2008. "Make their *** quit!!". War is war. It's not XBox or Playstation. It's not a game. You are right. Once the decision is made to go to war then you do just that. Go to war.

This country is generally filled with too many pansies to even properly deal with regular crime, much less war. I have often said we seem a little too preoccupied with being gentle while we are killing people. I laughed when they made a big deal about peeing on the Koran while we are trying to kill people. I also laugh every time I see or hear about hand wringing over everything our troops do in the heat of battle. Basically my philosophy is that war should be a last resort. However once it is chosen, we should make it worse than hell for whichever country we are fighting. Shoot anything and everything, destroy anything and everything- total warfare until a civilization is completely obliterated. Have no regard for churches, children, drinking water or anything else. Maybe then we won't have to do it again. Basically we keep trying to have "nice wars." I disagree with that philosophy. The only way to make an enemy quit is to completely and utterly destroy his will to even live. Only at that point do you show generosity and kindness.
 

BFANLC

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I'll just be glad when the war's done with.The sooner we get out of there the better. To me there is no excuse for a child being killed and if it is happening then we need to look at ourselves and make sure we are doing all we can to make sure it doesn't happen again.
 

Tidewater

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The language of conquest is very interesting...being that the call sign of one of the participants is Crazy Horse.
The Apache pilots are in a cavalry unit, for Pete's sake. They use names like that to honor the courage of past opponents.
Other than that, it's pretty "par for the course."
You probably ought to explain that comment.
 

Ldlane

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The Apache pilots are in a cavalry unit, for Pete's sake. They use names like that to honor the courage of past opponents.
You probably ought to explain that comment.
Crazy Horse probably would have been on the other side. I think my comment is pretty self explanatory.
 

Tidewater

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Crazy Horse probably would have been on the other side. I think my comment is pretty self explanatory.
Maybe you missed the words "opponents' courage."
Do you believe that these soldiers knowingly killed civilians?
Do you believe that American soldiers today habitually knowingly kill civilians?
 
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