Biden to pull the US out of Afghanistan (Afghan Government has Fallen)

[CrimsonNagus]

I know we can't trust this, but them even saying it is a surprise to me:

Taliban promise women's rights, security under Islamic rule

The Taliban vowed Tuesday to respect women's rights, forgive those who fought them and ensure Afghanistan does not become a haven for terrorists as part of a publicity blitz aimed at reassuring world powers and a fearful population. Following a lightning offensive across Afghanistan that saw...

news.yahoo.com

I swear, why is the media so gullible. Why are they wasting their time giving the Taliban a voice. Actions always speak louder than words. This was a lie before they even said it (first 2 are from July, last one from 6 days ago):

Afghanistan: Taliban beheaded Afghan interpreter for US military. Others fear they will be hunted down - CNN

Taliban hunting down Afghan allies as US withdrawal continues | Don't Miss This | kokomotribune.com

Women in Afghanistan: The Taliban knocked on her door 3 times. The fourth time, they killed her - CNN

Taliban reportedly 'going door to door' targeting women in crackdown | JOE.co.uk

Taliban going door to door forcing girls as young as 12 to be ‘sex slaves’ (news.com.au)

Want more because there are plenty? They are barbarians and deserve to be treated as such.

 

[B1GTide]

I swear, why is the media so gullible. Why are they wasting their time giving the Taliban a voice. Actions always speak louder than words. This was a lie before they even said it (first 2 are from July, last one from 6 days ago):

Afghanistan: Taliban beheaded Afghan interpreter for US military. Others fear they will be hunted down - CNN

Taliban hunting down Afghan allies as US withdrawal continues | Don't Miss This | kokomotribune.com

Women in Afghanistan: The Taliban knocked on her door 3 times. The fourth time, they killed her - CNN

Taliban reportedly 'going door to door' targeting women in crackdown | JOE.co.uk

Taliban going door to door forcing girls as young as 12 to be ‘sex slaves’ (news.com.au)

Want more because there are plenty? They are barbarians and deserve to be treated as such.

Even Al Jazeera is reporting these stories with hope, small as that hope might be. We have to hope at this point, because we are not going back in there.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Even Al Jazeera is reporting these stories with hope, small as that hope might be. We have to hope at this point, because we are not going back in there.

Oh, we'll be back.

 

[B1GTide]

Oh, we'll be back.

I thought you were an optimist? Going back does nothing to help anyone - it just costs more American lives.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I thought you were an optimist? Going back does nothing to help anyone - it just costs more American lives.

I am, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to what's going on.

I've seen tweets indicating that terrorist cells that were set up in Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, etc are already on the move to Afghanistan as it's well-known the Talilban will support them.

We will have to go back at some point - it is what it is.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

 

[92tide]

Is there any info as to where Afghan President Ashraf Ghani fled and is now?

my guess is he's headed for a suite at mar-a-lago

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427973568630083587

 

[B1GTide]

I am, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to what's going on.

I've seen tweets indicating that terrorist cells that were set up in Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, etc are already on the move to Afghanistan as it's well-known the Talilban will support them.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

Oh, we may bomb them into the stone ages, but I am betting that we are not invading them again.

 

[B1GTide]

my guess is he's headed for a suite at mar-a-lago

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427973568630083587

$169MM - all American cash. Do we let him get away with that? If so, who got paid to allow it to happen?

 

[crimsonaudio]

Oh, we may bomb them into the stone ages, but I am betting that we are not invading them again.

We already know bombing doesn't work well there. We'll have boots on the ground again at some point, but they'll be almost entirely SOCOM and there will be precise missions - in and out.

 

[B1GTide]

We already know bombing doesn't work well there. We'll have boots on the ground again at some point, but they'll be almost entirely SOCOM and there will be precise missions - in and out.

That I can see - we do that the world over.

 

[MobtownK]

These women are brave. Idk if I'd have the courage to do it - I'd probably just try to get out quietly.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427757717284864001

And I saw this on reddit - posted in entirety. I thought it was interesting & learned a lot from it.



r/neoliberal

•Posted by
u/semaphore-1842

The Afghan military did NOT surrender without a fight

Effortpost
Disclaimer: This post is not about the Biden administration or American partisan politics. It is not calling for a change in policy or past decisions.
The Fall of Afghanistan will surely be studied for years to come, but one narrative has emerged early that the Afghan army simply ran away without firing a shot. It's a troubling rhetoric that more often than not, is accompanied by an insinuation that the Afghan people *welcomed* the Taliban. Some go as far as suggesting they don't "deserve freedom" if they're too "cowardly" to fight.
But it's not true at all.
It's easy to see why pundits jumped to the conclusion, given the ease with which the provincial capitals fell in the final ten days. In reality, however, intense fighting had been going on for months. By August 5, the Afghan security forces suffered 1,537 killed in less than 100 days. For comparison, US forces lost 2,355 in 20 years. The Afghans bled more fighting the Taliban than we ever did.
(Also, the ANA was never 300,000 strong despite the regularly cited figure. They were always severely beneath the authorized strength, no thanks for the corrupt political leadership using "ghost soldiers" to line their own pockets)
So what happened to the supposedly well trained and equipped Afghan army? Reading the reports of the fighting reveal beleaguered soldiers let down by systematic failures across the board. Take for example the following excerpts from this New York Times article:

It began with individual outposts in rural areas where starving and ammunition-depleted soldiers and police units were surrounded by Taliban fighters and promised safe passage if they surrendered and left behind their equipment . . . As positions collapsed, the complaint was almost always the same: There was no air support or they had run out of supplies and food.
After weeks of fighting, one cardboard box full of slimy potatoes was supposed to pass as a police unit’s daily rations. They hadn’t received anything other than spuds in various forms in several days, and their hunger and fatigue were wearing them down.

This is also supported by this piece from the Wall Street Journal:

“In the last days, there was no food, no water and no weapons,” said trooper Taj Mohammad, 38. Fleeing in one armored personnel carrier and one Ford Ranger, the remaining men finally made a run to the relative safety of the provincial capital, which collapsed weeks later. They left behind another 11 APCs to the Taliban.
“When the Kunduz province fell to the Taliban, so many soldiers were killed. We were surrounded,” said Abdul Qudus, a 29-year-old soldier who managed to make his way to Kabul in the past week. “There was no air support. In the last minutes, our commander told us that they cannot do anything for us and it’s just better to run away. Everyone left the war and escaped.”

And the various news reports of bloody fighting the Afghan military had engaged in before their final collapse, such as when a reinforced platoon of 50 attempted to retake the Dawlat Abad district from the Taliban on June 16:

But several hours later, a much larger Taliban force attacked the elite force from all sides, killing at least 24 commandos and five police officers. Several troops are wounded and missing, the military official said, and despite calls for air support, no aircraft were able to respond in time.
On Thursday alone, the neighboring district of Shirin Tagab fell after Afghan forces there fought for days and ran out of ammunition

As Reuters also noted:

Over many years, hundreds of Afghan soldiers were killed each month. But the army fought on, without any of the airborne evacuation of casualties and expert surgical care standard in Western armies, as long as international backing was there.

Yes, certainly some Afghan units deserted or switched sides without a fight. But many Afghan units fought bravely till they were out of food, ammo, and cut off from reinforcements. They don't deserve to be treated like cowards.
So what went wrong? There are plenty of blame to go around and the finger pointing isn't helpful. However there are some objective systematic failures we can point to.
(1) The afghan military was the wrong army built for the wrong country.

NYT: These shortfalls can be traced to numerous issues that sprung from the West’s insistence on building a fully modern military with all the logistical and supply complexities one requires, and which has proved unsustainable without the United States and its NATO allies.
WSJ: “There is always a tendency to use the model you know, which is your own model . . . When you build an army like that, and it’s meant to be a partner with a sophisticated force like the Americans, you can’t pull the Americans out all of a sudden, because then they lose the day-to-day assistance that they need,” he said.
When U.S. forces were still operating here, the Afghan government sought to maximize its presence through the country’s far-flung countryside, maintaining more than 200 bases and outposts that could be resupplied only by air.
Reuters: But whether it was ever a realistic goal to create a Western-style army . . . is an open question. U.S. army trainers who worked with Afghan forces struggled to teach the basic lesson of military organization that supplies, maintaining equipment and ensuring units get proper support are key to battlefield success.
The chronic failure of logistical, hardware and manpower support to many units, meant that "even if they want to fight, they run out of the ability to fight in relatively short order."

Without the US, the Afghan military could not re-supply or reinforce these positions. It's no wonder that they were picked off by the Taliban piecemeal. The Afghan government should have anticipated it and redeployed those forces to match the new operational reality, but failed to do so. Which brings us to:
(2) The Afghan government it was corrupt and inept.

Reuters: American officers have long worried that rampant corruption, well documented in parts of Afghanistan's military and political leadership, would undermine the resolve of badly paid, ill-fed and erratically supplied front-line soldiers - some of whom have been left for months or even years on end in isolated outposts, where they could be picked off by the Taliban.
NYT: Soldiers and police officers have expressed ever-deeper resentment of the Afghan leadership. Officials often turned a blind eye to what was happening, knowing full well that the Afghan forces’ real manpower count was far lower than what was on the books, skewed by corruption and secrecy that they quietly accepted.
WSJ: Mr. Ghani had ample warning of the American departure after the Trump administration signed the February 2020 agreement with the Taliban that called on all U.S. forces and contractors to leave by May 2021. Yet, the Afghan government failed to adjust its military footprint to match the new reality. Many officials didn’t believe in their hearts that the Americans would actually leave.

Months of bloody defeats and a government they could not depend on, resulted in collapse of the Afghan military morale. And this we have to admit:
(3) The Taliban waged a highly successful psychological war, as well as diplomatic subterfuge.

WSJ: When the Taliban launched their offensive in May, they concentrated on overrunning those isolated outposts, massacring soldiers who were determined to resist but allowing safe conduct to those who surrendered, often via deals negotiated by local tribal elders. The Taliban gave pocket money to some of these troops, who had gone unpaid for months.

So, it's easy to only look at the final 10 days of the Taliban blitz and say the ANA didn't bother fighting. But that's a bit like saying Germany surrendered without a fight at Versailles

 

[B1GTide]

These women are brave. Idk if I'd have the courage to do it - I'd probably just try to get out quietly.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427757717284864001

And I saw this on reddit - posted in entirety. I thought it was interesting & learned a lot from it.



r/neoliberal

•Posted by
u/semaphore-1842

The Afghan military did NOT surrender without a fight

Effortpost
Disclaimer: This post is not about the Biden administration or American partisan politics. It is not calling for a change in policy or past decisions.
The Fall of Afghanistan will surely be studied for years to come, but one narrative has emerged early that the Afghan army simply ran away without firing a shot. It's a troubling rhetoric that more often than not, is accompanied by an insinuation that the Afghan people *welcomed* the Taliban. Some go as far as suggesting they don't "deserve freedom" if they're too "cowardly" to fight.
But it's not true at all.
It's easy to see why pundits jumped to the conclusion, given the ease with which the provincial capitals fell in the final ten days. In reality, however, intense fighting had been going on for months. By August 5, the Afghan security forces suffered 1,537 killed in less than 100 days. For comparison, US forces lost 2,355 in 20 years. The Afghans bled more fighting the Taliban than we ever did.
(Also, the ANA was never 300,000 strong despite the regularly cited figure. They were always severely beneath the authorized strength, no thanks for the corrupt political leadership using "ghost soldiers" to line their own pockets)
So what happened to the supposedly well trained and equipped Afghan army? Reading the reports of the fighting reveal beleaguered soldiers let down by systematic failures across the board. Take for example the following excerpts from this New York Times article:

This is also supported by this piece from the Wall Street Journal:

And the various news reports of bloody fighting the Afghan military had engaged in before their final collapse, such as when a reinforced platoon of 50 attempted to retake the Dawlat Abad district from the Taliban on June 16:

As Reuters also noted:

Yes, certainly some Afghan units deserted or switched sides without a fight. But many Afghan units fought bravely till they were out of food, ammo, and cut off from reinforcements. They don't deserve to be treated like cowards.
So what went wrong? There are plenty of blame to go around and the finger pointing isn't helpful. However there are some objective systematic failures we can point to.
(1) The afghan military was the wrong army built for the wrong country.

Without the US, the Afghan military could not re-supply or reinforce these positions. It's no wonder that they were picked off by the Taliban piecemeal. The Afghan government should have anticipated it and redeployed those forces to match the new operational reality, but failed to do so. Which brings us to:
(2) The Afghan government it was corrupt and inept.

Months of bloody defeats and a government they could not depend on, resulted in collapse of the Afghan military morale. And this we have to admit:
(3) The Taliban waged a highly successful psychological war, as well as diplomatic subterfuge.

So, it's easy to only look at the final 10 days of the Taliban blitz and say the ANA didn't bother fighting. But that's a bit like saying Germany surrendered without a fight at Versailles

I wish those women luck, but fear for their safety.

 

[81usaf92]

These women are brave. Idk if I'd have the courage to do it - I'd probably just try to get out quietly.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427757717284864001

And I saw this on reddit - posted in entirety. I thought it was interesting & learned a lot from it.



r/neoliberal

•Posted by
u/semaphore-1842

The Afghan military did NOT surrender without a fight

Effortpost
Disclaimer: This post is not about the Biden administration or American partisan politics. It is not calling for a change in policy or past decisions.
The Fall of Afghanistan will surely be studied for years to come, but one narrative has emerged early that the Afghan army simply ran away without firing a shot. It's a troubling rhetoric that more often than not, is accompanied by an insinuation that the Afghan people *welcomed* the Taliban. Some go as far as suggesting they don't "deserve freedom" if they're too "cowardly" to fight.
But it's not true at all.
It's easy to see why pundits jumped to the conclusion, given the ease with which the provincial capitals fell in the final ten days. In reality, however, intense fighting had been going on for months. By August 5, the Afghan security forces suffered 1,537 killed in less than 100 days. For comparison, US forces lost 2,355 in 20 years. The Afghans bled more fighting the Taliban than we ever did.
(Also, the ANA was never 300,000 strong despite the regularly cited figure. They were always severely beneath the authorized strength, no thanks for the corrupt political leadership using "ghost soldiers" to line their own pockets)
So what happened to the supposedly well trained and equipped Afghan army? Reading the reports of the fighting reveal beleaguered soldiers let down by systematic failures across the board. Take for example the following excerpts from this New York Times article:

This is also supported by this piece from the Wall Street Journal:

And the various news reports of bloody fighting the Afghan military had engaged in before their final collapse, such as when a reinforced platoon of 50 attempted to retake the Dawlat Abad district from the Taliban on June 16:

As Reuters also noted:

Yes, certainly some Afghan units deserted or switched sides without a fight. But many Afghan units fought bravely till they were out of food, ammo, and cut off from reinforcements. They don't deserve to be treated like cowards.
So what went wrong? There are plenty of blame to go around and the finger pointing isn't helpful. However there are some objective systematic failures we can point to.
(1) The afghan military was the wrong army built for the wrong country.

Without the US, the Afghan military could not re-supply or reinforce these positions. It's no wonder that they were picked off by the Taliban piecemeal. The Afghan government should have anticipated it and redeployed those forces to match the new operational reality, but failed to do so. Which brings us to:
(2) The Afghan government it was corrupt and inept.

Months of bloody defeats and a government they could not depend on, resulted in collapse of the Afghan military morale. And this we have to admit:
(3) The Taliban waged a highly successful psychological war, as well as diplomatic subterfuge.

So, it's easy to only look at the final 10 days of the Taliban blitz and say the ANA didn't bother fighting. But that's a bit like saying Germany surrendered without a fight at Versailles

@Jon kinda said on this thread or another… we probably should’ve just armed the women. As the past week has proved the men are useless.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

Even Al Jazeera is reporting these stories with hope, small as that hope might be. We have to hope at this point, because we are not going back in there.

I'm just saying that there is not a shred of hope. They are saying that they will respect women's rights and forgive those who fought them ... while kidnapping and killing women, girls and hunting down those who fought them. How is that hope?

Plus, they've said crap like this before over the decades and it's never true so, I'm not sure why people are giving it the time of day now.

 

[tattooguy21]

LOL - America is NATO. Without America, there is no NATO. The rest of the world literally does nothing while we spend and bleed for them.

Be careful....sounding a bit nationalist there. Which I for one am a fan of.

On a side note, if I were China I would announce, publicly, that they were taking Taiwan back and do so. The timing is perfect. The phone call to Taiwan's leadership would go something like, "they spent 20 years there and look how that turned out. They have no investment in you. Do you really think this will end well for you if you resist?"

I do not know how our administration would respond. I'm just saying that the chance to capitalize off this event is entirely in our known enemies hands right now.

 

[81usaf92]

Be careful....sounding a bit nationalist there. Which I for one am a fan of.

On a side note, if I were China I would announce, publicly, that they were taking Taiwan back and do so. The timing is perfect. The phone call to Taiwan's leadership would go something like, "they spent 20 years there and look how that turned out. They have no investment in you. Do you really think this will end well for you if you resist?"

I do not know how our administration would respond. I'm just saying that the chance to capitalize off this event is entirely in our known enemies hands right now.

China taking Taiwan would be extremely stupid for many reasons… economically would be the most important. China would probably kill all the progress they had under Deng in a second by invasion.

More or less… it’s a fantasy not a reality that China is ever going to invade Taiwan. Taiwan asking to join China is far more likely.

 

[B1GTide]

Be careful....sounding a bit nationalist there. Which I for one am a fan of.

On a side note, if I were China I would announce, publicly, that they were taking Taiwan back and do so. The timing is perfect. The phone call to Taiwan's leadership would go something like, "they spent 20 years there and look how that turned out. They have no investment in you. Do you really think this will end well for you if you resist?"

I do not know how our administration would respond. I'm just saying that the chance to capitalize off this event is entirely in our known enemies hands right now.

I am very much a nationalist when it comes to projecting our military strength around the world. We are not the world's police. We spend more than all of the other NATO countries combined on our military. IMO, until/unless other NATO countries up the ante, we should begin to pull back our military presence everywhere. Force them to put up or shut up. Stop pretending that they care about global freedom when they let America do all of the heavy lifting. Time to do some heavy lifting of their own.

Now, I am not really saying that they do nothing, but relative to what we do - they do nothing.

 

[B1GTide]

China taking Taiwan would be extremely stupid for many reasons… economically would be the most important. China would probably kill all the progress they had under Deng in a second by invasion.

More or less… it’s a fantasy not a reality that China is ever going to invade Taiwan. Taiwan asking to join China is far more likely.

I think that China was beginning to move in a direction that could have led to Taiwan reopening talks with China about a reunification, but the recent Chinese crackdown on businesses which do not follow government "rules" probably killed that. I don't know what happens with Taiwan, but I doubt that China wants to start a global war over it. And, if they do, I pray that we choose to sit it out.

 

[81usaf92]

I think that China was beginning to move in a direction that could have led to Taiwan reopening talks with China about a reunification, but the recent Chinese crackdown on businesses which do not follow government "rules" probably killed that. I don't know what happens with Taiwan, but I doubt that China wants to start a global war over it. And, if they do, I pray that we choose to sit it out.

Global war is probably the least of the concerns. Taking over another 27 million mouths in a what would be a war torn nation and facing economic sanctions by 70% of the UN would probably send them back to their economic situation under Mao.

Then after that you can worry about the logistics about the war itself.

 

[Go Bama]

I wish those women luck, but fear for their safety.

I fear those women are as good as dead.