2017 NFL Draft Thread (April 27-29)

[REBELZED]

Tlay Cravis makes me feel sociopathic because at times I feel like I'd laugh if something terrible happened to him. He's a sorry piece of trash human being.

These last couple of days he has really shown his stripes. I don't know how a "public figure" can say/do the things he does and not face some sort of legal repercussions. And how in the world is he still employed by a news network (Fox) after saying/doing those thing?

It's one thing to stir up controversial sports takes, but he personally attacks and threatens people on Twitter. He is a coward hiding behind an online persona. I hope one day that it all catches up to him somehow.

 

[B1GTide]

Phil Savage responds to Colin Cowherd's criticism of Bama players as banged up and used:

https://soundcloud.com/user-183840129/phil-savage-on-cowherds-criticism-of-bama-players-5117

Colin's comments about injuries are stupid, but the "topped out" comments might not be. Alabama players receive NFL coaching at most positions while at Alabama. They also get NFL type game preparation (game planning) at Alabama. So it is fair to believe that players moving from Alabama to the NFL might already have reached their potential, or something close to their potential. A player coming from most other schools would not be as likely to have already achieved their potential.

To follow the example offered in the audio linked, it would be fair to say that Alabama's DBs have already come close to their potential, especially those with a few years as a starter. Saban is a top tier NFL DB coach - as good as it gets anywhere in the NFL. Sure, these players will get a lot more time with their coaches in the NFL, but they will already be pretty much what they will become the day that they arrive. So, don't draft an Alabama DB unless you already like what you see, because that player isn't likely to get much better under your coaching than he did with Saban.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

Colin's comments about injuries are stupid, but the "topped out" comments might not be. Alabama players receive NFL coaching at most positions while at Alabama. They also get NFL type game preparation (game planning) at Alabama. So it is fair to believe that players moving from Alabama to the NFL might already have reached their potential, or something close to their potential. A player coming from most other schools would not be as likely to have already achieved their potential.

To follow the example offered in the audio linked, it would be fair to say that Alabama's DBs have already come close to their potential, especially those with a few years as a starter. Saban is a top tier NFL DB coach - as good as it gets anywhere in the NFL. Sure, these players will get a lot more time with their coaches in the NFL, but they will already be pretty much what they will become the day that they arrive. So, don't draft an Alabama DB unless you already like what you see, because that player isn't likely to get much better under your coaching than he did with Saban.

So, I completely agree with the logic here and I think it is likely that most Alabama players on D are at the very least further along than players from most other schools(especially from a technique standpoint). But, I think this is probably overplayed for a few reasons.

1. Most guys coming out are barley 20 years old. This means that it is likely to possible that they are still developing mentally and maybe even physically in some cases. To me that means that it is very unlikely they are actually topped out.

2. Exactly 0% of players coming out have experience playing in the NFL. This means that they will need time to adjust to the speed/strength of the NFL and a full team of players that are considered elite in the college level. Once they go up against that competition both in games an in practice they learn things that no coach can really teach. Plus I would assume tougher competition pushes players even harder. If you don't understand where the peak is you don't really know what your limits are.

3. There are also a ton of differences between the NFL and College that change things. While Saban puts players in the best position to succeed in his program the NFL is made up of tons of different systems. This can push development in areas that weren't a focus in college. This can probably be the case even for players who make a move to a similar system. The NFL is just so different that I find it hard to believe players can be topped out.

4. Real life examples don't really support this. If you look at Bama players in the NFL today very few of them have just maintained the same level of play throughout their careers. HaHa has clearly improved since his rookie year and the same can be said for Collins after only one year. Dareus was on a upward track but the Bills and his off the field stuff have slowed/stopped that. Kareem Jackson and Dre Kirkpatrick have also clearly improved.


Edit: I should probably add to this that College is at most 5 years and often only 3 for some players. Not all of them have played football their entire life and it's just not possible to reach your ceiling in only 3-5 years.

 

[rgw]

Like I thought the photo and such from the UCLA DT was a bit over the top but I just filed it under "people deal with grief in different ways" in my mind and drove on like a normal human being.


But I guess I don't get how terrible people are...

 

[Padreruf]

Adam Scheffler (ESPN) said that teams were not scared off by Reuben Foster's character as much as by the people he let hang around him. These people bothered them...sounds like Trent Richardson all over again...I sure hope not.

 

[B1GTide]

4. Real life examples don't really support this. If you look at Bama players in the NFL today very few of them have just maintained the same level of play throughout their careers. HaHa has clearly improved since his rookie year and the same can be said for Collins after only one year. Dareus was on a upward track but the Bills and his off the field stuff have slowed/stopped that. Kareem Jackson and Dre Kirkpatrick have also clearly improved.

They became more comfortable in the system, which resulted in improved play. All of those guys were amazing players at Alabama with Pro Bowl potential when they were drafted. You have had a few guys play much better in the NFL than college. But the great NFL players were great Alabama players. The middling Alabama players, drafted in the lower rounds, don't make it any more than lower round draft picks from other schools.

 

[B1GTide]

Adam Scheffler (ESPN) said that teams were not scared off by Reuben Foster's character as much as by the people he let hang around him. These people bothered them...sounds like Trent Richardson all over again...I sure hope not.

The 49ers were willing to take him at #3 if Chicago picked Solomon.

 

[LA4Bama]

Adam Scheffler (ESPN) said that teams were not scared off by Reuben Foster's character as much as by the people he let hang around him. These people bothered them...sounds like Trent Richardson all over again...I sure hope not.

Sounds like Rolando, too.

Hopefully San Francisco is far enough away Reuben gets free from the hangers-on.

 

[rgw]

And the thing is you can tell a kid all about what he needs to do to protect himself from hanger-ons but for some it will go in one ear and out the other. It isn't like T-Rich had been hearing about the horror stories since college or anything! I know Saban has people come in and talk about that stuff since it is topical for a fair number of his guys.

 

[B1GTide]

One of the players (cannot remember who) had to promise NFL execs that he would walk away from his former home town associates. Resoundingly the impression was that he was telling the truth when he swore to do so. NFL execs swore that they would not draft him without so promising.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

The 49ers were willing to take him at #3 if Chicago picked Solomon.

Redskins would have taken him or OJ if Allen hadn't been there as well. So at least 2 teams thought everyone else was crazy

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

And the thing is you can tell a kid all about what he needs to do to protect himself from hanger-ons but for some it will go in one ear and out the other. It isn't like T-Rich had been hearing about the horror stories since college or anything! I know Saban has people come in and talk about that stuff since it is topical for a fair number of his guys.

Yea, but to me this just means there needs to be a better NFL program in place. Don't just tell them about it but have programs in place that really teaches them. I think the NFL really fails on off the field training for players.

One of the players (cannot remember who) had to promise NFL execs that he would walk away from his former home town associates. Resoundingly the impression was that he was telling the truth when he swore to do so. NFL execs swore that they would not draft him without so promising.

Yea, there have been a few stories like this throughout the years. The NFL really cares about who you hang around. There were similar questions about Dalvin Cook too.

 

[rgw]

It begs the question just how far can or should an employer go with advising their employees. Nobody wants their employer telling them they can't put their mom in a house in a good neighborhood when they've just earned life-changing money. I'm sure that is how it would sound when they start advising players to not try to drastically change the lifestyle of themselves, family, and/or friends. Some of these kids put their mom up in a decent upper-middle class neighborhood and do not slippery slope all the way down the drain into emotional and financial ruin that affects their career. Some can't. The franchises would be creating a hostile relationship from the outset by trying to press players on how they spend their money. Their only respite is to avoid the players with the biggest warning signs and just let them figure out on their own. From their perspective, it is better to take a few busts than sow hostility between management and the "boom" franchise player.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

It begs the question just how far can or should an employer go with advising their employees. Nobody wants their employer telling them they can't put their mom in a house in a good neighborhood when they've just earned life-changing money. I'm sure that is how it would sound when they start advising players to not try to drastically change the lifestyle of themselves, family, and/or friends. Some of these kids put their mom up in a decent upper-middle class neighborhood and do not slippery slope all the way down the drain into emotional and financial ruin that affects their career. Some can't. The franchises would be creating a hostile relationship from the outset by trying to press players on how they spend their money. Their only respite is to avoid the players with the biggest warning signs and just let them figure out on their own. From their perspective, it is better to take a few busts than sow hostility between management and the "boom" franchise player.

Well, this is why I think the NFL needs a program. When you are teaching anyone anything you don't just tell them what to do like a parent. That is not a very effective way of teaching. I don't know enough to suggest what this program might entail but clearly what they are doing now isn't working.

 

[RTR91]

Well, this is why I think the NFL needs a program. When you are teaching anyone anything you don't just tell them what to do like a parent. That is not a very effective way of teaching. I don't know enough to suggest what this program might entail but clearly what they are doing now isn't working.

They have the rookie symposium where former players talk to the new guys about the challenges ahead of them.

 

[B1GTide]

They have the rookie symposium where former players talk to the new guys about the challenges ahead of them.

I know a few NFL position coaches - they have a great program for rookies. It really comes down to the players.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

They have the rookie symposium where former players talk to the new guys about the challenges ahead of them.

yea but not all the advice they get there is great...

But more importantly what do they do besides the symposium. A one time symposium isn't going to change much.

I know a few NFL position coaches - they have a great program for rookies. It really comes down to the players.

Do you know what it entails besides the symposium? I agree it comes down the individual but the individual is less likely to succeed with insufficient support. I guess I would be curious to see how exactly they help out rookies and what they do after their rookie years if anything.

 

[CrimsonProf]

Even though these are young adults who have spent a few years in college, I don't think there's any way to understate the emotional dimension of poverty. A particularly chaotic life can lead to severe emotional attachments to friends and family who "stood by you" in hard times. Meghan McArdle of Bloomberg has done a lot of work on this notion of reciprocal altruism. It's really fascinating stuff, and it explains why players - Ro and Trent come to mind - often have issues of this nature. I fear Reuben's generous nature may be a negative in this regard.

Heck, it's part of why Andre Smith struggled, and he was a mostly middle-class kid. This is an interesting area of public policy where political lines get blurred real fast - Jack Kemp was interested in this sort of thing, for example. In any case, I think it is in the long-term interest of the league to help players work through this sort of stuff - just as Saban said about Reuben a while back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

Even though these are young adults who have spent a few years in college, I don't think there's any way to understate the emotional dimension of poverty. A particularly chaotic life can lead to severe emotional attachments to friends and family who "stood by you" in hard times. Meghan McArdle of Bloomberg has done a lot of work on this notion of reciprocal altruism. It's really fascinating stuff, and it explains why players - Ro and Trent come to mind - often have issues of this nature. I fear Reuben's generous nature may be a negative in this regard.

Heck, it's part of why Andre Smith struggled, and he was a mostly middle-class kid. This is an interesting area of public policy where political lines get blurred real fast - Jack Kemp was interested in this sort of thing, for example. In any case, I think it is in the long-term interest of the league to help players work through this sort of stuff - just as Saban said about Reuben a while back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. I wish I could like this post again.

 

[B1GTide]

Do you know what it entails besides the symposium? I agree it comes down the individual but the individual is less likely to succeed with insufficient support. I guess I would be curious to see how exactly they help out rookies and what they do after their rookie years if anything.

The teams hold "financial boot camps" and invite the rookies and their families to attend. It is usually a weekend function and you get wives and extended families in some of these things. They also have a whole bunch of resources for players to use, and a staff to contact, for free financial advice at any time. Some are internal NFL employees, but most are financial professionals in an outsourced program. I mean, I wish I had access to some of this stuff in my youth.