Link: Close down West Point, Annapolis, and the ** Academy in favor of expanded ROTC ?

[It's On A Slab]

washingtonpost.com

Are the academies becoming obsolete?

I thought the idea was ridiculous, but he does make some good points. There are just as many capable officers coming out of ROTC as there are the academies.

I don't see this idea being seriously considered. Too much tradition involved.

 

[Tidewater]

washingtonpost.com

Are the academies becoming obsolete?

I thought the idea was ridiculous, but he does make some good points. There are just as many capable officers coming out of ROTC as there are the academies.

I don't see this idea being seriously considered. Too much tradition involved.

This idea comes up from time to time.
The cost per cadet of running USMA, USNA and the Air Force sorority is astronomical.
I agree with you, though, it does not stand a chance of being adopted.
One interesting aspect would be increasing the number of schollies given out at Ivy League schools, which are very expensive. They may not stay beyond their service obligation (five years), but Ivy League schools produce more than their share of national leaders, and, with the number of members of Congress with military experience dropping, this might be a way to back door men and women into the halls of power who have served in the military.

 

[NYBamaFan]

I am not sure that we want our young officers fresh off indoctrination from the general collegiate professorial staffs. Seriously, there is a HUGE disconnect between mainstream America and collegiate America, with few exceptions (the service academies among them)...

 

[crimson fan man]

Good point, I agree.

 

[Bama Reb]

washingtonpost.com

Are the academies becoming obsolete?

I thought the idea was ridiculous, but he does make some good points. There are just as many capable officers coming out of ROTC as there are the academies.

I don't see this idea being seriously considered. Too much tradition involved.

I don't disagree when comparing the number of "capable" officers from ROTC vs. the military academies. I do disagree however, with the quality of officers, as the comparison between the two is ludicrous.

 

[Bama Torch in Pcola]

I may be a little jaded, as I rate the WP as one small step up from Pravda. But when I read that the academies churn out subpar graduates and that the academies serve only to "reinforce biases", I begin to smell a rat. I don't buy any of his arguments other than the ROTC is a good thing.

 

[THE BAMA IRISHMAN]

washingtonpost.com

Are the academies becoming obsolete?

I thought the idea was ridiculous, but he does make some good points. There are just as many capable officers coming out of ROTC as there are the academies.

I don't see this idea being seriously considered. Too much tradition involved.

Sadly with the current political climate it could happen. Hopefully the Ring Knockers of all three Military Academies do not allow this.

 

[Tidewater]

I don't disagree when comparing the number of "capable" officers from ROTC vs. the military academies. I do disagree however, with the quality of officers, as the comparison between the two is ludicrous.

I served with some outstanding USMA grads. On the other hand, I knew a West Point grad who used to beat his dog with a hose. (Later allowed to resign for the good of the service).
Another one had a bad habit of stepping out on his wife (ditto).
Spending four years at the academy does not wash out all the knuckleheads.
Speaking to a West Point grad on the issue a few years ago, and one of the serious issues was the abysmal retention rate of USMA grads. USMA grads have, if memory serves, a five year service obligation, and West Point grads were bailing at the end of that term at an alarming rate, much worse than ROTC grads. This brought into question the value of the Academy to the Army and the nation."West Point retention rate 2007"
The value of maintaining the Academies is less now than it was a hundred years ago, but, on the whole, it is still probably worth retaining. There is a limit, however.

 

[Bama4Ever831]

I am not sure that we want our young officers fresh off indoctrination from the general collegiate professorial staffs. Seriously, there is a HUGE disconnect between mainstream America and collegiate America, with few exceptions (the service academies among them)...

Perhaps, collegiate America is fast becoming the mainstream America as the current status quo is fast becoming obsolete.

 

[Pluck and Grit]

When I was in the service, I noticed that among junior officers, the academy grads were head and shoulders above the ROTC guys, as a rule.

Among senior officers, the distinction between academy and non-academy appeared to be less meaningful, to the point of being meaningless from my perspective.

This was something I took note of at that time..... It seemed obvious to me that the academies did a far better job of producing quality officers than ROTC did, but after an officer had been in the service a few years, his competence and capability had far more to do with his experience and ability than with where he went to school.

 

[rizolltizide]

I served with some outstanding USMA grads. On the other hand, I knew a West Point grad who used to beat his dog with a hose. (Later allowed to resign for the good of the service).
Another one had a bad habit of stepping out on his wife (ditto).
Spending four years at the academy does not wash out all the knuckleheads.
Speaking to a West Point grad on the issue a few years ago, and one of the serious issues was the abysmal retention rate of USMA grads. USMA grads have, if memory serves, a five year service obligation, and West Point grads were bailing at the end of that term at an alarming rate, much worse than ROTC grads. This brought into question the value of the Academy to the Army and the nation."West Point retention rate 2007"
The value of maintaining the Academies is less now than it was a hundred years ago, but, on the whole, it is still probably worth retaining. There is a limit, however.

Interesting. One of my in laws is a recent USNA grad, '04 if I remember correctly. Anyhow, really sharp guy as were all his buddies from the academy. Except for one of them, they all said they were going to do their time owed and get the hell out of there. He was on a sub based in Washington state and his time served was almost done so he was about to be free. The Navy sent a recruiter out to him and made him an offer to stay in for a couple more years that was too good to refuse. And he's planning to leave once that is up. He's now teaching new recruits to the sub and not even going to sea anymore

Personally, I think it is a certain individual that wants to go down that path and stay on that path for their entire career, and I think the number of those individuals is decreasing every year. I know when I was 18 the last thing I wanted to do was "join the army". Today, I've got to believe it is an even less popular choice.

Do you close the academies though? Probably not.

 

[Atlmetroguy]

Perhaps, collegiate America is fast becoming the mainstream America as the current status quo is fast becoming obsolete.

Care to substantiate your claim with proof or is this opinion?

 

[Tidewater]

Perhaps, collegiate America is fast becoming the mainstream America as the current status quo is fast becoming obsolete.

While the military needs to be recruited from the society it protects, it definitely needs to be different from that society.
Military personnel enjoy severely constrained first amendment rights, modified fourth amendment rights, etc.
Basic training of any service is desigend to turn civilians into soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen.
If society is evolving in a certain direction, the military may not be able to follow, at least not too closely.

 

[formersoldier71]

washingtonpost.com

.....he does make some good points.

Eh, I don't know.

On top of the economic advantage, I've been told by some commanders that they prefer officers who come out of ROTC programs.....

I find it hard to believe that the cost of the academies would resonate with the large number of folks that feel that the government should do everything for everybody. His other point here seems to me to be anecdotal, which most folks here would not accept as evidence.

Although West Point's history and social science departments provided much intellectual firepower in rethinking the U.S. approach to Iraq, most of West Point's faculty lacks doctorates.

Maybe there's a lot of professors that actually belive in capitalism, at least as it pertains to them. If the government instituted wage limits for professors, then there would be no reason for them not to teach at one of the academies.

We should also consider closing the services' war colleges, where colonels supposedly learn strategic thinking. These institutions strike me as second-rate.
Just ask David Petraeus, a Princeton PhD.

General Petraeus is also a graduate of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College. He's also been an assistant professor at the USMA. What experiences lead this writer to call the war colleges second-rate? If General Petraeus, or some members of the the Joint Chiefs, seconded this opinion then I would assign it some merit.