A very narrow view but to each his own. Who are you to disparage your friends choices? Not yours to make. We all make our own choices. I'm perfectly content w/my life in the aspects given over to God. Pretty much everything else is on me and the choices I do/don't make.
Arian Foster goes public as a non-believer
- Thread starter Jon
- Start date
you left out pushing foreign policies based on the belief that we are living in the end timesI see lot's of downsides to believing, mostly because it causes people to forsake they one life they know they definitively have for one they may have after death. Belief makes people not eat bacon, or a good steak on Friday evening, or forgo alcohol or shellfish, explore their sexuality, disown gay family members and so many other things. I have a friend who walked away from the perfect woman for him, it was unbelievable how great they were together, just because she wasn't Catholic. That makes me sad and his life has never been as happy but because of his belief he chose to gamble on an unknowable afterlife while throwing away a happy life
I would not choose disbelief because something stupid someone else did. One thing I have learned in my journey thus far is never blame God for something man unwisely chose to do, calling it God's will, or whatnot. Lots of harm has come "in the name of the Lord", which the Lord had nothing to do with.
Who am I to disparage? I don't disparage his choice, but I do lament it as does he as he revealed to me over beers early this summer late one night. See she's now married to someone else and long gone, he's single, lonely and really sad about it. 10 years on and he realizes that she was perfect for him. He's had relationships with others but none can compare and he can't help but compare them all to her.
How can one tell the difference? I am not being snarky here.
We have presidential candidates saying that they were spoken to by God to run for office and that they will do what he wants. We also have others like David Koresh who not only claimed to talk to God but was his voice here on earth. Faith in a higher power isn't necessarily in and of itself a bad thing. Its when people start cherry picking portions of a given faiths propaganda that most issues arise.
It never ceases to amaze me what other human beings will do to others in the name of divine righteousness.
Here is the rub, in your own comment you imply that you know what God's will is. You use this knowledge to chalk up someone else's deeds as misguided in the ways of the Lord. Now that may be a judgement call, but it seems awful capricious that no one is willing to give God credit for the crappy stuff that man does to each other, but he sure as heck gets the lions share when through hard work and science some kid is cured of cancer.
I try to separate whether or not there are downsides from base belief. For me my belief system would continually get washed away by single events or perceived injustices. I would ignore the obvious due to my own issues. I think it is what Jesus was talking about when he described the house built on sand. Basing ones belief on how THEY would like to live their life (as I did for almost a decade) is a choice that has consequences too, and in my experience some very self destructive ones. I never could find that happy life in self indulgence. There was always something I wanted and couldn't get. I could never find real contentment. Aging was depressing.I see lot's of downsides to believing, mostly because it causes people to forsake they one life they know they definitively have for one they may have after death. Belief makes people not eat bacon, or a good steak on Friday evening, or forgo alcohol or shellfish, explore their sexuality, disown gay family members and so many other things. I have a friend who walked away from the perfect woman for him, it was unbelievable how great they were together, just because she wasn't Catholic. That makes me sad and his life has never been as happy but because of his belief he chose to gamble on an unknowable afterlife while throwing away a happy life
Like I said earlier. I had to come to some belief in a God first before I came to believe what I do about the nature of God. Lots of people throughout history believe/d that there is a God/Gods, but not a kind and gracious one.
When I believed in a God, but believed he was cruel and unkind, I rebelled and did not care.Tried to prove it wrong, and was humbled. I did not take it very well and lost my belief altogether.
When I did not believe, my personal choices where more selfish, self indulgent, destructive to myself and others.
I believe that God is kind, gracious and wants the best for me. Actually created me with a purpose to do good, and has an ultimate plan for me. That makes a great deal of difference. My happiness in this life is not that important to me, but I have never been happier.
As I said before none of these is necessarily tied to belief. One can be altruistic without belief for the good of mankind. However, the fact that people can make decisions that are not based on selfishness is one of the hundreds of reasons I do believe, but most of my most substantive proofs have come afterward testing what God promised. IMO it does not line up very well with Darwinian thought.
IMO your friend is sad because he wants something that he cannot have. Guess what? We all could be sad, and are sometimes sad about that. It is much healthier to be content with what I do have and look forward to better times. It is necessary to take ones lumps from what I see as past mistakes and move on. He can make the same choice whether he believes in God or not, but that is a constant theme in the Bible. It would be much better than drowning his sorrows in a beer (a choice I used to make).
Belief does offer a psychologically better way.
I didn't imply that at all. I am referring to extreme cases, including "in the name of divine righteousness", i.e. the Crusades, the Inquisition, Westboro, etc. Evil is in this world, but God never willed evil. But he did allow people to make their own choices, some of which are evil. So that was not even close to a blanket statement. I've gone through trials, that God allowed, some of which were also consequences of my stupidity, and He received "credit", if you will. Also, I'm not chalking it up to "misguided in the ways of the Lord". As a matter of fact, I'm saying that things sometimes happen to people because they are not necessarily following the ways of the Lord. By the way, I try to stay in tune with what God's will for my life is, but I can't speak for other people, only make observations if I am in the know. Otherwise, it is passing judgment.
"Its when people start cherry picking portions of a given faiths propaganda that most issues arise." I don't see how that disproves my point, that God doesn't mess things up...people do.
That is a seriously good question that I struggled with for a LONG time. It took some lessons learned to get me to the point to actually spend the time reading what each religion believed about the nature of God and do some proof tests. Without the study of the Bible it is impossible to determine where there is cherry picking going on. If one is to believe the Bible is really true Satan himself did some cherry picking. That is not limited to Christianity. The same is true for the Koran, Vedas, Buddhist texts, etc. If you are going to prove someone is not what they say they are you need to know what the difference is. That only comes from study and testing. There has been a lot of cherry picking on a lot of fronts in Islam recently.
That gets back to separating whether there is a God from the nature of God. How those arguments are addressed in Christian scriptures makes more sense than anything else.
People fake it all the time for their own purposes. Try to make themselves out to be something they are not. In some cases it is pretty evident, others it is not. Generally I think you can tell by the humility of the person. IMO If someone is truly trying to do someone else's will they give the credit to them and do not elevate themselves. IMO that is a pretty good measure to use.
The fact is I believe that one can feel when you are doing God's will when in tune with it. I used to think that that was all balderdash. However, guilt is a real thing and so is feeling good about oneself. Sometimes conscience is a faulty measure, one can sear themselves to where they feel no guilt, or have too much pride to determine the source of a good feeling. However, it is very difficult to know the heart of someone else.
I don't think this is a terrible measuring stick. But that brings up the question as to why anyone would ever use what a politician says regarding their beliefs in God and how they act accordingly to guide their vote. Show me a humble politician and I will show you someone who never won a race for any office.
Fair enough. The way some of our early leaders of this country spoke in this manner are some good examples, and not so good ones.
lots of things to respond to. First though, sorry for the delay as well as responding to others before you. Obviously I can't respond to all but I have been trying very hard to respond to any "new" argument and to every refutation of any claim I made.
All that said, I retract the statement of the Ancient Greeks. Did a bit of googling in between calls on a surprisingly busy workday and confirmed that yeah my timelines were way, way off. Thanks for the correction there
On the Chinese, perhaps I wasn't clear. My scenario assumes a Chinese Jesus, Chinese Mary, Chinese Joseph not the Chinese documenting the guy in the Middle East but god choosing to have his Son born in Shanghai or Hong Kong instead of Bethlehem. My point here is that if you are going to go through this method of revelation where is the logic to do it where and when he did? It makes no sense. If 0 AD was the right time why not pick a place with a highly literate culture with an excellent tradition of documentation? If the place was right why not wait another 800 years and do it while the Middle East is a stable place with a culture that praises knowledge and writing? 800 Years is nothing to your God so i'm lead to believe.
and sure, some of the apocrypha are frauds but not all can be easily discounted. We also know that there were different councils (Nicea, Trent) called over the last two centuries to determine what was and was not cannon. How do you know that they got it right? And by the way if the answer there is that you have faith your faith here is in Man not god as it was men sitting in these councils deciding.
On China, vs. the Middle East, hey, ya gotta start somewhere. LOL Anyway, Jesus told His disciples to go out into the world and begin preaching and teaching, and they did so. And, in ancient China, there were Jews, according to history. Why it didn't catch on, I wouldn't blame God...
And yes, there were different councils, debating various topics, and pretty much all of them were well after Jesus had died. Many different sects, Gnostics only being one, had entered the scene. So church leaders wanted to discuss and hammer out not just canon, but "This is what we believe", so that there would be no confusion. All things that did not line up were thrown out, and deemed to be heretical. They had copies of documents and manuscripts that have not all survived, but had an even greater perspective of faith than we have today. But when you compare what became apocrypha to what became the established canon, the difference are blatantly obvious. Even before there was a canon, the early church leaders were already sorting this out, because some writings were so contrary to Jesus' teachings, so the "throwing out" of potential accepted scriptures goes much deeper and earlier than the first actual councils. Now, these men were deciding what would be the trusted and accepted scriptures, but nearly all of them were already accepted as scriptures for 100s (New Testament) to 1000s (Old Testament) of years, as they had been either passed down, copied and/or published throughout the various regions. So it really not so much a matter of whether my faith is in Man, but more that God's word could get passed around with the essentials staying intact. Which they have. I recently read "Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible" by John Haley. Pretty good read. People love to get get caught up in place names, or wrong numbers, which there may very well be some copyist errors, but the essential tenets of the faith have been passed down beautifully. And other fields of study, such as archaeology, are consistently backing up things found in the scriptures, dating back to Old Testament times.
I would have three responses to this.
1. As to where and to what people. It is not what he said he was going to do. To be who he said he was he had to come to where he said he would. He also had to fulfil a law that was put in place as a teacher. The thing that was being taught was that we cannot hope to live a life of checklist rule keeping. Everything previous was setup in place to allow Jesus to be the sacrifice that made all things new, and for it to be authentic those things set in place had to be done.
2. A promise was kept to Abraham. This is no small thing.
3. As to when. There is really no explanation given as to why then, but there are some good speculations.
The Greek and Roman culture of the time had every bit the possibility and did provide a way for the documentation as good as the Chinese would have. Whether or not one accepts the documentation that is there, the fact is that it survived in as shown before larger numbers than any other document.
The Jewish diaspora provided a structure for the word to be spread.
While there were magicians doing some good fraud back then, what Jesus did was obvious to the most casual observer. A later coming could be discounted by more advanced special effects.
To continue using the Chinese as a guinea pig, I believe if he made the same promises to a Chinese faithful man; setup some Chinese lineage to give the law to; sent a Moses to Mongolians and freed some Chinese in bondage; then sent his Son to be killed by Chinese who saw the prophesies fulfilled and no doubt miracles, but still did not believe; the same thing would have happened.
Good point. One must read what has survived for themselves. However, when you do the differences are pretty obvious. I do believe they were led by God. Whether or not they were I believe they did a good job.
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Great post. To fulfill prophecy, He had to be born in Bethlehem, be from the Davidic line, etc..., as there were many prophecies that the Messiah had to fulfill. That's a whole 'nother topic.
come on guys really? We are talking about a supreme being here, he created the prophecies too right? Shift the entire thing to China and make a Chinese Abraham. He's god he can do anything right? You guys make it seem that he was beholden to Abraham and not vice versa. But in reality this whole idea and the defense of god's actions here is getting downright silly. I posit that revelation where and when he did makes no logical sense, period. For a supreme being, he sure chose a stupid way to reveal himself. Why not just write "I Exist and the Southern Baptist (or Mormon's, B'Hai, Whatever) have the correct interpretation of me" on the Moon in giant letters we can all read from earth? With god all things are possible right? Why the weird hints, books to translate and interpret and "must have faith" crap, especially when the stakes are so high?
Maybe because the Roman Empire was way bigger and more accessible than china? The Romans allowed freedom of religion as long as it didn't threaten the empire and it had a multitude of different cultures and people in it. Christianity flourished within the empire, and eventually was accepted by the emperors. Can you really say if china would've been as successful at spreading Christianity? The answer is no.
I really don't get your Chinese argument because you are talking about a country that has been primarily a stomping ground for anyone who wanted it until shortly after ww2.
Also, serious question and not meaning any offense, why is it so important for you to try to prove there isn't a god when you already don't believe in one? I ask it because the bulk of the articles and threads you post are about some Christians getting out of line or the new scientific proof that there isn't a god. We go through this every time and neither side is going to change their opinion. At first I thought you posted this article to get a rise and then compare Arian and tebow's stories, but it has gone back to the is there a god or is there not a god thing we've been through so many times. I'll argue history with you but pretty much anything else is going to be determined what you spiritually believe and that is very biased so we will get nowhere with that argument
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