Another born-on-third-base story

CajunCrimson

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Bama4Ever831

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http://www.multpl.com/u-s-federal-debt-percent/

The evidence doesn't support your statement. But take a look what happens in 2008

In fact, when the debt as a percentage of GDP was at its lowest was when our economy was in the toilet of the mid 70s
Your graph shows the debt steadily rising from 1980 till 1995ish (when Clinton started raising taxes).


Clearly deficit doesn't necessarily equal health of economy in its entirety, but the rising deficit doesn't help the case of trickle down economics.
 
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mikes12

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The original post here cited a personal story of someone coming from nothing and working their way up. And still some people think the way to 'help others' is to punish 'the rich'.
 

lazlohollyfeld

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You and I agree on many things, however this is not one.

Take someone who is a ditch digger. This guy works long hours to provide for his family and maybe brings in 50k a year. Now lets say there is another guy who at the beginning of the year has 100M in the bank. Through wise investments he is able to get a 10% return, for a nice even 10M in income that year.

I understand the idea of the double taxation, but don't agree that it is truly double taxed in principle.

This comes back to my point I've stated time and again. Ones status and position in life should not make there be a different set of rules that those two people play by. Make both of their tax rates 10, 20, or 0% but don't treat someone who is profiting off of other people's work purely by choosing to invest in that company as any different than someone who is actually doing the work.

Primarily because investments allow someone to take a loss on a bad guess. That guy digging the ditch doesn't get to deduct on his taxes the days when he doesn't work because he made a bad decision to eat 4 day old sushi.

Also trickle down has been proven to not work time and time again. Until I see the proof that it actually does anything other than line the pockets of the rich I will continue to call BS that if only the American people would let the smart rich folks do what they want we will all be driving Cadillacs and eating lobster every night.
So, maybe the ditch digger should start investing his money.................?

You are right on making a bad investment, however, you are not appreciating the situation. No one wants to make a bad investment and lose their money, although anyone with experience has made a bad choice or two. Of course, this is a reason why taxes on investment income should be lower, because the person doing the investment is taking a risk with money that has already been earned and taxed. As noted by Bodhi, raising the capital gains taxes into the 35-50% range would kill the economy. Personally I am not going to take the risk of losing all or even some of my investment if I'm only going to be allowed to keep half of whatever I make. Come to think of it, neither would the ditch digger.

One of the glaring issues with what you said is your take that only the super rich benefit. That is patently false as anyone who invests benefits from lower capital gains taxes. My 23 year old niece is a waitress at Chamberlains here in Dallas, she has made some decent investments. If she can, so can anyone. Why don't you like the little people?
 
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CajunCrimson

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Your graph shows the debt steadily rising from 1980 till 1995ish (when Clinton started raising taxes).


Clearly deficit doesn't necessarily equal health of economy in its entirety, but the rising deficit doesn't help the case of trickle down economics.
Wow.....really?

Because what I saw was that trickle down economics gave Reagan enough money to destroy the Soviet Empire, which he ultimately did. He spent money on defense forcing them to compete and ultimately broke them....all while keeping the Debt at less than 40% of GDP.

During the Clinton era the debt grew to 50% settling back to About 35% after the Congress became republican....with no other superpower to compete with, and the Tech Boom well underway.W kept it between 32-40% until about 2008 when O took over.

Now it's 68% and continuing to grow....No war spending, no superpower to compete with, raising taxes, no trickle down economics....

Just Obamacare, record entitlements, lots of golf, and campaigning.....
 

chanson78

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So, maybe the ditch digger should start investing his money.................?
You are right. The way the system is now, people should take advantage of the available means to make money that are out there.

I honestly don't have much of an argument for people who do not avail themselves of all opportunities for growth. I would make a small caveat, granted your niece is likely the exception and not the rule, there aren't a whole lot of people with 50k jobs who have time or money left over in the day to take advantage of the market.

Regarding the super rich.

Again, sourced from a leftist leaning source, but I don't think you can argue that the statistics evaluation is off.

http://www.faireconomy.org/research/TrickleDown.html
In summation the article performs a statistical correlation between top tax rates to determine the correlation coefficient between top tax rates and various economic indicators for the period 1954 to 2004. In all cases but one, there has never been a significant statistical correlation between lower taxes and anything that would be considered "trickle down", and in that outlier it was a fairly anemic link.

1. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to economic growth. - Correlation coefficient 0.03
2. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to income growth. - Correlation coefficient 0.06
3. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to wage growth. - Correlation coefficient (Didn't have for this one, however the correlation between raising taxes and wage growth was 0.34, which indicates higher taxes correlated to higher wage growth on the peons)
4. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to job creation. - Correlation coefficient 0.11 (some indication that people do hire more when taxes are lower)
 

seebell

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If you raise taxes on investments, you lower the amount of money that gets invested. Less investments mean fewer jobs.

Why is that difficult to understand?

The invested income allows companies to expand. No expansion, fewer jobs.

Fewer jobs, more wasted money in entitlements.

More receiving entitlements more that vote for Democrats...

OHHHHHHH! I get it now....Dang you Libs are Perty smart....

Nice racquet you guys got going
New u wood c the lite !!:biggrin:
 

lazlohollyfeld

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You are right. The way the system is now, people should take advantage of the available means to make money that are out there.

I honestly don't have much of an argument for people who do not avail themselves of all opportunities for growth. I would make a small caveat, granted your niece is likely the exception and not the rule, there aren't a whole lot of people with 50k jobs who have time or money left over in the day to take advantage of the market.

Regarding the super rich.

Again, sourced from a leftist leaning source, but I don't think you can argue that the statistics evaluation is off.

http://www.faireconomy.org/research/TrickleDown.html
In summation the article performs a statistical correlation between top tax rates to determine the correlation coefficient between top tax rates and various economic indicators for the period 1954 to 2004. In all cases but one, there has never been a significant statistical correlation between lower taxes and anything that would be considered "trickle down", and in that outlier it was a fairly anemic link.

1. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to economic growth. - Correlation coefficient 0.03
2. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to income growth. - Correlation coefficient 0.06
3. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to wage growth. - Correlation coefficient (Didn't have for this one, however the correlation between raising taxes and wage growth was 0.34, which indicates higher taxes correlated to higher wage growth on the peons)
4. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to job creation. - Correlation coefficient 0.11 (some indication that people do hire more when taxes are lower)
A statistics heavy article by an author known as a Middle East Policy Analyst? I'll give that a huge amount of faith and toss out what I've learned as a business owner.

Here's the deal, I really don't care what a 10 year old article purports to show. Seven years ago I pooled every single dollar that my wife and I had accumulated to that point in our life. We took the land outside Cooper, Texas that was left to my wife by her Grandmother and sold one parcel, leased out two more, and mortgaged another. And I sold my Chevy II that I had painstakingly restored. I took all that money and lumped it in with 3 partners and started a business that now has 38 employees. Obviously a big concern to the wife and I was the amount of time to recoup the money I had put in. Do you think taxes were not a part of that discussion?

Two years ago we moved the company from San Diego to Austin, would you like to know one of the prime reasons? Why are wealthy French leaving that country in droves? Why did so many English entertainers relocate to somewhere other than the UK in the 1970's? Why do so many pro golfers live in Texas and Florida?

The problem with articles like this is it flies in the face of the things I see and the people I interface with in my everyday life.
 
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chanson78

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A statistics heavy article by an author known as a Middle East Policy Analyst? I'll give that a huge amount of faith and toss out what I've learned as a business owner.

Here's the deal, I really don't care what a 10 year old article purports to show. Seven years ago I pooled every single dollar that my wife and I had accumulated to that point in our life. We took the land outside Cooper, Texas that was left to my wife by her Grandmother and sold one parcel, leased out two more, and mortgaged another. And I sold my Chevy II that I had painstakingly restored. I took all that money and lumped it in with 3 partners and started a business that now has 38 employees. Obviously a big concern to the wife and I was the amount of time to recoup the money I had put in. Do you think taxes were not a part of that discussion?

Two years ago we moved the company from San Diego to Austin, would you like to know one of the prime reasons? Why are wealthy French leaving that country in droves? Why did so many English entertainers relocate to somewhere other than the UK in the 19070's? Why do so many pro golfers live in Texas and Florida?

The problem with articles like this is it flies in the face of the things I see and the people I interface with in my everyday life.
In the interest of full disclosure, my personal exposure and experience with regards to taxes as a business person, come only through my experiences while trying to get my own small software company off the ground. All that being said, I cannot dispute your decisions for how your business is run and what is happening with regards to taxes and how you choose to do things. A. Its none of my business. B. I don't have any relevant experience that can counter your choices or arguments.

What I do have however is an article in the New York Times regarding a report that came out in 2012 created by the Congressional Research Service. The report by this non-profit supposedly non partisan group concludes:

Congressional Research Service said:
The results of the analysis suggest that changes over the past 65 years in the top marginal tax rate and the top capital gains tax rate do not appear correlated with economic growth. The reduction in the top tax rates appears to be uncorrelated with saving, investment, and productivity growth. The top tax rates appear to have little or no relation to the size of the economic pie.
However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution. As measured by IRS data, the share of income accruing to the top 0.1% of U.S. families increased from 4.2% in 1945 to 12.3% by 2007 before falling to 9.2% due to the 2007-2009 recession. At the same time, the average tax rate paid by the top 0.1% fell from over 50% in 1945 to about 25% in 2009. Tax policy could have a relation to how the economic pie is sliced—lower top tax rates may be associated with greater income disparities.
Edit: Here is the article -
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/b...search-services-report-on-tax-rates.html?_r=0
 
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Bamabuzzard

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I just don't understand the need to continue to tax. Why not focus on cutting spending so we can try to reach a tax ceiling where we don't have to tax everything? Set a goal where people can actually make money that doesn't get taxed? Businesses are not in business to be taxed. People go in business to make money and to make more than the "average Joe" who chooses to work for someone else. Like the guy (Dr. Carson ???) who spoke at the prayer breakfast said. I'm paraphrasing, the goal shouldn't be to tax people until it "hurts" them. Government and its involvement has gotten so ingrained into people's minds that they feel the government needs to tax everything someone makes. That is a bad mindset in my opinion.
 

lazlohollyfeld

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I just don't understand the need to continue to tax. Why not focus on cutting spending so we can try to reach a tax ceiling where we don't have to tax everything? Set a goal where people can actually make money that doesn't get taxed? Businesses are not in business to be taxed. People go in business to make money and to make more than the "average Joe" who chooses to work for someone else. Like the guy (Dr. Carson ???) who spoke at the prayer breakfast said. I'm paraphrasing, the goal shouldn't be to tax people until it "hurts" them. Government and its involvement has gotten so ingrained into people's minds that they feel the government needs to tax everything someone makes. That is a bad mindset in my opinion.
Says the guy trying to start a business...
 

chanson78

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Says the guy trying to start a business...
I agree with everything buzzard said. It isn't a matter of me believing that taxes are good. Or that I even "want" to pay them. What I get cranky about is that it isn't uniform the amount of taxes paid in on both the top and bottom of the spectrum. Someone making between 50-250K is often paying a higher percentage in taxes than those outside the range. I will get crucified for saying this here, but that isn't fair. Again I will say it, I don't begrudge someone making oodles of money. I do begrudge them when they are able to rig the system and be able to play by a different set of rules than I do. It comes down to opportunity. The rules are different in the rarified air of the uber wealthy.

Like I said earlier, I don't care what the tax rate ends up being (well I do, I would prefer it to be as small as possible), just make it uniform. I have no qualms with people being wealthy, I would love to get there one day, yet when I go to work every day and come home and bust my tail in the evenings building my business, it just isn't in my DNA to think that you can quantify my work as less valuable than some jerkface trader paying 5-10% less in taxes than I do.

I am fully ready for the barrage of jealousy, and bitterness posts that people will inevitably throw out because I am whining that someone is doing better than me.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Agreed. As a small business person who works 40+ hours per week on a "real job" then come home and continue to work on building my business. I invest A LOT of personal resources into bettering myself which will ultimately allow me to contribute more to the society/economy. I want to eventually work for myself and get away from all the mess that comes along with working for someone else.

The tax code and many other things in our government is "rigged" to help the bottom tier and the upper tier, but caving in on the middle folks. Those making between $50-$250K/year. It shouldn't be that way.


I agree with everything buzzard said. It isn't a matter of me believing that taxes are good. Or that I even "want" to pay them. What I get cranky about is that it isn't uniform the amount of taxes paid in on both the top and bottom of the spectrum. Someone making between 50-250K is often paying a higher percentage in taxes than those outside the range. I will get crucified for saying this here, but that isn't fair. Again I will say it, I don't begrudge someone making oodles of money. I do begrudge them when they are able to rig the system and be able to play by a different set of rules than I do. It comes down to opportunity. The rules are different in the rarified air of the uber wealthy.

Like I said earlier, I don't care what the tax rate ends up being (well I do, I would prefer it to be as small as possible), just make it uniform. I have no qualms with people being wealthy, I would love to get there one day, yet when I go to work every day and come home and bust my tail in the evenings building my business, it just isn't in my DNA to think that you can quantify my work as less valuable than some jerkface trader paying 5-10% less in taxes than I do.

I am fully ready for the barrage of jealousy, and bitterness posts that people will inevitably throw out because I am whining that someone is doing better than me.
 
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lazlohollyfeld

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I agree with everything buzzard said. It isn't a matter of me believing that taxes are good. Or that I even "want" to pay them. What I get cranky about is that it isn't uniform the amount of taxes paid in on both the top and bottom of the spectrum. Someone making between 50-250K is often paying a higher percentage in taxes than those outside the range. I will get crucified for saying this here, but that isn't fair. Again I will say it, I don't begrudge someone making oodles of money. I do begrudge them when they are able to rig the system and be able to play by a different set of rules than I do. It comes down to opportunity. The rules are different in the rarified air of the uber wealthy.

Like I said earlier, I don't care what the tax rate ends up being (well I do, I would prefer it to be as small as possible), just make it uniform. I have no qualms with people being wealthy, I would love to get there one day, yet when I go to work every day and come home and bust my tail in the evenings building my business, it just isn't in my DNA to think that you can quantify my work as less valuable than some jerkface trader paying 5-10% less in taxes than I do.

I am fully ready for the barrage of jealousy, and bitterness posts that people will inevitably throw out because I am whining that someone is doing better than me.
I am not uber wealthy, why do you want to jack up my capital gains tax rate? Why are you trying to take more money away from me? In your zeal to take more from the wealthy you are going to prevent, or delay, people like me from becoming "wealthy". Warren Buffet already has his, I'm trying to get mine and people like you want to throw up more obstacles. And I don't want to be Buffet wealthy, nor will I ever as I honest to God do not want to work that hard. I'm doing all of this, making my money work for me, so that sometime in my 50's (hopefully) I can play golf and smoke cigars all day. And the more crap people like you throw up the further out that glorious day will be.
 

Bamabuzzard

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I am not uber wealthy, why do you want to jack up my capital gains tax rate? Why are you trying to take more money away from me? In your zeal to take more from the wealthy you are going to prevent, or delay, people like me from becoming "wealthy". Warren Buffet already has his, I'm trying to get mine and people like you want to throw up more obstacles. And I don't want to be Buffet wealthy, nor will I ever as I honest to God do not want to work that hard. I'm doing all of this, making my money work for me, so that sometime in my 50's (hopefully) I can play golf and smoke cigars all day. And the more crap people like you throw up the further out that glorious day will be.

I maybe misunderstanding what he's saying Laz but it sounds like '78 is advocating the same tax rate for everybody. Whether it is 1% or 31%, everyone needs to be taxed on the same percentage level.

BTW, can I come play golf and smoke cigars wif you?
 
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chanson78

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I maybe misunderstanding what he's saying Lazy but it sounds like '78 is advocating the same tax rate for everybody. Whether it is 1% or 31%, everyone needs to be taxed on the same percentage level.

BTW, can I come play golf and smoke cigars wif you?
Thats exactly what I am saying. Consider it shared pain that may eventually force people to take an interest in what the government is doing and elect people who will actually do something about it.
 

BamaPokerplayer

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A statistics heavy article by an author known as a Middle East Policy Analyst? I'll give that a huge amount of faith and toss out what I've learned as a business owner.

Here's the deal, I really don't care what a 10 year old article purports to show. Seven years ago I pooled every single dollar that my wife and I had accumulated to that point in our life. We took the land outside Cooper, Texas that was left to my wife by her Grandmother and sold one parcel, leased out two more, and mortgaged another. And I sold my Chevy II that I had painstakingly restored. I took all that money and lumped it in with 3 partners and started a business that now has 38 employees. Obviously a big concern to the wife and I was the amount of time to recoup the money I had put in. Do you think taxes were not a part of that discussion?

Two years ago we moved the company from San Diego to Austin, would you like to know one of the prime reasons? Why are wealthy French leaving that country in droves? Why did so many English entertainers relocate to somewhere other than the UK in the 1970's? Why do so many pro golfers live in Texas and Florida?

The problem with articles like this is it flies in the face of the things I see and the people I interface with in my everyday life.
No one does this anymore, America has almost completely it's stones to take risk. I hope your vision comes true for you and you can tell the haters to ........
 

BamaPokerplayer

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Like I said earlier, I don't care what the tax rate ends up being (well I do, I would prefer it to be as small as possible), just make it uniform. I have no qualms with people being wealthy, I would love to get there one day, yet when I go to work every day and come home and bust my tail in the evenings building my business, it just isn't in my DNA to think that you can quantify my work as less valuable than some jerkface trader paying 5-10% less in taxes than I do.

I am fully ready for the barrage of jealousy, and bitterness posts that people will inevitably throw out because I am whining that someone is doing better than me.
Don't be mean to the trader working 100 hour work weeks. :)
 

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