Off Week Discussion/OL/Running Game/Play Calling

[gtgilbert]

The more I think about it. the more I think we have a hangover from the last couple of years. this isn't about he who won't be named, rather it's more about an offense that's built around RPO. When running an RPO the offensive line almost never fires off the ball full tilt because they don't know if it's run or pass. They really just have to hold their ground in the immediate gap . that has to impact their ability to really just fire off the ball and move guys out of the way when it's a pure running play since they don't get as many reps in that type of situation. now that we've changed away from a purely RPO based offense I just don't think the offensive line has adjusted well to that yet, or maybe the scheme is calling for them to block like they're RPO's in case we need to pull that out of the hat again and it's just not working

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I agree Ty didn't have his best game, it wasn't due too experience at all, Ty's problem against SC was due too reallyyyy bad OLine play...

I thought we simply looked tired as a team from a brutal schedule & this was a gut punch too give us a 2nd wind we needed to finish out the season..

The DBs mugging our WRs with no PI flags was a factor too.

These guys rep and rep and rep together on routes to get timing down.

Ty was having to try and adjust to it while also being under way too much pressure.

It was a tough ask.

He had a pretty good 1st half statistically but the 2nd half the protection was worse and the non called PI was worse.

He did make some errant throws but I still think he had a good game considering the context.

He made the game tying TD and 2Point conv in the clutch too.

He’s got immense pressure on him too with no running game to help him out.

We’re throwing when they know we’re throwing and grabbing our WRs and batting down screens.

Our Playcalling needs to be better.

OL is what it is and it’s sub optimal.

 

[BamaInBham]

2012 was pretty nasty. especially in the two championship games

It may not have been the OL’s fault, I know on some plays there were blitzers”, but Lacy and Yeldon did a a fabulous job dodging ND players in the backfield time after time. I do know that after the game multiple ND players that I heard, never mentioned the OL but expressed their amazement at and admiration for EL & TJY and their abilities in the face of frequent tacklers in their face whey got the ball. I would assume the best RB coach of all time, Burton Burns, also made a difference.

We have none of that now. As runners, the RBs have only avg or below speed, quickness and vision. Hill is big, strong and very athletic but otherwise is similar to the others. But they have enough talent to be adequate if the OL was good at run blocking. It appears that Dear is an exception to the aforementioned limitations but he apparently is not ready in the non-running requirements (pass protection, receiving, etc.) of the position.

A side note: I do not know of a single fan base that is happy with their OL. Not saying that some are not better than others, especially at run blocking. IMO, the physical aspect of football has been so deemphasized with the young that it is affecting football at all levels. Not complaining, just an observation.

 

[arthurdawg]

It may not have been the OL’s fault, I know on some plays there were blitzers”, but Lacy and Yeldon did a a fabulous job dodging ND players in the backfield time after time. I do know that after the game multiple ND players that I heard, never mentioned the OL but expressed their amazement at and admiration for EL & TJY and their abilities in the face of frequent tacklers in their face whey got the ball. I would assume the best RB coach of all time, Burton Burns, also made a difference.

We have none of that now. As runners, the RBs have only avg or below speed, quickness and vision. Hill is big, strong and very athletic but otherwise is similar to the others. But they have enough talent to be adequate if the OL was good at run blocking. It appears that Dear is an exception to the aforementioned limitations but he apparently is not ready in the non-running requirements (pass protection, receiving, etc.) of the position.

A side note: I do not know of a single fan base that is happy with their OL. Not saying that some are not better than others, especially at run blocking. IMO, the physical aspect of football has been so deemphasized with the young that it is affecting football at all levels. Not complaining, just an observation.

Agreed... The ability to make that first man miss was a staple and trademark of Saban backs from Coffee up to Najee. We really miss that after 2020.

 

[BamaMoon]

I agree Ty didn't have his best game, it wasn't due too experience at all, Ty's problem against SC was due too reallyyyy bad OLine play...

I thought we simply looked tired as a team from a brutal schedule & this was a gut punch too give us a 2nd wind we needed to finish out the season..

Agree it wasn't due to "inexperience," which would have probably shown up sooner rather than now.

But I did watch the game again yesterday and Ty was definitely off even on plays when he had plenty of time.

Case in point was the GB crossing route (which I think was a 4th down) when he had 7-10 yards on the DB and Ty inexplicably overthrew him. I watched the play a couple of times and Ty had NO PRESSURE on that pass play. This was no doubt the biggest play we missed that would have totally blown the game wide open because GB would have scored an easy TD.

Someone mentioned Ty's been dealing with some injuries, so maybe that was it. But, as a former basketball player whose game was built on shooting 3s, I know for a fact there are simply "off days" that drive you nuts! Maybe it was that.

But to his credit, that 4th quarter drive for the tie was almost perfect!!!

 

[BamaMoon]

The DBs mugging our WRs with no PI flags was a factor too.

These guys rep and rep and rep together on routes to get timing down.

Ty was having to try and adjust to it while also being under way too much pressure.

It was a tough ask.

He had a pretty good 1st half statistically but the 2nd half the protection was worse and the non called PI was worse.

He did make some errant throws but I still think he had a good game considering the context.

He made the game tying TD and 2Point conv in the clutch too.

He’s got immense pressure on him too with no running game to help him out.

We’re throwing when they know we’re throwing and grabbing our WRs and batting down screens.

Our Playcalling needs to be better.

OL is what it is and it’s sub optimal.

On BOLDED: we also were missing Brooks the whole game and Horton in the 2nd half. As you mention, QBs and WRs prep and learn timing so when Rico Scott is there instead of Brooks (who is a more dynamic receiver) it makes a big difference on the timing of routes. That's a huge factor in the passing game!

It may not have been the OL’s fault, I know on some plays there were blitzers”, but Lacy and Yeldon did a a fabulous job dodging ND players in the backfield time after time. I do know that after the game multiple ND players that I heard, never mentioned the OL but expressed their amazement at and admiration for EL & TJY and their abilities in the face of frequent tacklers in their face whey got the ball. I would assume the best RB coach of all time, Burton Burns, also made a difference.

We have none of that now. As runners, the RBs have only avg or below speed, quickness and vision. Hill is big, strong and very athletic but otherwise is similar to the others. But they have enough talent to be adequate if the OL was good at run blocking. It appears that Dear is an exception to the aforementioned limitations but he apparently is not ready in the non-running requirements (pass protection, receiving, etc.) of the position.

A side note: I do not know of a single fan base that is happy with their OL. Not saying that some are not better than others, especially at run blocking. IMO, the physical aspect of football has been so deemphasized with the young that it is affecting football at all levels. Not complaining, just an observation.

Yeldon's greatest talent was dancing through traffic. He made so many great plays by breaking an initial tackle.

I'm not piling on Jam, but almost every time he touches the ball, there's a split second of hesitation before he accelerates. I don't know if it's left-over apprehension concerning his injury OR a lack of innate vision, but he just seems slow hitting holes and creases.

 

[BamaMoon]

The more I think about it. the more I think we have a hangover from the last couple of years. this isn't about he who won't be named, rather it's more about an offense that's built around RPO. When running an RPO the offensive line almost never fires off the ball full tilt because they don't know if it's run or pass. They really just have to hold their ground in the immediate gap . that has to impact their ability to really just fire off the ball and move guys out of the way when it's a pure running play since they don't get as many reps in that type of situation. now that we've changed away from a purely RPO based offense I just don't think the offensive line has adjusted well to that yet, or maybe the scheme is calling for them to block like they're RPO's in case we need to pull that out of the hat again and it's just not working

You may be "on" to something. I know why the RPO became a part of the game, but in a way, it's crazy to think of the ways it exposes QBs and causes the indecision you describe in the OL. Plus, with the way most modern DLs are packed with more explosive pass rushers than ever before, it doesn't make as much sense to have the pause of the "mesh point" in the RPO for those rushers to just tee off on RBs and QBs.

 

[Power Eye]

Didn't know where to put this post, but since it's the off week, maybe just a new discussion of several things.

First off, we should be excited we are 7-1 going into the home stretch. Who would have thought that after week one? Now we have an off week to get rested and clean some things up. Great job by all: coaches and players!

I think Ty finally had an off game and we should have expected it. I said at the beginning of the season he might have a "slump" at some point due to his limited starting experience. I hope it was limited to this game. He missed at least 3 GB tagetted passes that with better acccuracy would have been 3 possible TD plays. He was just slightly off, but it may have been he was hurried because of the pass rush of the Cocks. I think TS will probably be much better against LSU.

Now, to the run game and our OL issues. I've reached the conclusion we've got to "dance with who brought us." I don't know if this OL can ever get too much better at run blocking. And, if I have one complaint about RG's play calling, it is that he puts us in some difficult spots in tight games just "trying" to run when it seems like we aren't going to be able. This gets us in alot of 2nd and long and 3rd and long and behind the chains. I think there were 3 straight drives against USCe in the second half where we tried to run on first down and got behind the chains. In a one score game like this game seemed to be the whole time, IMO, we need to forget the run game (especially the inside run game) and just do what we do best, which is letting Ty work with our WRs and running backs who are good receivers. Sprinkle in the occasional run on 2nd and short but let Ty work!!!

This might not be a popular opinion, but I don't think the run game problems are all on the OL. I think Jam is just slow to hit the hole (maybe because of injury still?) but that's what it looks like. D. Hill does a better job IMO.

What else y'all got?

The OL definitely concerns me, but it is what it is and I don't see it improving significantly. You make a good point about Jam. He just looks unsure. On the long run that got called back for holding, it looked like he didn't know what to do once he got in the open field. He looked like a QB just trying to avoid a hit.

Regarding Simpson, I worry that his inaccuracy on long throws is going to really hurt us at some point. He is great at the intermediate and underneath throws, but SC was able to take a lot of that away and dare him to throw deep. The plays were there, but the throws weren't.

 

[STONECOLDSABAN]

The OL definitely concerns me, but it is what it is and I don't see it improving significantly. You make a good point about Jam. He just looks unsure. On the long run that got called back for holding, it looked like he didn't know what to do once he got in the open field. He looked like a QB just trying to avoid a hit.

Regarding Simpson, I worry that his inaccuracy on long throws is going to really hurt us at some point. He is great at the intermediate and underneath throws, but SC was able to take a lot of that away and dare him to throw deep. The plays were there, but the throws weren't.

My understanding is he has not been 100 percent since the Missouri game. I think the week off will help a lot. and I could be wrong but I feel like some of those passes he had deep were off by just an inch. That’s still enough to keep the defense honest.

 

[BamaMoon]

Yes, the deep throws have been too few and far between. It's a mystery how great his timing and accuracy is on deep crossings and seam patterns but then when he throws deep, it disappears. And it's not always one type of miss but sometimes he throws too long and other times it's too short.

The OL definitely concerns me, but it is what it is and I don't see it improving significantly. You make a good point about Jam. He just looks unsure. On the long run that got called back for holding, it looked like he didn't know what to do once he got in the open field. He looked like a QB just trying to avoid a hit.

Regarding Simpson, I worry that his inaccuracy on long throws is going to really hurt us at some point. He is great at the intermediate and underneath throws, but SC was able to take a lot of that away and dare him to throw deep. The plays were there, but the throws weren't.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

Think I saw that Formby allowed the most pressures again? Why does he still get so many snaps? Is he an elite run blocker or something?

 

[Coach D]

Don’t over analyze this past game. End of brutal stretch and playing away and injuries.

No the o line doesn’t have a hangover from previous years RPO that’s not how it works. It has suffered from bad coaching and in certain players cases lack of discipline as far as shape. I do still question the S&C for both lines.

RBs let’s get this out of the way, no one knows if Dear is great or not. He made a couple good runs against a very tired bad team stop the hype lol The other RBs as far as Jam, Riley and Young just almost run blindly into the o line backs and miss holes and little jump cut ability for some reason. Hill seems better vision wise but still need more to determine. Bad o line doesn’t help so combine bad vision and bad run blocking.

O line just doesn’t move anyone, center is great at pass blocking and stalemate with a DT but that doesn’t help with running. Everyone sees what the others do.

All that said, this season is a heck of a lot more fun and this team is actually likable vs last year!

 

[bamaslammer]

Think I saw that Formby allowed the most pressures again? Why does he still get so many snaps? Is he an elite run blocker or something?

If Carroll were significantly better you wouldn't see Formby. Currently these two are fighting it out for that spot and hopefully we are getting more from both because of the fight. OL are probably the hardest players to recruit and develop. Even harder than QB. I'm not convinced we have the right OL coach either. I'm not convinced we don't have a good one, I'd say the jury is still out on him.

 

[gtgilbert]

Think I saw that Formby allowed the most pressures again? Why does he still get so many snaps? Is he an elite run blocker or something?

I saw the PFF stats and while I wouldn't disagree that formby probably allowed four pressure. there's absolutely no way i could see that the LT allowed zero pressures. he was giving ground the entire game

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

If Carroll were significantly better you wouldn't see Formby. Currently these two are fighting it out for that spot and hopefully we are getting more from both because of the fight. OL are probably the hardest players to recruit and develop. Even harder than QB. I'm not convinced we have the right OL coach either. I'm not convinced we don't have a good one, I'd say the jury is still out on him.

Obviously that's what the coaches think. I'm more asking if anyone has anything concrete as to why. I missed a good chunk of this last game but every other game I've seen it seems like Fromby is struggling in pass pro

 

[Bamabuzzard]

The more I think about it. the more I think we have a hangover from the last couple of years. this isn't about he who won't be named, rather it's more about an offense that's built around RPO. When running an RPO the offensive line almost never fires off the ball full tilt because they don't know if it's run or pass. They really just have to hold their ground in the immediate gap . that has to impact their ability to really just fire off the ball and move guys out of the way when it's a pure running play since they don't get as many reps in that type of situation. now that we've changed away from a purely RPO based offense I just don't think the offensive line has adjusted well to that yet, or maybe the scheme is calling for them to block like they're RPO's in case we need to pull that out of the hat again and it's just not working

You can watch on film that they don't engage, then drive. They do more absorbing the defensive linemen's rush and trying to turn them or hold them at bay. We simply do not move anyone off the LOS.

 

[arthurdawg]

There was another post here where they detailed Proctor getting abused... Their DE just run around him easily and clocked Ty on one of the plays.

Neither side is getting it done. I hope we can self scout and at least correct the smaller things over the break. But yes, we have too much talent to be this bad. We will have to break in a new center next year, but we should have beef there.

Even with that... Dewberry is 330 and looks like pork chop. He don't move no one no way though.

 

[TideMan09]

Agree it wasn't due to "inexperience," which would have probably shown up sooner rather than now.

But I did watch the game again yesterday and Ty was definitely off even on plays when he had plenty of time.

Case in point was the GB crossing route (which I think was a 4th down) when he had 7-10 yards on the DB and Ty inexplicably overthrew him. I watched the play a couple of times and Ty had NO PRESSURE on that pass play. This was no doubt the biggest play we missed that would have totally blown the game wide open because GB would have scored an easy TD.

Someone mentioned Ty's been dealing with some injuries, so maybe that was it. But, as a former basketball player whose game was built on shooting 3s, I know for a fact there are simply "off days" that drive you nuts! Maybe it was that.

But to his credit, that 4th quarter drive for the tie was almost perfect!!!

Yup..To Carolina's credit they got to Ty early & often ringing his bell all game long..

The pressure was getting to Ty & threw his game off understandably, Ty to his credit put together a touchdown drive, when we needed him the most like all great QB's do..

 

[RammerJammer14]

The OL definitely concerns me, but it is what it is and I don't see it improving significantly. You make a good point about Jam. He just looks unsure. On the long run that got called back for holding, it looked like he didn't know what to do once he got in the open field. He looked like a QB just trying to avoid a hit.

Regarding Simpson, I worry that his inaccuracy on long throws is going to really hurt us at some point. He is great at the intermediate and underneath throws, but SC was able to take a lot of that away and dare him to throw deep. The plays were there, but the throws weren't.

Looking at a couple film reviews of the game yesterday, some of Ty’s deep passes weren’t as off as they seemed in the moment. One pass to Bernard was pretty blatant uncalled DPI. Another pass to Bernard all the way at the goal line was actually thrown great but Bernard mistimed it, jumped when he should have just taken another step, and jumped early at that. Williams dropped another impressive 4th down pass that hit him in the hands. Another deep pass to Williams, Williams was being held all the way down the sideline- uncalled. He also had another great deep ball that would have been a TD but the SC DB made an amazing leap from behind and knocked it away with his fingertips.

Ty’s two biggest errors in my mind were (1) his deep EZ pass on I think a 3rd down when the WR did not have separation AND had a safety over the top (SC dropped the pick), and there was a wide wide open TE about 15yds down the field he could have easily hit. And (2) His sail pass to Bernard in the second half. He also had ~2 deep balls that were thrown too far, which seems to be his most common problem in hitting those.

Some of his issues Saturday were a result of being forced off his spot by the pass rush before even completing his drop- the 5 step drop went away pretty quickly in the game.

Anyways, he can definitely improve his deep ball, but a chunk of it was just bad luck and inches of difference.

 

[BamaMoon]

Looking at a couple film reviews of the game yesterday, some of Ty’s deep passes weren’t as off as they seemed in the moment. One pass to Bernard was pretty blatant uncalled DPI. Another pass to Bernard all the way at the goal line was actually thrown great but Bernard mistimed it, jumped when he should have just taken another step, and jumped early at that. Williams dropped another impressive 4th down pass that hit him in the hands. Another deep pass to Williams, Williams was being held all the way down the sideline- uncalled. He also had another great deep ball that would have been a TD but the SC DB made an amazing leap from behind and knocked it away with his fingertips.

Ty’s two biggest errors in my mind were (1) his deep EZ pass on I think a 3rd down when the WR did not have separation AND had a safety over the top (SC dropped the pick), and there was a wide wide open TE about 15yds down the field he could have easily hit. And (2) His sail pass to Bernard in the second half. He also had ~2 deep balls that were thrown too far, which seems to be his most common problem in hitting those.

Some of his issues Saturday were a result of being forced off his spot by the pass rush before even completing his drop- the 5 step drop went away pretty quickly in the game.

Anyways, he can definitely improve his deep ball, but a chunk of it was just bad luck and inches of difference.

On the one 4th down pass the RW dropped, the ball was tipped coming out of Ty's hand it it fluttered badly. In RWs defense, tipped balls are hard to judge especially when you have to break off the route you are already running.

Agreed Tys throw into double coverage was a real bad throw he got lucky was not INTed.

And on the drive right before the half, I thought he pushed a deep ball that should had been an underneath throw to at least set us up for a FG try before the time expired. We were around midfield with about 1 minute and didn't take advantage of putting any points on the board. Another "small thing" that adds up with all these other misses.