Russia Invades Ukraine XVII

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Tidewater

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Good for Norway. I hope that there was some kind of strategic discussion behind closed doors as to ends, ways, and means. and not just "Here's another $4.5B."

I do believe Zelensky has the option to make Trump and the West the heavies in the eyes of the Ukrainian people ("I wanted to fight on until all the Ukrainian territory is liberated, but Trump et al. would not let me.")
 
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Bazza

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I don’t know how Trump justifies cutting off satellite intel to Ukraine. Costs us nothing on the margin and is hugely valuable to their ability to resist numerically superior Russians.

I’m looking for a reason to believe Putin hasn’t bought Trump.
He wants an end to the war.

I don't know why people don't understand such a simple concept.

Not picking on you, 4Q.

Just tired of seeing so many saying "I don't know why he's doing this?"

When he has made it crystal clear since before he was even elected....this is his objective.

I actually think he's been quite patient trying to initiate whatever is needed to get this to happen. Including trying to work with Zylenskyy and other countries. And bringing in members of his team to work on the problem.

Zylenskyy has showed he has no interest in ending the war. And the money coming in.....
 
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Bamaro

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I don’t know how Trump justifies cutting off satellite intel to Ukraine. Costs us nothing on the margin and is hugely valuable to their ability to resist numerically superior Russians.

I’m looking for a reason to believe Putin hasn’t bought Trump.
He's a spoiled petulant vindictive child and cant get over the 1st impeachment.


 

4Q Basket Case

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He wants an end to the war.

I don't know why people don't understand such a simple concept.

Not picking on you, 4Q.

Just tired of seeing so many saying "I don't know why he's doing this?"

When he has made it crystal clear since before he was even elected....this is his objective.

I actually think he's been quite patient trying to initiate whatever is needed to get this to happen. Including trying to work with Zylenskyy and other countries. And bringing in members of his team to work on the problem.

Zylenskyy has showed he has no interest in ending the war. And the money coming in.....
Well, Bazz, I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I want the Russia Ukraine war to end, too. There's more than one way that could happen -- Ukraine could win. Ukraine could lose. They could negotiate a settlement. Trump seems to want Door #2 -- for Ukraine to lose.

At this point, it's pretty clear that Ukraine can't win without troops on the ground from other countries. Which isn't realistic.

So I'm for a negotiated settlement that includes Ukraine giving up the eastern provinces, with peacekeeping forces in Ukraine to ensure Russia doesn't do this again in a few years. I'm not in favor of ending the war by Ukraine losing it and being absorbed back into Russia.

While I haven't seen a valid poll on the topic, I'm guessing that most Americans want something along those lines.

So I'll ask a follow-up question: Given where Russia would inevitably proceed from a victory in Ukraine, why would anybody want the war to end with a Ukrainian loss?
 
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Its On A Slab

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He's a spoiled petulant vindictive child and cant get over the 1st impeachment.


I loved how he nanner-nannered the Democrats in the SOTU over the "malicious prosecutions"......i.e., "How did that work out?"

The proper response should have been a hearty: YOU'RE A CONVICTED FELON. And but for the cowardice of his side of the aisle, he should have been banished to Mar a Lago (or the island of St Helena) during his 1st term.
 
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crimsonaudio

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I want the Russia Ukraine war to end, too. There's more than one way that could happen -- Ukraine could win. Ukraine could lose. They could negotiate a settlement. Trump seems to want Door #2 -- for Ukraine to lose.
I'm curious - what's the difference between Ukraine losing and a negotiated settlement?

If you mean Russian taking all of Ukraine, it seems to me that Trump doesn't want that, or else he'd simply continue to send weaponry while Russia inexorably grinds Ukraine to dust.
 

4Q Basket Case

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I'm curious - what's the difference between Ukraine losing and a negotiated settlement?

If you mean Russian taking all of Ukraine, it seems to me that Trump doesn't want that, or else he'd simply continue to send weaponry while Russia inexorably grinds Ukraine to dust.
That's a fair queston.

To me, a negotiated settlement is the best chance of preserving independence for as much of Ukraine as is realistically possible.

As a practical matter, the Ukrainians can't win the war in the sense of getting all their territory back. At least, not without other countries' forces joining them in actual combat -- which isn't on anybody's radar.

If the Ukrainians lose in the sense of either (1) breaking and surrendering soon, or (2) fighting on to the point of being ground to dust, Putin will move on to other targets -- the Balkans, the Baltics, Poland and Finland. Assuming he would still have the human and military resources to do that, which is another topic.

If the Ukrainians can settle, and have peacekeeping troops from NATO or Europe in place, they have a chance to salvage something.

It's unfair -- Ukraine is the victim of a clearly unprovoked aggressor. It's imperfect -- Ukraine will have to rebuild without help from the aggressor. Still, given that a true win is pretty clearly not in the cards, I see this as the best realistically-possible outcome.

And yes, I'm still irritated that Ukraine isn't drafting 18 - 24 year old men. But I'm more concerned about an emboldened Russia than I am irritated at Ukraine's personnel decisions.
 
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Tidewater

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Well, Bazz, I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I want the Russia Ukraine war to end, too. There's more than one way that could happen -- Ukraine could win. Ukraine could lose. They could negotiate a settlement. Trump seems to want Door #2 -- for Ukraine to lose.

At this point, it's pretty clear that Ukraine can't win without troops on the ground from other countries. Which isn't realistic.

So I'm for a negotiated settlement that includes Ukraine giving up the eastern provinces, with peacekeeping forces in Ukraine to ensure Russia doesn't do this again in a few years. I'm not in favor of ending the war by Ukraine losing it and being absorbed back into Russia.

While I haven't seen a valid poll on the topic, I'm guessing that most Americans want something along those lines.

So I'll ask a follow-up question: Given where Russia would inevitably proceed from a victory in Ukraine, why would anybody want the war to end with a Ukrainian loss?
I would argue that those seeking to extend the fighting in the quixotic hope of Ukraine regaining all its lost territory are the ones who want to end the war with a Ukrainian collapse. That is the inevitable ending if the fighting continues.

Right now, Putin is acting like he does not want the fighting to stop.
Zelensky, I believe, has maintained Ukraine's strategic objectives of restoring all the lost Ukrainian territory to Ukraine's control. Until he comes off that position, negotiating is going to be difficult.
 

Huckleberry

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Trump wants to see more than just a minerals deal to restart aid and intel to Ukraine

As U.S. and Ukrainian officials prepare to meet in Saudi Arabia this week, President Donald Trump has privately made clear to aides that a signed minerals deal between Washington and Kyiv won’t be enough to restart aid and intelligence sharing with the war-torn country, according an administration official and another U.S. official.

Trump wants the deal, which would give the U.S. a stake in Ukraine’s mineral resources, signed. But he also wants to see a change in Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s attitude toward peace talks, the officials said, including a willingness to make concessions such as giving up territory to Russia. Trump also wants Zelenskyy to make some movement toward elections in Ukraine and possibly toward stepping down as his country’s leader, the officials said.
 

Bazza

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Well, Bazz, I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one.
-snip-
Not so sure we're in disagreement here, 4Q. Here's why......

If you go back to my response to your post - it's almost 100% an explanation to your (2) inquiries:

1. I don’t know how Trump justifies cutting off satellite intel to Ukraine. -snip-

2. I’m looking for a reason to believe Putin hasn’t bought Trump.
===============

He simply wants to see an end to the war.

Bringing in a secondary debate or discussion is fine. I was just trying to help answer your inquiries of why he's doing what he's doing...that's all..

Thank you!
 

Huckleberry

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Not so sure we're in disagreement here, 4Q. Here's why......

If you go back to my response to your post - it's almost 100% an explanation to your (2) inquiries:



===============

He simply wants to see an end to the war.

Bringing in a secondary debate or discussion is fine. I was just trying to help answer your inquiries of why he's doing what he's doing...that's all..

Thank you!
Bazza, I so wish that I could believe that Trump was doing his best to end this war in as equitable manner as possible and that he has no ulterior motives, but every action he's taken so far has been to the detriment of Ukraine. If he wants to end this war and find a compromise that's acceptable to both sides, why no real pressure on Putin? Russia started this war and could end it today. Trump's moves give the appearance of his being on Putin's side (and that America is in it for some profit).
 
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Bazza

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Bazza, I so wish that I could believe that Trump was doing his best to end this war in as equitable manner as possible and that he has no ulterior motives, but every action he's taken so far has been to the detriment of Ukraine. If he wants to end this war and find a compromise that's acceptable to both sides, why no real pressure on Putin? Russia started this war and could end it today. Trump's moves give the appearance of his being on Putin's side (and that America is in it for some profit).
Huck - I love you man - but you're bringing in whole different discussions that I never brought up in my posts.

Again.......Trump wants to end the war.

I don't expect everyone to be on board with his actions...but that's a different discussion.
 

Huckleberry

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Huck - I love you man - but you're bringing in whole different discussions that I never brought up in my posts.

Again.......Trump wants to end the war.

I don't expect everyone to be on board with his actions...but that's a different discussion.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Bazza. And I do think that Trump wants to end the war, but I have a major problem with how it seems he's going about it. I'd really like to have that different discussion.
 

Huckleberry

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The US will assess Ukraine's willingness to sue for peace that goes beyond 2014 or 2022 borders.

The expected baseline of the March 2022 Istanbul talks, which would be Minsk II frozen borders, is not something that the US will push in Riyadh. They effectively want Ukraine to accept current borders or maybe Russia's annexed regions borders. That needs to be clarified.
 
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Tidewater

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Negotiation and diplomacy are only productive (and logical) when the parties involved are trustworthy.

Putin has shown over and over that he thinks little of agreements, treaties, the interests of even his own people.

We didn't negotiate with Hitler.
That's true. At the Casablanca Conference (Jan 1943), the Allies declared unconditional surrender of the Axis powers as the war's end.
If the West were to declare something similar in regards to Russia, we are going to need to do a hell of a lot more of everything: money, troops (and that will mean more American, and French and British, and German troops ...), more weapons, etc. Clausewitz was very clear that increased ends require increased means.

And, in the end, the Allies agreed to accept the Japanese emperor staying on his throne, even if in a more symbolic role.
 
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UAH

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Bazza, I so wish that I could believe that Trump was doing his best to end this war in as equitable manner as possible and that he has no ulterior motives, but every action he's taken so far has been to the detriment of Ukraine. If he wants to end this war and find a compromise that's acceptable to both sides, why no real pressure on Putin? Russia started this war and could end it today. Trump's moves give the appearance of his being on Putin's side (and that America is in it for some profit).
Without some security guarantee why should Ukraine agree to give up Russian held territory and sign away the mineral rights within Ukraine? The fact is Putin has been quilty of attacking other countries militarily, practicing cyber warfare and killing Russian dissidents in Europe.

Is Trump really interested in a secure future for Ukraine? I think not.
 
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