Combined CMG thread - please don't start new ones...

[BamaMan34]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

I would like to know where you got these bogus numbers. RollTide.com and ESPN.COM show us shooting 58% this year. If you watched the games, you would know we dont shoot 70%.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=333
http://www.rolltide.com/fls/8000/files/mbasketball/2007-08/teamcume.htm?DB_OEM_ID=8000

and i never implied Gottfried should be fired just because of free throws.

2007 = last season

This is the 2007-2008 season. The point is he must have been doing something right over the years.

 

[1LoudTideFan]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

2007 = last season

This is the 2007-2008 season. The point is he must have been doing something right over the years.

hopefully it will get better this year as well.

i wish i could find a statistic for the front end of a 1 and 1. i bet we are shooting in the 20 or low 30 percentile on this shot.

 

[BamaLaw]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

I don't have a law degree, so maybe my inferences aren't logical but I would argue those calling for new coaches have changed their expectations of this program. ...

Speaking for myself, as one calling for change, My expectations for this program were formed about 20 years ago and have not changed since that time. I certainly think that my expectations are reasonable. They include going 10-6 or better in conference play (protecting the home court and steeling at least a couple each year on the road), winning the non-conference games you are "supposed" to win and steeling a couple of the occasional "high profile" made for TV games, Also, making it to the finals of the SEC Tourney should be a given. I expect to get into the NCAA tourney EVERY season and consistently make the sweet sixteen and be playing on the second weekend of the tourney. If you do these things consistently, you will make the occasional Elite 8. You make enough of the E-8s and you get your trip to the final 4. These have been my expectations for 20 years; however, with Gottfried at the helm, I've learned to expect to be disappointed. So, either I have changed (lowered) my expectations or learned to endure disappointment. It is because I still have high expectations for this program, that I am calling for change.

 

[TideAlum]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

Speaking for myself, as one calling for change, My expectations for this program were formed about 20 years ago and have not changed since that time. I certainly think that my expectations are reasonable. They include going 10-6 or better in conference play (protecting the home court and steeling at least a couple each year on the road), winning the non-conference games you are "supposed" to win and steeling a couple of the occasional "high profile" made for TV games, Also, making it to the finals of the SEC Tourney should be a given. I expect to get into the NCAA tourney EVERY season and consistently make the sweet sixteen and be playing on the second weekend of the tourney. If you do these things consistently, you will make the occasional Elite 8. You make enough of the E-8s and you get your trip to the final 4. These have been my expectations for 20 years; however, with Gottfried at the helm, I've learned to expect to be disappointed. So, either I have changed (lowered) my expectations or learned to endure disappointment. It is because I still have high expectations for this program, that I am calling for change.

So, did you spend several years calling for Wimp to be fired as well? His teams didn't meet your demands either. Unfortunately for you, there were no message boards for you to relentlessly drive home your point back then.

 

[Ldlane]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

So, did you spend several years calling for Wimp to be fired as well? His teams didn't meet your demands either. Unfortunately for you, there were no message boards for you to relentlessly drive home your point back then.

I don't think that is fair. CWS achieved with less talent and more "passion". CMG's teams are as emotionless as the hardwood floor in which they play. I bet CWS could take CMG's team and beat him with it!

 

[bamadoc94]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

Don't the repetitive nature of these posts get tiring after awhile? I'm 38, remember CMs teams from my early years vaguely......I remember Anthony Murray, and TR Dunn and Reggie King, and that's about it. I really started to pay attention in the Phillip Lockett, Eddie Adams, Mike Davis, Eddie Phillips, timeline.......Then of course through the Farmer, Gottfried, McKey, Ansley, Coach Sanderson years.

It's not that there is the Pre Hobbs and Post Hobbs fans that split their allegience to Coach Gottfried, its the traditional Half Full/Half Empty fans that split it. Some fans will always support their coach, because he is the coach, and he knows more about his sport than we do. Some fans will always rip their coach after any loss, because they "THINK" they know more about the sport than he does. The majority of the ones that post here are the extremists on each side, a few from the gray middle post as well, but not as many, so you have nothing but extremists posting usually, so you get the obvious separation.

The ones that support their coach are not settling for mediocrity they are supporting their team, their players and their coaches.......until someone smarter than them makes the changes that "they" see fit in making. Until then it's Roll Tide!

Why is it always assumed that a college coach or athletic director automatically "knows more" about their respective sport than any fan could possibly know? Coaching sports is a very difficult way to make a living, unless you are fortunate enough to land a premier job. For every guy that makes it big there are thousands in the high school ranks who struggle to make ends meet. Just because someone chose another profession does not diminish their knowledge of the game. There are probably many people who post on these boards who could have made a career out of coaching but chose to go another direction, this does not mean they don't know the game. Basketball isn't brain surgery, you do not have to play at the highest level to understand how the game should be played, and should be allowed to give criticisms without being told that you are not qualified to make those judgements. As always there will be some less educated fans who spew the usual venom, but most of the criticisms I have seen are quite intelligent and well thought out.
I want to make it clear that I am referring to overall basketball knowledge. None of us could know the ins and outs of a particular squad having not seen them practice, off the court, etc. Also, what exactly is it that makes Mal Moore an expert on the subject of BBall? He is the one who would be making a change.

 

[BamaLaw]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

So, did you spend several years calling for Wimp to be fired as well? His teams didn't meet your demands either. Unfortunately for you, there were no message boards for you to relentlessly drive home your point back then.

Do the math! My expectations were formed 20 years ago in the midst of Wimp's tenure, because of the successes which he brought the program. In 12 seasons he made it to 10 NCAA's and 6 sweet 16s, and as someone mentioned, his teams were exciting and played with emotion. Heck, I think they were scared of him. Don't know why you think that Wimp failed to meet my expectations when in fact it was his success that raised expectations to that level.

 

[CajunCrimson]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

Do the math! My expectations were formed 20 years ago in the midst of Wimp's tenure, because of the successes which he brought the program. In 12 seasons he made it to 10 NCAA's and 6 sweet 16s, and as someone mentioned, his teams were exciting and played with emotion. Heck, I think they were scared of him. Don't know why you think that Wimp failed to meet my expectations when in fact it was his success that raised expectations to that level.

My opinion only, but sometimes, we are stuck with an image of how good something was........I sort of liken it to Mork and Mindy......when I was a kid, I absolutely loved that show.......looking back at it now, it's virtually impossible to watch. I'm not making a direct contrast, but what I'm saying is, is that sometimes when we reach back for memories, we tend to remember the good, and forget the bad. You will still have people on here that claim the Sweet 16 team with McKey, Ansley, Farmer, Gottfried, Conner, Askins and company was the most talented team that we ever had........and they didn't win it all. Some older fans still believe that the Anthony Murray, TR Dunn, Rickey Brown, Reggie King team were the most talented...........while others will claim the Horry, Sprewell, Robinson, Cheatem group was the best.

We've had great teams, many prior to CMG....and NONE of them won the whole thing either.......and NONE of them got even close.......but when we look back at them now, we remember the winning games, the heartbreak losses with a smile....... but the younger fans will remember the Elite 8 run with the same vigor that we remember Cheatems shot hanging on the rim vs Marymount and dream "what if".......

At the time, many fans and media were claiming that Wimp was only good enough to get us to the Sweet 16, that because he didnt' play a long bench, that he never would get us all the way. They said that because he didn't emphasize a true center, that we would never go all the way........ now we look back and think that "only if we still had wimp" we would win the whole thing........but if Wimp had shortcomings then, wouldn't he still have them now?

You found Wimp during a time when you were able to give Alabama Basketball some of your time and your emotion, so you have an emotional tie to it, I get that.........trust me, I do as well........I came up during that same era. I used to imagine being Terry Conner passing to McKey from the baseline....for the scoop and two points at the buzzer, I get it........but, just because it's the basketball YOU hold most dear, doesn't mean it was worthy of Hall of Fame material.

 

[CajunCrimson]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

Why is it always assumed that a college coach or athletic director automatically "knows more" about their respective sport than any fan could possibly know? Coaching sports is a very difficult way to make a living, unless you are fortunate enough to land a premier job. For every guy that makes it big there are thousands in the high school ranks who struggle to make ends meet. Just because someone chose another profession does not diminish their knowledge of the game. There are probably many people who post on these boards who could have made a career out of coaching but chose to go another direction, this does not mean they don't know the game. Basketball isn't brain surgery, you do not have to play at the highest level to understand how the game should be played, and should be allowed to give criticisms without being told that you are not qualified to make those judgements. As always there will be some less educated fans who spew the usual venom, but most of the criticisms I have seen are quite intelligent and well thought out.
I want to make it clear that I am referring to overall basketball knowledge. None of us could know the ins and outs of a particular squad having not seen them practice, off the court, etc. Also, what exactly is it that makes Mal Moore an expert on the subject of BBall? He is the one who would be making a change.

There may be a few on here that could coach........but if you read the majority of the dialogue, there is no way that many (if any) would have the stamina OR the thick skin to coach. Heck, some get P'Od from a Bulletin Board Posting, how would they be able to actually handle game criticism.......the x's and o's is easy to understand, but the peripheral stuff would be a monster that not many want to face.

 

[Ldlane]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

All coaches have shortcomings. There are those of us that feel that C.M. Newton started us up the Hill to building a national program and Coach Sanderson almost got us to the top. CMG was supposed to get us "over the hump" with what was built for him. I just don't see it!

 

[BamaLaw]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

My opinion only, but sometimes, we are stuck with an image of how good something was...........we tend to remember the good, and forget the bad...
We've had great teams, many prior to CMG....and NONE of them won the whole thing either.......and NONE of them got even close.......but when we look back at them now, we remember the winning games, the heartbreak losses with a smile....... but the younger fans will remember the Elite 8 run with the same vigor that we remember Cheatems shot hanging on the rim vs Marymount and dream "what if".......

At the time, many fans and media were claiming that Wimp was only good enough to get us to the Sweet 16, that because he didnt' play a long bench, that he never would get us all the way. They said that because he didn't emphasize a true center, that we would never go all the way........ now we look back and think that "only if we still had wimp" we would win the whole thing........but if Wimp had shortcomings then, wouldn't he still have them now?

You found Wimp during a time when you were able to give Alabama Basketball some of your time and your emotion, so you have an emotional tie to it, I get that.........trust me, I do as well........I came up during that same era. I used to imagine being Terry Conner passing to McKey from the baseline....for the scoop and two points at the buzzer, I get it........but, just because it's the basketball YOU hold most dear, doesn't mean it was worthy of Hall of Fame material.

I didn't make any nominations to the hall of fame. I followed that 87 team to Louisville and watched in agony as Billy "the Kid" Donovan shot lights out basketball that day and took us out of the tourney. I remember the losses as well as the wins, the heartbreaks as well as the highs. However, the fact remains that Wimp consistently (10out of 12 years) put us in the tourney and in half of those tourneys we made the sweet 16. The program consistently reached heights during his tenure that it had never done before and has never done since. Personally, I'd trade Gottfried's one E-8 appearance for consistently getting into the tourney and winning the first game. Heck, we've got to walk before we can run. I'm not looking for Gottfried to win it all. It's obvious that is never going to happen. I'd just like to get into the NCAA tourney consistently. How long are Gottfried and his supporters going to hang their hats on that one season?

 

[OldNavyTider]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

BamaLaw:

I've enjoyed reading your post in this thread. I grew up during the Newton era and was really proud of Bama's basketball achievements during the Sanderson era.

Your critics to your post obviously were never around to see Bama basketball at its best during the Newton and Sanderson days. During those wonderful years it was exciting to sit down and watch a well coached Alabama basketball team go toe to toe against the nations best. Games stick out in my head like the 1st round NCAA tourney win against a great North Carolina team in 1976, and then falling short that same tourney against the eventual national champion Indiana. Beating # 1 Kentucky in 1977. In 1983 Bama traveled out to LA and beat a solid UCLA team in their own building. The SEC Tourney champions that Wimp Sanderson consistently had and the consistent sweet 16 teams.

The now era has no clue at how good Alabama basketball use to be. The program now is a sad shadow of what it use to be.

 

[BAMA1979]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

BamaLaw:

I've enjoyed reading your post in this thread. I grew up during the Newton era and was really proud of Bama's basketball achievements during the Sanderson era.

Your critics to your post obviously were never around to see Bama basketball at its best during the Newton and Sanderson days. During those wonderful years it was exciting to sit down and watch a well coached Alabama basketball team go toe to toe against the nations best. Games stick out in my head like the 1st round NCAA tourney win against a great North Carolina team in 1976, and then falling short that same tourney against the eventual national champion Indiana. Beating # 1 Kentucky in 1977. In 1983 Bama traveled out to LA and beat a solid UCLA team in their own building. The SEC Tourney champions that Wimp Sanderson consistently had and the consistent sweet 16 teams.

The now era has no clue at how good Alabama basketball use to be. The program now is a sad shadow of what it use to be.

Bob Knight still says this Alabama team was by far the best team Indiana played that season.

 

[HendersonKYTide]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

HKT, everything you say is true yet the big picture things you emphasize would make the Alabama basketball program look pretty solid. I guess I, and maybe other critics of Coach Mark, am wallowing in the little things that indicate something less: our alarming lack of competitiveness on the road when we get down, our inability to run our offense in crunch time, the lack of depth in a 10-year old "solid" program has me scratching my head, the continual absence of flexible approach to game strategy (Is going zone on defense our only recourse?), and the, as one poster put it, "just OK" quality to play is wearing on me.

As for perspective, I was in the stands at Coleman Coliseum in 1972 when an Alabama team led by two African-American kids named Wendell Hudson and Raymond Odums beat strong UT and UK squads back to back.

I walked up and down a street in St. Louis with a transistor radio trying to find a clearer signal of the 1976 IU-Alabama NCAA regional semi-final game where undefeated IU, the eventual National Champion, had to play their very best to catch us at the end. I was in the stands in the early 80's when a top - ranked and eventual Final 4 Kentucky team came to Tuscaloosa and couldn't get the ball in against the withering press of a Bama team so thin that Wimp gambled that the TV timeouts would give us just the amount of recovery time to pull it off.

It is more than wins and losses. It is quality, passion, and pride; all those qualities we demand from our football team. We should expect no less from our basketball team. We really shouldn't.

Tidetwin,

I agree with you on expectations. We should expect more on the court. My only problem is with who is to blame for that. The greatest game I have ever seen Alabama play was against Arkansas in the SEC tourney. Great players on both sides of the ball, but the most important thing was the will to win. Wimp did have that will and that excitement. It was more evident by his actions on the court. I do think CMG has that will. I attended Murray State while he was coaching there and had multiple opportunities to speak with him about his playing days with Alabama. CMG puts Wimp right up there with Wooden. His respect and love for Alabama Basketball is second to none. He wants to win! I honestly believe the difference today is the players. Their main goal is to get through college and play in the NBA. That doesn't mean they don't want to win, it just seems like it was more important to players to win a few years ago. Now it's more about putting on a showcase for scouts. We are forced to play younger guys at crunch time now when in Wimps days we would have seasoned veterans out there instead of freshmen and sophomores. I do know that Alabama has had its share of players that played from the day they stepped on campus, but it was not the norm.

As you can tell by my name, I am from KY. I am listening to the same thing about KY this year and they supposedly went out and got the hottest young coach available that does nothing but eat and sleep basketball. They are still asking why the players look so disinterested and not into it. They lost to a team worse than Belmont in their home opener this year. Basketball has changed. I don't think it is the coaches. We no longer see teams of 3, 4, or 5 starting seniors that are dedicated to winning for the university, we now see 5 to 6 guys on the team that want to display their talents for NBA scouts. That can make all the difference during crunch time.

I get mad and yell for CMG to make changes and get the team ready and call timeouts and anything else I can say in front of my 4 year old. I am an avid fan and I agree that the only ranking that matters is at the end of the year. For all that Wimp did, we never saw that high ranking with him. I do think that CMG at least puts the talent on the floor to lead us there.

 

[Tidetwin]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

Great post. Thanks for the thought that went into it.

 

[BamaLaw]

Re: Perception of Gottfried's performance: A matter of perspective

BamaLaw:

I've enjoyed reading your post in this thread. I grew up during the Newton era and was really proud of Bama's basketball achievements during the Sanderson era.

Your critics to your post obviously were never around to see Bama basketball at its best during the Newton and Sanderson days. During those wonderful years it was exciting to sit down and watch a well coached Alabama basketball team go toe to toe against the nations best. Games stick out in my head like the 1st round NCAA tourney win against a great North Carolina team in 1976, and then falling short that same tourney against the eventual national champion Indiana. Beating # 1 Kentucky in 1977. In 1983 Bama traveled out to LA and beat a solid UCLA team in their own building. The SEC Tourney champions that Wimp Sanderson consistently had and the consistent sweet 16 teams.

The now era has no clue at how good Alabama basketball use to be. The program now is a sad shadow of what it use to be.

Thanks for your comments. I recall those games you speak of, as well. I also remember in the 82 tourney when we played a Michael Jordan let UNC team. I was stuck in Reno, NV at the MGM Grand with no TV coverage of the game and no radio. I was a UA student at the time and I ran into a UNC student in the casino. We gave up on seeing the game, but once we knew it was over, we were glued to the TV until we found out a final.

While I did thoroughly enjoy the Sanderson years (who wouldn't have?) and have at times been a guest in his home, I don't, as one has suggested have an emotional attachment to him and I'm not looking to bring him back. I did see during his tenure the kind of team that Bama was capable of putting on the court and I long for that kind of success and reaching even greater heights. Someone has intimated that Wimp's dismissal was related to a lack of success. Most of us know that was not the case; however, many at the time believed that it really had little to do with the unpleasant, but highly publicized incident. Rather, those who believe that, think that his dismissal had more to do with the fact that Bama Basketball was becoming as big as or bigger than Bama Football...and .et's face it, at Bama that just couldn't happen.

 

[teamplayer]

Re: How do you judge CMG?

... and by being willing to change some of his philosophies as needed to match the personnel.

This is a huge problem that I have with CMG. He's been here for ten years; we shouldn't have depth issues or problems with personnel. He should have the personnel he needs/wants to run his system. However, he recruits good athletic players but doesn't let them use their athleticism. We should press, trap, and get up and down the floor if he is going to recruit athletes. If he wants to run his offense, he should recruit guys who really understand basketball, cuts, position, etc. We could have less athletic guys who would probably stay in school for four years and really play team ball. I am willing to watch either style as long as the kids play hard. Right now, it is very difficult to watch us play because we very rarely play with high intensity and effort. When the team plays like they care again, I will actually start to care again. I miss the Bama basketball that I grew up with.

 

[CornBiscuit]

Re: How do you judge CMG?

This is a huge problem that I have with CMG. He's been here for ten years; we shouldn't have depth issues or problems with personnel. He should have the personnel he needs/wants to run his system.

That is a ridiculous statement. It is hard to know of transfers and how recruiting will go. Coach K has been at Duke for 72 years and has had a ton of depth issues the past few years. It happens, and you can't predict the future as a coach.

 

[teamplayer]

Re: How do you judge CMG?

That is a ridiculous statement. It is hard to know of transfers and how recruiting will go. Coach K has been at Duke for 72 years and has had a ton of depth issues the past few years. It happens, and you can't predict the future as a coach.

PLease don't compare DMG to CK. Depth issues do happen from time to time because of unusual circumstances beyond a coach's control; however, we always seem to have that problem. The only thing that is ridiculous is that we have the same problems over and over and expect them to change without doing anything different.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: How do you judge CMG?

That is a ridiculous statement. It is hard to know of transfers and how recruiting will go. Coach K has been at Duke for 72 years and has had a ton of depth issues the past few years. It happens, and you can't predict the future as a coach.

Coach K seems to handle the depth problem, for the entire three quarters century you indicate, whereas we always work our way down to seven guys who rotate until they drop. And I'll second that we seem to recruit athletic guys who are then pressed into an offense which would be better served by Vandy's personnel (whom I fear are going to stomp our tail). I come back to the same point - after nine years, going on ten, you have a very good benchmark for what a coach is going to do and how he's going to perform from now on. How you come down on this should be based on how you regard those nine years. If you're satisfied, then our dialog really is going nowhere and it's no wonder that these threads keep proliferating. If you buy into the annual disaster story routine we go through, and you think that we grab the brass ring the next season, then I'd have to think you're delusional. CMG's record is "respectable." I, for one, am not satisfied with that...