A Challenge to Climate Change Skeptics

[swoop10]

Nope, I am in complete agreement that government's appetite for power and control is insatiable, and that liberty we don't defend will be taken from us. It may have been humorous, but I do not for a second doubt that law enforcement would seek to use electricity usage statistics, if available, to investigate "suspicious" activity. They already monitor heat signatures, and have tried to link drug users with terrorism.

I thought you probably agreed with atleast some of what I was saying but I think that I am probably going a little farther than you with what I think will happen. I agree that they are already doing those things with drug control but I think once the gov has cap and trade and who knows what else they are going to pass with climate change, they will eventually come after the homeowner.

 

[bamacon]

But...but...Three Mile Island killed so many people and deformed babies for generations yet to come...

I thought that was what abortion was for according to Ruth Darth Bader Ginsberg. You know, getting rid of the undersirables.

 

[cbi1972]

I thought you probably agreed with atleast some of what I was saying but I think that I am probably going a little farther than you with what I think will happen. I agree that they are already doing those things with drug control but I think once the gov has cap and trade and who knows what else they are going to pass with climate change, they will eventually come after the homeowner.

California Seeks Thermostat Control

SAN FRANCISCO — The conceit in the 1960s show “The Outer Limits” was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.

Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.

Of course.

 

[bamacon]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXIvmJ8xenc"][ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXIvmJ8xenc]YouTube - Obama Says He Will Control Your Thermostat[/ame][/URL]

 

[bamacon]

Why is this posting two videos? What am I doing wrong? Grrrrr!

 

[swoop10]

YouTube - Obama Says He Will Control Your Thermostat[/URL]

Yes, I remember that speech and that is one of the reasons I have come to some of the conclusions that I have. I'm not real sure why others, mostly Obamatrons, don't see where he is headed.

 

[Bama4Ever831]

Yes, I remember that speech and that is one of the reasons I have come to some of the conclusions that I have. I'm not real sure why others, mostly Obamatrons, don't see where he is headed.

I doubt that will happen. If politicians did everything they said they would... :wink:

But seriously, I like my thermostat on pretty cool at night during the summer (70 or so). I make up for it in the winter as I turn my thermostat off for about 4 or 5 months when it is cold. If I am cold, I will just put on another layer or something.

As for nuclear power, it is fine with me as long as environmental standards and security are rigorously enforced.

 

[Tide1986]

I thought that was what abortion was for according to Ruth Darth Bader Ginsberg. You know, getting rid of the undersirables.

Hmmm...let's be sure to put plenty of nuclear power plants in Massachusetts and California then.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Bama4Ever831]

Hmmm...let's be sure to put plenty of nuclear power plants in Massachusetts and California then.
Posted via Mobile Device

Now that's funny!

 

[swoop10]

I doubt that will happen. If politicians did everything they said they would... :wink:

But seriously, I like my thermostat on pretty cool at night during the summer (70 or so). I make up for it in the winter as I turn my thermostat off for about 4 or 5 months when it is cold. If I am cold, I will just put on another layer or something.

As for nuclear power, it is fine with me as long as environmental standards and security are rigorously enforced.

I've been wondering where you've been hiding here, but here is where you and I disagee on this issue. You think that the gov is concerned about GW and I think they are using GW to gain power. You are right about politicians not doing everything they say but this is one thing P-BO would do in a heartbeat if he can. In the speech he said we couldn't keep riding around in our SUV's, well guess what the gov is doing it's best to get rid of the SUV. With the smart grid who knows what is next.

 

[Bama4Ever831]

I've been wondering where you've been hiding here, but here is where you and I disagee on this issue. You think that the gov is concerned about GW and I think they are using GW to gain power. You are right about politicians not doing everything they say but this is one thing P-BO would do in a heartbeat if he can. In the speech he said we couldn't keep riding around in our SUV's, well guess what the gov is doing it's best to get rid of the SUV. With the smart grid who knows what is next.

1. Why they would want to know who is using what appliance and for how long?

2. Why is it bad if they know this? You can use the data to save money on your energy bill.

The government does not have access to that data. Your power company like Alabama Power would be the only people with access to the data. You aren't worried about your cable company knowing exactly what pages you visit while surfing the web or what you are watching on TV? They would need a court order to access the data.


FAQ: What the smart grid means to you | Green Tech - CNET News

Smart Grid: Data Privacy and Security Issues for Advanced Metering Systems (Part 2) - Smart Grid News - Grid Modernization and the Smart Grid

If customers believe a utility is itself abusing personally identifiable data, or is generally enabling the use of personal information beyond what they deem acceptable (whether or not legal), then they are likely to resist the implementation of AMI. Consumers may refuse to consent (where required), hide their data or awaken political opposition. Utilities may face customer liability claims or regulatory fines if inadequate privacy or security practices enable eavesdroppers, adversaries or bad-actors to acquire and use AMI data to a customer’s detriment. Utilities must take privacy and security concerns into account when designing AMI and must persuade consumers, regulators and politicians that privacy interests are adequately protected.

The first step is to adopt appropriate privacy policies defining what data may be collected and their permissible uses, disclosing those practices clearly and conspicuously, and obtaining consents where required. Since AMI data differ qualitatively from what utilities collected in the past, they will likely need new and stronger privacy and security policies. Consumers are interested primarily in controlling what information is collected, who has access to it, and how it may be used. These interests are often described in fair information privacy practices or core principles, such as theOECD’s Guidelines on the Protection of Privacy and Transborder Flows of Personal Data.

Once a utility establishes the permissible uses of AMI data, it is in its interest to assure that unauthorized uses do not occur. For example, if an electricity service provider is allowed to sell appliance related data to a manufacturer or retailer, the utility will want to protect its economic interest by preventing access or use by others who might become competitive data brokers. Every utility will want to avoid regulatory sanctions for violating express or implied privacy policies as well as damages claims based on compromised customer data or facilities.

A policy that appropriately limits the use of collected data provides no consumer protection if the data can be accessed by unauthorized persons or can be used by authorized persons for unauthorized purposes. Thus the utility’s second step is to establish systems for enforcement of the policies and control of the data through adoption of suitable security practices, training and audits.

The Smart Grid Faces Off Against Privacy Rights Environmental Leader Green Business, Sustainable Business, and Green Strategy News for Corporate Sustainability Executives

LeCompte points to a Whirlpool smart appliance device and how it would make decisions based on information from the grid (is this a time of peak power usage?), without giving control of the device to the grid and without divulging back upstream what decisions a consumer makes with the device. Under such a federated approach, LeCompte writes, “The utility, the device maker, and the consumer would all have access to specific information relevant to their own needs without sharing sensitive information.”

I assure you that privacy rights will be addressed as smart grids start to be implemented.

 

[cbi1972]

The government does not have access to that data. Your power company like Alabama Power would be the only people with access to the data. You aren't worried about your cable company knowing exactly what pages you visit while surfing the web or what you are watching on TV? They would need a court order to access the data.

A Government-Mandated Backdoor for Every Network

That's what the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) promises if the FBI gets its way.

The Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) was passed in 1994 to make it easier for the feds to listen in to everyone's phone calls. The law forced phone companies to design their digital networks with special backdoors for government surveillance. There was a single saving grace - CALEA did not apply to the Internet.

CALEA - The Perils of Wiretapping the Internet

On August 5, 2005, the FCC announced a Final Rule, expanding CALEA to Internet broadband providers and certain Voice-over-IP (VoIP) providers.

I know newborn humans are developmentally incapable of forming coherent sentences and typing them out on the Internet, but the naivete in some statements posted here makes me wonder.

 

[Bama4Ever831]

A Government-Mandated Backdoor for Every Network


CALEA - The Perils of Wiretapping the Internet


I know newborn humans are developmentally incapable of forming coherent sentences and typing them out on the Internet, but the naivete in some statements posted here makes me wonder.

So now wiretapping of phones and VOIP is the same as using DATA that people accumulate by making choices such as whether to use hot or cold water in the washer are now the same thing? I am against wiretapping and I really don't see how you can compare possibly being able to see DATA that a certain person's TV is on(in some number like kiloWatts or something) to listening to a person talk on the phone. :conf2:

Being against the smart grid on those accounts, would mean that you are against the internet as it is not that secure. So what is your story? The government can track you on the internet, why are you surfing the web when they could wiretap you if you use VOIP?

 

[swoop10]

1. Why they would want to know who is using what appliance and for how long?

2. Why is it bad if they know this? You can use the data to save money on your energy bill.

The government does not have access to that data. Your power company like Alabama Power would be the only people with access to the data. You aren't worried about your cable company knowing exactly what pages you visit while surfing the web or what you are watching on TV? They would need a court order to access the data.


FAQ: What the smart grid means to you | Green Tech - CNET News

Smart Grid: Data Privacy and Security Issues for Advanced Metering Systems (Part 2) - Smart Grid News - Grid Modernization and the Smart Grid
[/FONT]


The Smart Grid Faces Off Against Privacy Rights Environmental Leader Green Business, Sustainable Business, and Green Strategy News for Corporate Sustainability Executives




I assure you that privacy rights will be addressed as smart grids start to be implemented.

1. Sooner or later, just as they are doing with industry with cap and trade, they will want to control the amount of carbon we put out.

2. I'm not stupid, I know how to control my energy usage and it's bad because the gov has no business knowing anything about what I do in my house.

Now as for the gov having access to this information. You either haven't either read all of the posts or you have overlooked what I mentioned earlier about GE. General Electric's CEO is Jeff Immult, who just happens to be on P-BO's economic advisory team. He is also the owner of NBC, and which channel is the most proObama channel in all of TV land. And for the final point GE just so happens to be one of the companies who will build the smart grid and I'm sure they will have plenty to do with it after it is in place.

When all is said and done I don't think those privacy rights will mean a hill of beans.

 

[Relayer]

1. Sooner or later, just as they are doing with industry with cap and trade, they will want to control the amount of carbon we put out.

2. I'm not stupid, I know how to control my energy usage and it's bad because the gov has no business knowing anything about what I do in my house.

Yeah, well, that was before the Obama "transformation of America". He promised it, now we're going to get it.

 

[Bama4Ever831]

When all is said and done I don't think those privacy rights will mean a hill of beans.

If you look at my last quote, even the utility company would not have any sensitive information. It would only be you that would be allowed to access it. But as you don't trust anything within six degrees of the government, there is really no reason to argue.

 

[swoop10]

If you look at my last quote, even the utility company would not have any sensitive information. It would only be you that would be allowed to access it. But as you don't trust anything within six degrees of the government, there is really no reason to argue.

I don't really care about what is said now, it is years from now that concern me. You can say what you want but everything in the gov changes and it is usually in the direction towards the gov. Let's take income tax for example, I believe it started out less than 5% and the progressives said don't worry it'll never go over 5% so the people don't have to worry. Well where is it at now and what makes you think that sooner or later this won't be used against you? But as you trust everything within six degrees of the gov, there is really no reason to argue.

 

[Bama4Ever831]

I don't really care about what is said now, it is years from now that concern me. You can say what you want but everything in the gov changes and it is usually in the direction towards the gov. Let's take income tax for example, I believe it started out less than 5% and the progressives said don't worry it'll never go over 5% so the people don't have to worry. Well where is it at now and what makes you think that sooner or later this won't be used against you? But as you trust everything within six degrees of the gov, there is really no reason to argue.

We get to the same point in every argument, yet we still take the time to argue.

 

[cbi1972]

So now wiretapping of phones and VOIP is the same as using DATA that people accumulate by making choices such as whether to use hot or cold water in the washer are now the same thing? I am against wiretapping and I really don't see how you can compare possibly being able to see DATA that a certain person's TV is on(in some number like kiloWatts or something) to listening to a person talk on the phone. :conf2:

Being against the smart grid on those accounts, would mean that you are against the internet as it is not that secure. So what is your story? The government can track you on the internet, why are you surfing the web when they could wiretap you if you use VOIP?

The point is that the government makes all sorts of assurances that privacy will be protected, that we only are interested in a little bit of information, that it is for a very good reason, and they won't misuse it. However, these assurances are swiftly forgotten, and more and more liberty is taken away, in the name of doing something good.

Give an inch, they take a mile. Give up the mile, and they take everything.

 

[swoop10]

We get to the same point in every argument, yet we still take the time to argue.

It just wouldn't be fun if we didn't do it. Now you can't tell me that you would rather be doing anything else. Wait.... okay maybe you can.