obama just stated his support for same sex marriage

[Giant Squid]

When you open it up to our representative Republic -- and it gets defeated over and over again.......that this isn't something that the majority of Americans want or are comfortable with.

So what? A majority of people in a town might not be comfortable with my choice to build a Jewish synagogue within the city limits, but that doesn't negate my human right to freedom of religion. A majority of people in a certain state might oppose interracial marriage, but that doesn't eliminate my right to marry someone of my own choice. Rights are enshrined in law to prevent tyranny of the majority.

I've heard people compare this to Slavery and Women's Suffrage -- but unless someone can show me how maintaining the Status Quo on this subject is comparable to those, I'd be happy to listen

It is similar in that the laws deny are denying a certain group complete legal equality with all other citizens because of the way they were born.

 

[GreatDanish]

It is similar in that the laws deny are denying a certain group complete legal equality with all other citizens because of the way they were born.

it is different because I have several gay friends in states where gay marriage is not recognized, yet they live very normal lives. Have jobs, live together, get paid well, have many friends, hold offices and have leadership positions in business and community, etc. I don't think the same could be said of pre-suffrage women and slaves.
l am a pro-get-govt-out-of-marriage-altogether guy, but I think comparing gays to slaves weakens the argument because it is such an exaggeration of their plight.

 

[ValuJet]

it is different because I have several gay friends in states where gay marriage is not recognized, yet they live very normal lives. Have jobs, live together, get paid well, have many friends, hold offices and have leadership positions in business and community, etc. I don't think the same could be said of pre-suffrage women and slaves.
l am a pro-get-govt-out-of-marriage-altogether guy, but I think comparing gays to slaves weakens the argument because it is such an exaggeration of their plight.

It's election season. No one wants to hear about the wild success of the bought-and-paid-for-ObamaCare, No one wants to see replays of Nancy Pelosi saying "We HAVE to pass the bill so we can find out what is in it." No one wants to be reminded of the Beer Summit, or the events leading to it. No one wants to discuss the new $17 Trillion deficit. No one wants to discuss "Fast and Furious."

And, no one wants to discuss this latest snafu when Pres. Obama says he's leaving it up to the states to decide on gay...er...uh...."marriage equality" while directing his puppet Eric Holder to sue states for enforcing existing immigration laws.

 

[rizolltizide]

One of these days, if I decide to start banging dudes and find one I'd like to settle down and have babies with, I'd appreciate the opportunity to be his husband.

 

[92tide]

It's election season. No one wants to hear about the wild success of the bought-and-paid-for-ObamaCare, No one wants to see replays of Nancy Pelosi saying "We HAVE to pass the bill so we can find out what is in it." No one wants to be reminded of the Beer Summit, or the events leading to it. No one wants to discuss the new $17 Trillion deficit. No one wants to discuss "Fast and Furious."

And, no one wants to discuss this latest snafu when Pres. Obama says he's leaving it up to the states to decide on gay...er...uh...."marriage equality" while directing his puppet Eric Holder to sue states for enforcing existing immigration laws.

that just means you are going to have to step it up and post 3 or 4 obama outrages every day

 

[GreatDanish]

One of these days, if I decide to start banging dudes and find one I'd like to settle down and have babies with, I'd appreciate the opportunity to be his husband.

You just want to double your wardrobe.

 

[rizolltizide]

I only wear Bugatchi.

 

[RogueElephant]

One of these days, if I decide to start banging dudes and find one I'd like to settle down and have babies with, I'd appreciate the opportunity to be his husband.

A dude and a monkey having a baby? Should be interesting.

 

[Giant Squid]

it is different because I have several gay friends in states where gay marriage is not recognized, yet they live very normal lives. Have jobs, live together, get paid well, have many friends, hold offices and have leadership positions in business and community, etc.

What do you say to the comparison with laws that banned interracial marriage? That seems to be an almost perfect analogy.

l am a pro-get-govt-out-of-marriage-altogether guy

So then you think that both heterosexual and homosexual couples should have the right to civil unions? Clarify for me.

 

[GreatDanish]

I only wear Bugatchi.

They don't even make underw... Oh.

 

[GreatDanish]

What do you say to the comparison with laws that banned interracial marriage? That seems to be an almost perfect analogy.


So then you think that both heterosexual and homosexual couples should have the right to civil unions then? Clarify for me.

1. Well, interracial marriage is a separate point. I was just saying that to compare gays today to slaves is a greatly exaggerated comparison. If we are talking interracial marriage, then I would personally disagree with a ban.
2. Yes, I am fine with any consenting adults to have the right to civil unions. But, just to clarify, I do not consider a civil union an inalienable right, so if a locality wants to ban a kind of civil union, I am okay with that.

 

[Giant Squid]

1. Well, interracial marriage is a separate point.

I'd argue that it's exactly the same point, the point being that banning a marriage between two consenting adults because their love makes other people upset is discriminatory.

2. Yes, I am fine with any consenting adults to have the right to civil unions. But, just to clarify, I do not consider a civil union an inalienable right, so if a locality wants to ban a kind of civil union, I am okay with that.

So you think that, for example, the state of Alabama should have the power to ban "civil unions" between different races? Or the state of Rhode Island should be able to ban "civil unions" between Christians and Jews?

 

[CajunCrimson]

So you would be opposed to the concept of a true democracy? Majority rule?

Because it also seems you are opposed to the representative republic approach too where it becomes a states issue

Perhaps you would prefer to just let Obama decide and maybe sign an executive order?

So what? A majority of people in a town might not be comfortable with my choice to build a Jewish synagogue within the city limits, but that doesn't negate my human right to freedom of religion. A majority of people in a certain state might oppose interracial marriage, but that doesn't eliminate my right to marry someone of my own choice. Rights are enshrined in law to prevent tyranny of the majority.



It is similar in that the laws deny are denying a certain group complete legal equality with all other citizens because of the way they were born.

 

[92tide]

I'd argue that it's exactly the same point, the point being that banning a marriage between two consenting adults because their love makes other people upset is discriminatory.



So you think that, for example, the state of Alabama should have the power to ban "civil unions" between different races? Or the state of Rhode Island should be able to ban "civil unions" between Christians and Jews?

i've dated a couple of jewish girls. there was nothing at all civil about those unions at all

 

[GreatDanish]

I'd argue that it's exactly the same point, the point being that banning a marriage between two consenting adults because their love makes other people upset is discriminatory.

No. Gays are not slaves. That is my point. You might want to make a separate point, but that is not mine, and I will not be misdirected.

So you think that, for example, the state of Alabama should have the power to ban "civil unions" between different races? Or the state of Rhode Island should be able to ban "civil unions" between Christians and Jews?

yes. State choice. Not inalienable right. I think it is wrong and think it would not be passed.

 

[Giant Squid]

So you would be opposed to the concept of a true democracy? Majority rule?

I'm exactly as opposed to the concept of pure democracy as the Founders were. I prefer the kind of republic that they established in the Constitution. But don't argue with me about it, argue with these guys:

James Madison - “Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

Dr. Benjamin Rush - “ a simple democracy … is one of the greatest of evils.”

Gouverneur Morris - “We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate … as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism … Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to the level of folly and guilt.”

Alexander Hamilton - "Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy."

Thomas Jefferson - "All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."

My human rights and the fundamental equality of all people aren't subject to your vote. Not at the state level, not anywhere. If America ought to stand for anything, it should stand for the principle that all people are born with equal rights, privileges, and protections under the law. The Bill of Rights exists to protect those types of speech, religion, assembly, and people that are in the minority and unpopular from the tyranny of majority rule, or as the Founders called it, "the mob."

Perhaps you would prefer to just let Obama decide and maybe sign an executive order?

Nice strawman argument!

yes. State choice. Not inalienable right.

The Supreme Court (and settled case law) disagrees with you. To quote from the majority decision in Loving v. Virginia, the case that struck down state bans on interracial marriage:

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

What does this have to do with homosexual marriage today? Here's a statement from Mildred Loving, one of the plaintiffs in Loving v. Virginia: "Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.

I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life."

 

[CrimsonNagus]

I'm just tired of the gay community telling me what I should believe in and telling me how intolerant I am towards there lifestyle. They want me to respect there beliefs and way of life but, they refuse to respect my beliefs and way of life. Sounds like they are just as intolerant as I am.

Look, I don't care what anyone on this board thinks of me, I'm going to believe in what I want to believe in and I will never vote for same sex marriage. It goes against my beliefs, sorry but it just does. I'm standing up for what I believe in, you guys can call me a bigot or whatever, I don't care. No amount of shame being flung from the other side will ever force me to change my beliefs. I'm just tired of being called intolerant when they are just as intolerant towards me. I have the same issue with atheist, who seem very mad at a God they don't believe in and are so intolerant towards those who do believe.

I'm serious, I don't believe in same sex marriage and I don't care what you guys may think of me because of that and, I don't have to come back and explain why? I have no problems with the gay lifestyle, people can mount whoever they want to but, I draw the line at same sex marriage, sorry but that's just how I feel.

Lets make a deal, you vote how you want to and I'll vote how I want to. When more people vote your way, you get what you want. When more people vote my way, I get what I want. That's how it works, deal? If same sex marriage is ever made legal in this state or at the Federal level, then I'll be fine with it, won't sit around crying about. Until then stop running all over my beliefs just because they don't fall in line with yours.

Now, let me have it but, just remember, you ain't changing my beliefs.

 

[CajunCrimson]

Here is my point. Not in favor of a pure democracy, no argument there. But you can't have a representative constitutional government that alters the rules of government when a small group dislikes what the majority votes. (example-Obamacare)

36 state votes in a row have opposed Gay Marriage.... No state votes have been for it. Civil Rights legislation had the majority behind it .... Or it wouldn't have been ratified.....

Apparently the country is not ready...otherwise it would not be meeting such resistance. You will have to wait until society is ready....whether you like it or not.....it's not yet ready...

Just because those that are in favor scream louder doesn't mean they are the majority...

When it's time, it will pass....

It's aparently not time

 

[bamacon]

This is all just a sop to the lawyers...divorces and all

 

[92tide]

I'm just tired of the gay community telling me what I should believe in and telling me how intolerant I am towards there lifestyle. They want me to respect there beliefs and way of life but, they refuse to respect my beliefs and way of life. Sounds like they are just as intolerant as I am.

Look, I don't care what anyone on this board thinks of me, I'm going to believe in what I want to believe in and I will never vote for same sex marriage. It goes against my beliefs, sorry but it just does. I'm standing up for what I believe in, you guys can call me a bigot or whatever, I don't care. No amount of shame being flung from the other side will ever force me to change my beliefs. I'm just tired of being called intolerant when they are just as intolerant towards me. I have the same issue with atheist, who seem very mad at a God they don't believe in and are so intolerant towards those who do believe.

I'm serious, I don't believe in same sex marriage and I don't care what you guys may think of me because of that and, I don't have to come back and explain why? I have no problems with the gay lifestyle, people can mount whoever they want to but, I draw the line at same sex marriage, sorry but that's just how I feel.

Lets make a deal, you vote how you want to and I'll vote how I want to. When more people vote your way, you get what you want. When more people vote my way, I get what I want. That's how it works, deal? If same sex marriage is ever made legal in this state or at the Federal level, then I'll be fine with it, won't sit around crying about. Until then stop running all over my beliefs just because they don't fall in line with yours.

Now, let me have it but, just remember, you ain't changing my beliefs.

thats ok. Jesus still loves you