Issues in Education

[Bamabuzzard]

Quite honestly I don’t ever believe parents like that. Most actually concerned parents don’t go as public with it. Usually there is an ulterior motive behind it.

This case should be very easy to prove or disprove Have the parents just produce the certificate. If the parents can produce the certificate, then I think at that point questions need to be asked to the teacher by the principal. If the teacher denies giving the kid the certificate, then ask the kids in the class.

 

[81usaf92]

This case should be very easy to prove or disprove Have the parents just produce the certificate. If the parents can produce the certificate, then I think at that point questions need to be asked to the teacher by the principal. If the teacher denies giving the kid the certificate, then ask the kids in the class.

I looked it up. It was a 23 case in which the State of Florida got involved in and there was some merit to it.

But my larger point is that going to Board Meetings to complain about teachers and administrators is largely more ineffective than just going to the principal or someone in central office. Most of the time you won’t even be allowed to talk and other times you’ll just be looked as someone preventing the board members from getting home.

But even if you had said certificate… the obvious question would be “how do we know that you didn’t print that out”. Like I stated earlier I have had parents totally make up stuff to try to make their complaint seem more serious. There are more cases like that than what many believe. Also asking the kids is a non starter to begin with in these cases. That’s why formal investigations are necessary otherwise good teachers would be constantly kneeling to the popular rich girl in school.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

My response to this old story is that if the allegations are true, the teacher should be fired.

Also, those who use incidents like this to smear the entire public education system are beneath contempt. One has the feeling that they would never do the same to the entire Christian community for pedophilia or all police officers for brutality.

If only human beings were wired this way, this world would be a better place. But this just "ain't" how we operate. Depending on our biases toward or against groups, organizations, or people, will depend on how much grace, benefit of the doubt or lack there of we give out. But it's normally very, very inconsistent regardless.

 

[alabama mike1]

This requires a ton of paperwork. Typically, an administrator will know which student(s) need to be in an alternative setup, and the only way they can collect the necessary paperwork to justify the move is to build a case file on misbehavior in the general education setting. I'm sure it's related to passing the burden of proof in a federal lawsuit if one were to bring one, but it definitely takes away from students who do want to learn in the meantime.

A lot of federal caselaw up to this point have centered on issues of gaining students more equal access in the classroom. I wonder if there will be new caselaw on cases where a student's constant misbehavior in the classroom takes away their right to equal access to a quality education. It'd be a discussion on where one's rights end and another begins.

It does require documentation of all disciplinary actions, phone calls to the parent/guardian and what action(s) the classroom teacher has tried. We use a system called Swiss. Every teacher that has a specific child has access to that particular student. Of course, I have accetto everyone.

I am allowed to place a student into an alternative school as I deem necessary. The one thing that all administrators have to be careful of are the students who are identified in ANY special education category. Just because they leave the regular school setting does not excuse the fact that those students still receive special education services by an intervention/special education teacher. That is federal law that must be followed.

 

[arthurdawg]

I looked it up. It was a 23 case in which the State of Florida got involved in and there was some merit to it.

But my larger point is that going to Board Meetings to complain about teachers and administrators is largely more ineffective than just going to the principal or someone in central office. Most of the time you won’t even be allowed to talk and other times you’ll just be looked as someone preventing the board members from getting home.

But even if you had said certificate… the obvious question would be “how do we know that you didn’t print that out”. Like I stated earlier I have had parents totally make up stuff to try to make their complaint seem more serious. There are more cases like that than what many believe. Also asking the kids is a non starter to begin with in these cases. That’s why formal investigations are necessary otherwise good teachers would be constantly kneeling to the popular rich girl in school.

Yes... Too many of these cases are made up by the crazy parents and simply not true.

But the outrage machine on the cancer known as social media will play them as true until disproven without a mention or recantation once they are (usually) found to be false.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I looked it up. It was a 23 case in which the State of Florida got involved in and there was some merit to it.

But my larger point is that going to Board Meetings to complain about teachers and administrators is largely more ineffective than just going to the principal or someone in central office. Most of the time you won’t even be allowed to talk and other times you’ll just be looked as someone preventing the board members from getting home.

But even if you had said certificate… the obvious question would be “how do we know that you didn’t print that out”. Like I stated earlier I have had parents totally make up stuff to try to make their complaint seem more serious. There are more cases like that than what many believe. Also asking the kids is a non starter to begin with in these cases. That’s why formal investigations are necessary otherwise good teachers would be constantly kneeling to the popular rich girl in school.

That's basically what I was suggesting. Investigate and to investigate it you have to ask questions, even if it means asking the kids. Require people to give their answers, gather all the evidence necessary and make a decision. This case didn't seem to have a lot of moving parts, so the investigation shouldn't have taken long.

 

[crimsonaudio]

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

View attachment 56561

There was a big scandal about this specific school a few years ago, This sounds related. They were inflating grades and enrolment IIRC.

 

[JDCrimson]

Its unacceptable for sure but there is probably gross negligence on the part of the parents for letting it get to this point. Just think of how many report cards they didnt look at before you even get to a 0.13 GPA.

 

[crimsonaudio]

 

[81usaf92]

That's basically what I was suggesting. Investigate and to investigate it you have to ask questions, even if it means asking the kids. Require people to give their answers, gather all the evidence necessary and make a decision. This case didn't seem to have a lot of moving parts, so the investigation shouldn't have taken long.

I thought about this post after reading a facebook thread about a teacher at my former school and reflecting on the hell of a year at my current one. The problem becomes clear… There are 4 pillars of education and they are teachers, students, parents, and administrators. When they all equally carry the weight then the system works when only school officials carry that weight (teachers and administrators) then the school atleast functions under coherent standards but apathy is rampant. But if only teachers and students are expected to carry it like most schools then you better believe you are going to have a revolving door of teachers.

This new generation of kids are being taught that they are the best and they can challenge adults about everything. They are smart enough to turn classes against certain teachers if they know they have parents who enable their behavior and administrators that are too scared to deal with angry mammas. I’ve sat through tons of IEP meetings where hobbies sections are “play video games and communicating with friends on instagram” and life goals are “play in the nba and nfl”. These aren’t elementary school kids I’m talking about either. From a sports perspective we went 0-10 yet we had kids throwing pads into the stands, quitting mid game because a coach corrects them, and strutting about making a hit when we are down by 35 points. We also have kids get “injured” every time they fumble the ball. The problem is that we have kids being told that they are perfect and they can’t fail. Yet everytime something negative happens it’s someone else’s fault or the system or person is racist. Yet in my district they have an unlimited amount of time to make up assignments and redo tests they score under 70. But the true horror is that when they graduate high school the job force is still the same as it has been since 1945… cold, uncaring, and expects results.

So when I see something said by a teacher by parents and kids I’m always a bit skeptical. It’s because we have almost fully given control to parents and kids. We have a generation of students who don’t understand the value of failure and their only response is to challenge it until they are satisfied.

Full disclosure some teachers are bullies and hate kids. But when you have killed the passion in many of your great ones to the point of an early retirement then you are just left with hiring warm bodies who will either quit in 2 years, go rogue, or run the class like a military camp and not care about the results.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

This past Sunday our pastor (in the course of his sermon) gave an alarming statistic that relates to our educational model in this country. He has an education degree and before he became a pastor got his masters in education and taught for a little while before going to seminary. He said something in his sermon this past Sunday that made me think of this thread.

Apparently, when he was going through his master's program, he learned the following: Most people (both children and adults he specified) retain only 10% of a subject through lecture, 50% through doing and 90% when teaching it. Yet, the majority of our educational system is built around lecture learning. Someone make that make sense to me. ????

 

[arthurdawg]

This past Sunday our pastor (in the course of his sermon) gave an alarming statistic that relates to our educational model in this country. He has an education degree and before he became a pastor got his masters in education and taught for a little while before going to seminary. He said something in his sermon this past Sunday that made me think of this thread.

Apparently, when he was going through his master's program, he learned the following: Most people (both children and adults he specified) retain only 10% of a subject through lecture, 50% through doing and 90% when teaching it. Yet, the majority of our educational system is built around lecture learning. Someone make that make sense to me. ????

Just learning to take notes and then sitting down with an outline and annotating and reading further makes a huge difference for me. Listening to a lecture full of power points does not stick.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

This past Sunday our pastor (in the course of his sermon) gave an alarming statistic that relates to our educational model in this country. He has an education degree and before he became a pastor got his masters in education and taught for a little while before going to seminary. He said something in his sermon this past Sunday that made me think of this thread.

Apparently, when he was going through his master's program, he learned the following: Most people (both children and adults he specified) retain only 10% of a subject through lecture, 50% through doing and 90% when teaching it. Yet, the majority of our educational system is built around lecture learning. Someone make that make sense to me. ????

My gut tells me there is almost no way those numbers are accurate. They are way to clean and glaring. BUT I bet what they imply is accurate. It's definitely true that lectures are far from adequate by themselves.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

My gut tells me there is almost no way those numbers are accurate. They are way to clean and glaring. BUT I bet what they imply is accurate. It's definitely true that lectures are far from adequate by themselves.

Which is the most important point. We can squable over literal %'s, when honestly, they probably aren't off far enough to bother with the argument.

 

[75thru79]

Which is the most important point. We can squable over literal %'s, when honestly, they probably aren't off far enough to bother with the argument.

I feel like those percentages are pretty accurate. I graduated with an Accounting degree from UA in 1979, with good enough grades to land a job with one of the "Big Eight" accounting firms, and I had literally no knowledge of accounting other than what we were lectured on and tested. I couldn't even balance books because I had never done any bookkeeping. Granted, accounting is not bookkeeping but you have to know how to do it to be an accountant. I forgot most of the lecture knowledge I learned at UA and basically taught myself how to be an accountant at work. I think most of the people I started with were in the same boat.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I feel like those percentages are pretty accurate. I graduated with an Accounting degree from UA in 1979, with good enough grades to land a job with one of the "Big Eight" accounting firms, and I had literally no knowledge of accounting other than what we were lectured on and tested. I couldn't even balance books because I had never done any bookkeeping. Granted, accounting is not bookkeeping but you have to know how to do it to be an accountant. I forgot most of the lecture knowledge I learned at UA and basically taught myself how to be an accountant at work. I think most of the people I started with were in the same boat.

I learned about accounting AFTER I got out of college than I ever did in the classroom. So I basically paid the college to issue me a piece of paper so that I could get a firm to hire to teach me accounting.

 

[81usaf92]

This past Sunday our pastor (in the course of his sermon) gave an alarming statistic that relates to our educational model in this country. He has an education degree and before he became a pastor got his masters in education and taught for a little while before going to seminary. He said something in his sermon this past Sunday that made me think of this thread.

Apparently, when he was going through his master's program, he learned the following: Most people (both children and adults he specified) retain only 10% of a subject through lecture, 50% through doing and 90% when teaching it. Yet, the majority of our educational system is built around lecture learning. Someone make that make sense to me. ????

But here is the thing… none of that addresses kids and families completely adverse towards education and are forced into doing by penalty of law. Manipulation through constructive strategies only goes so far. Sometimes a college style lecture is the only thing to keep order in a classroom full of children who see no value to learning other than preventing others to learn.

I believe in constructive ideas but at the same time each class is a different beast in itself and has to be treated that way. Especially when you have lacking support administratively and with parents. Which is the vast majority of public schools in poor counties. So its just not practical even though it is great in theory

 

[arthurdawg]

I learned about accounting AFTER I got out of college than I ever did in the classroom. So I basically paid the college to issue me a piece of paper so that I could get a firm to hire to teach me accounting.

I am not an expert in this field other than having been 'learned' a bunch over the years... But I feel that our educational system is an antiquated relic of small town farming communities. It seems like we could do much better.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I am not an expert in this field other than having been 'learned' a bunch over the years... But I feel that our educational system is an antiquated relic of small town farming communities. It seems like we could do much better.

Funny, I think we’ve generally become too ’industrialized’ in our education format, as if one size fits all. If anything, I think we need to back to the more localized system you’re referring to, but with some national standards in place.