Curve balls and 12 yr olds...

TRUTIDE

All-SEC
Oct 14, 1999
1,502
0
0
Spanish Fort, AL
What do you guys think about 12 yr oldes throwing curve/breaking balls. In watching the Little Leaqgue World Series last year and the Little League Regionals this year, there seems a lot of wrist twisting in these games. I've coached youth ball for some time now and also coach more competitive travel ball. We mix it up with change ups with all of our pitchers but do not mess with the breaking stuff.

I hear so much talk about Little wanting to save arms but every pitcher I've seen throws some type of breaking pitch. Should Little League be allowing this? Especially to a national television audience.
 

NYBamaFan

Suspended
Feb 2, 2002
23,316
14
0
Blairstown, NJ
What do you guys think about 12 yr oldes throwing curve/breaking balls. In watching the Little Leaqgue World Series last year and the Little League Regionals this year, there seems a lot of wrist twisting in these games. I've coached youth ball for some time now and also coach more competitive travel ball. We mix it up with change ups with all of our pitchers but do not mess with the breaking stuff.

I hear so much talk about Little wanting to save arms but every pitcher I've seen throws some type of breaking pitch. Should Little League be allowing this? Especially to a national television audience.
I have heard both sides. Is there compelling evidence that throwing a curveball at age 12 harms the pitchers? If so, the next question has to be the risk vs. reward. I am for protecting kids, but let's be sure that we are protecting them from real risks if we go so far as to create rules banning pitches...
 

TRUTIDE

All-SEC
Oct 14, 1999
1,502
0
0
Spanish Fort, AL
I have heard both sides. Is there compelling evidence that throwing a curveball at age 12 harms the pitchers? If so, the next question has to be the risk vs. reward. I am for protecting kids, but let's be sure that we are protecting them from real risks if we go so far as to create rules banning pitches...
Certainly there is ample evidence against kids throwing curveballs especially at 14 and under. I cannot provide links right now but I know it is frowned upon by many profesional athletes and I know many orthopedic surgeons that can go into detail about the undue stress it can cause on the elbow. The 4 or so Highschool coaches I know preach against it as well. They want the kids to be available for them when they reach that age. We do not play Litle League. We play Cal Ripken baseball and I know Cal Ripken has discouraged it.

A lot also has to do with the proper ways to throw certain breaking pitches. ie There is an overhand curveball that will break down instead of from side to side that uses a more natural throwing motion. My own experience is that once a kid starts cutting the ball they try harder and harder to get more and more break on the ball. We throw a lot of change ups and 2 seam/4 seam fastballs with some natural movement that have been effective enough to change the batters timing. I also try to hit spots and utilize the entire strike zone.

I see these kids in the LLWS cutting the ball every other pitch and some are striking out 13 or 14 batters a game. Is this what it takes to advance to the LLWS? I know my 11u's have faced many curveball pitchers and we have been able to adjust fairly well. We ill only strike out once or twice a game if that.
 
Mar 12, 2003
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Talladega, AL.
www.line-man.com
You will be amazed at how many muscles you use to throw a curveball. I have seen many kids blow their elbows and shoulers out doing this. I myself have screwed up my elbow by throwing too many breaking balls at just age 16. IMO the only pitches they need to be learning are 2 and 4 seem fastballs and a changeup. My preference is the circle change.

I REFUSE to watch this little league crap on t.v. All they do is throw junk. I cant stand it.
 

bamajake

1st Team
Sep 27, 2001
691
1
37
Tuscaloosa, Alabama, USA
From the Commissioner's Point of Emphasis, Page 19, 2006 Official Rules of Dixie Youth Baseball:

"A 2002 study by the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) showed that youth baseball pitchers who throw curveballs or sliders have an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Therefore, youth pitchers should avoid throwing breaking pitches in order to reduce the risk of future overuse injuries. Youth pitchers should develop proper mechanics as early as possible and include more year-round physical conditioning as their body develops. Muscles, tendons, and ligaments need time to 'cool down' after physical activity, just like they need to 'warm up' before activity."

Four paragraphs later:

"According to American Baseball Foundation board president and renowned orthopedic surgeon, James R. Andrews, 'The best pitchers in the country never make it to the majors because they're the ones in youth leagues and high school who are overused. We're seeing more injuries now because these kids are having more pressure to throw at higher velocities. They're throwing more sliders, more stress pitches. But the crux of the problem is we don't have enough quality pitchers to go around (in the majors) because the good quality pitchers are being hurt in the youth leagues.'" [Emphasis in original.]


I have not seen a rule book this year from Little League, Babe Ruth, Cal Ripken, Dizzy Dean, Pony or any other youth organization but I would not be suprised if each organization has something similar to that in the Dixie Youth Rule Book.

If James Andrews says that "stress" pitches create a risk of injury, that is a good indication that they do. However, no organization that I am aware of has enacted an outright ban on curves, sliders or any other pitch for that matter (except the beanball). I do not expect that any organization will do so either. First, the players, coaches and parents want to be able to throw them, even if they are dangerous. Second, how do you police it? While many umpires can tell the difference between a curve and a changeup, many cannot. Those umpires think anything that is not straight is a "curve." To ask those guys to tell the difference and enforce a ban would be asking too much. Likewise, league officials or anyone else watching from behind the backstop can't tell the difference in many cases. Quite frankly, it would probably be an unenforceable rule.

As an umpire with many years experience, I have personally seen kids who were outstanding pitchers when they were 11 or 12 who couldn't hold the ball up to the plate by the time they got to high school because they destroyed their elbows or shoulders (or both) by throwing too many breaking pitches. The simple truth is that it is left up to the coaches, the parents of individual players and the players themselves to limit the number of curves that they throw. As long as a scoreboard is used, I do not expect to see any significant changes.
 
Mar 12, 2003
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Talladega, AL.
www.line-man.com
Too many coaches would rather win than worry about a kids arm. That's why I dont bother with youth league baseball anymore. I'll stick to junior varsity and varsity h.s. ball. I like to win like the next guy/gal does but I'm not risking a kids arm to do it. My nephew pitches at times and he asked me once to show him how to throw a curve. Safe to say he understood the threat fully. Told him I'd break his arm myself if I caught him even trying to throw one then I understood why I felt that way.

Bamajake youre right, if an ump has never been around pitching enough to read the seems, etc. there is NO WAY we could expect them to enforce anything. It's not their job anyways IMO. Most youth coaches need to grow a pair and stop this crap.
 

crimsonkelly

All-American
Feb 2, 2002
2,941
70
172
Thomasville, GA, USA
I coach middle school baseball in South Georgia and happen to call the pitches for our team. I will allow my pitchers to mix in a curveball or slider about 1 in 12-15 pitches. We concentrate on spotting the fastballs (2 and 4 seam) and locating the change-up. After all we feel pitching is about location not complete deception. Besides, a well located pitch is tough to hit, it has to be identified then hit where it is pitched, where as a curveball and/or slider is identified then either hit the other way or up the middle depending on side of the arm of pitcher is throwing and side of plate hitter is hitting from.

All in all I would rather have a location pitcher. A la greg maddux.

CK
 

Play Ball!

1st Team
Oct 11, 2001
332
0
0
Birmingham
Fastballs and a good change-up with good location will get most hitters out well into college.
I knew a kid who was unhittable up until he was around 14, played all spring and summer, played fall ball and did some travel ball. Because he threw too many curveballs and didn't take care of his arm properly the only positions he could play into high school were 2nd and 1st. He could hardly turn a double play from 2nd his arm was so weak.
 

bamanut_aj

Hall of Fame
Jul 31, 2000
20,058
83
167
52
Spring Hill, TN
I'd like to do some research into the Cal Ripken League and see if there are rules against it. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow, since I gots no J.O.B.
 

Ldlane

Hall of Fame
Nov 26, 2002
14,249
398
202
When I played Dixie Youth ball in Selma it was frowned upon back then. I think a fastball is good enough while players are getting down the basics of control and hitting.
 

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