Discussion of Offensive Design

[JustNeedMe81]

I don't want to celebrate Locksley's success right now because we are only 3 games into the season. We have few games we need to worry about before we can assess Locksley's performance. TAMU, LSU, Auburn. But right now, I'm very pleased with how he is using the personnel on the team. We're targeting TEs more, spreading the ball around. If we can find somewhat consistency with our running game and it will be there... Whew....

FYI... I expect Locksley to be here next year... because as long he has Tua... it'll look good for his resume.

 

[Blueguitar]

i don't have any background, but we ran a vicious screen/swing pass to jacobs out of the backfield with a handoff faked to damien. i love seeing two backs on the field at once.

That is one innovation I love, especially with all the backfield talent we have. Also, one thing I'm happy we have gotten away from is the jet sweep. JS was ok when we didn't have a starting QB with a reliable arm, but with Tua starting and Jalen seeming to pass better, we have better ways of using our WRs as weapons.

That being said, I bet we see a little JS in one of our key games just to keep the defense off guard. I could especially see Waddle ripping off a big play on a sweep.

 

[92tide]

That is one innovation I love, especially with all the backfield talent we have. Also, one thing I'm happy we have gotten away from is the jet sweep. JS was ok when we didn't have a starting QB with a reliable arm, but with Tua starting and Jalen seeming to pass better, we have better ways of using our WRs as weapons.

That being said, I bet we see a little JS in one of our key games just to keep the defense off guard. I could especially see Waddle ripping off a big play on a sweep.

i've been expecting to see a jet sweep at some point. waddle is a freak show with the ball in his hands

 

[KrAzY3]

This just isn't true.

To reiterate, Daboll did not know how to use Hurts, he wouldn't have needed outside help if he did! You can tell me what Hurts is bad at, I know what Hurts is bad at, and Daboll didn't know how to cope with it.

Also comparing his rating this year to last year against Ole Miss is misleading, because the turnover is the only reason the rating is close. That's what people wanted him to do by the way right? For Hurts to take more risks...

 

[Tideflyer]

i've been expecting to see a jet sweep at some point. waddle is a freak show with the ball in his hands

Sure! IMHO, with Waddle and others, removing the jet sweep entirely would be a mistake.

 

[BAMAVILLE]

Jalen even looks better in Locksley's offense than he did in Daboll's. That could be coupled with the fact Bama has a separate QB coach as well.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I think thats been huge for all the QBs development, especially Jalen.

I agree Locksley's been a solid job with the O. Going to be interested in seeing his approach against a more defensive-minded team.

 

[BAMAVILLE]

That is one innovation I love, especially with all the backfield talent we have. Also, one thing I'm happy we have gotten away from is the jet sweep. JS was ok when we didn't have a starting QB with a reliable arm, but with Tua starting and Jalen seeming to pass better, we have better ways of using our WRs as weapons.

That being said, I bet we see a little JS in one of our key games just to keep the defense off guard. I could especially see Waddle ripping off a big play on a sweep.

I think we still have the JS in tow, we ran several plays in the last game with a man in motion similar to the jet sweep as misdirection. So won't be surprised if it pops up sometime soon.

 

[gtgilbert]

It's like you didn't read what I wrote. You illustrated round hole square peg to refute what I said...

To reiterate, Daboll did not know how to use Hurts, he wouldn't have needed outside help if he did! You can tell me what Hurts is bad at, I know what Hurts is bad at, and Daboll didn't know how to cope with it.

If you're going to quote me, quote the entire thing. I'll say it again though: Daboll did everything he could to simplify the read package for Jalen. Jalen just couldn't execute. Daboll didn't draw up more downfield passes at all. He had plays with a lot of short passes WIDE OPEN, but Jalen wouldn't throw it. The design was there with seam routes, inside curls, short seams and crossing routes. Those routes were also there 6-7 times against Ole miss last weekend when Jalen didn't throw the to open receivers in the short zones (seriously we are talking in the 5-10 yard range) who were wide open. Jalen, for whatever reason, doesn't see those guys or doesn't pull the trigger or whatever. Daboll kept RPOs in the playbook which should be a dual threat QBs strength, but jalen would too often keep the ball instead of making the RB handoff, and then not make the right read on the pass option to make the throw and then run himself. Look at Tua's pass completion chart and see how many of those are short, quick read throws. Those were ALL there for Jalen also.

Now if you are talking about the jet sweeps and stuff like that, the reason those came out is that they stopped working. Even Kiffin had pulled those plays out of the playbook the year before - the reason why the jet sweeps stopped working is because the defense could key on those and dare Jalen to throw something else, knowing he would have a hard time executing it. Same with the bubble screens - the DBs wouldn't even play the option of the receivers going downfield since the threat of Jalen making the second read there was so small.

look at it another way. last years teams had SIX NFL caliber receivers (possibly 4 first rounders), and an NFL caliber TE all in the playing rotation. Daboll designed a system with significantly simplified reads, in many cases ONE read, with only having to read HALF the field, with the first option being short to get that talent the ball, and Jalen just couldn't do it. It often looked like Daboll was only drawing up long passes simply because jalen wouldn't throw to the underneath stuff and have to resort to either a downfield pass or running it himself.

Short of switching to the wishbone, Notre dame box, wing T, veer or triple option, and having all those talented WRs leave the team, there's not much else Daboll could have done to try to make it work. Even then, who knows if that'd work because of Jalen's track record in keeping the ball to often on RPO instead of giving it to the RB.

If not those types of offenses, what would you suggest?

 

[KrAzY3]

If you're going to quote me, quote the entire thing. I'll say it again though: Daboll did everything he could to simplify the read package for Jalen.

I will not, and never have quoted entire posts, mine are long enough without clogging things up further. Having said that, I will reiterate that Daboll needed help! Locksley had to do the option stuff, if Daboll was such a master and doing everything possible to put Hurts in a position to succeed, then explain to me why Daboll couldn't do the option stuff?

It isn't that I think Daboll is necessarily a bad coordinator, though I'll point out his Bills now have the second worst scoring offense in the NFL while Alabama is the top scoring offense in college football, but anyone who thinks his use of Hurts was the best possible is ignoring reality. You can go on and on about what Hurts can't do, but Daboll didn't know how to use the option! He was a pro guy, an emergency hire, who didn't know anything about the college game.

Now, let's look at numbers since you brought them up before:
Through three games last year (which was actually a pretty good stretch for him) Hurts passed 56 times, ran 36 times and threw for 4 TDs.
Through three games this year, including a really rough opener, he has passed 28 times, ran 12, and thrown for 4 TDs.

His run % went down from 40 to 30, and his TD to pass ratio doubled! Not only that, but he managed this without Daboll's reliance on the deep ball (something that was known and Jesse posted about before Daboll started at Alabama). Here's his longs in the first 3 games from last year and then this year: 53, 23, 78 and 27, 30, 22.

So... Locksley is excelling while Daboll is struggling. Hurts is running less, passing more, throwing TDs more often without being forced into relying on the deep ball (a weakness for him). That's what the numbers say, and it makes sense. Daboll is an NFL guy that basically only knows how to use one style offense, Locksley is a college guy who knows how to deal with college kids. I see a difference on the field, I see a difference in the numbers.

Edit: I will add that I'm happy with how things turned out, but that includes Daboll being in the NFL (though he was a good fit for Tua's abilities).

 

[JustNeedMe81]

If you're going to quote me, quote the entire thing. I'll say it again though: Daboll did everything he could to simplify the read package for Jalen. Jalen just couldn't execute. Daboll didn't draw up more downfield passes at all. He had plays with a lot of short passes WIDE OPEN, but Jalen wouldn't throw it. The design was there with seam routes, inside curls, short seams and crossing routes. Those routes were also there 6-7 times against Ole miss last weekend when Jalen didn't throw the to open receivers in the short zones (seriously we are talking in the 5-10 yard range) who were wide open. Jalen, for whatever reason, doesn't see those guys or doesn't pull the trigger or whatever. Daboll kept RPOs in the playbook which should be a dual threat QBs strength, but jalen would too often keep the ball instead of making the RB handoff, and then not make the right read on the pass option to make the throw and then run himself. Look at Tua's pass completion chart and see how many of those are short, quick read throws. Those were ALL there for Jalen also.

Now if you are talking about the jet sweeps and stuff like that, the reason those came out is that they stopped working. Even Kiffin had pulled those plays out of the playbook the year before - the reason why the jet sweeps stopped working is because the defense could key on those and dare Jalen to throw something else, knowing he would have a hard time executing it. Same with the bubble screens - the DBs wouldn't even play the option of the receivers going downfield since the threat of Jalen making the second read there was so small.

look at it another way. last years teams had SIX NFL caliber receivers (possibly 4 first rounders), and an NFL caliber TE all in the playing rotation. Daboll designed a system with significantly simplified reads, in many cases ONE read, with only having to read HALF the field, with the first option being short to get that talent the ball, and Jalen just couldn't do it. It often looked like Daboll was only drawing up long passes simply because jalen wouldn't throw to the underneath stuff and have to resort to either a downfield pass or running it himself.

Short of switching to the wishbone, Notre dame box, wing T, veer or triple option, and having all those talented WRs leave the team, there's not much else Daboll could have done to try to make it work. Even then, who knows if that'd work because of Jalen's track record in keeping the ball to often on RPO instead of giving it to the RB.

If not those types of offenses, what would you suggest?

You definitely don't have the whole story....

Here's some quick cliff notes:
-Daboll didn't develop game plan for Jalen... Locksley did.
-Daboll didn't want Hurt... he didn't even try and develop Jalen. he was a NFL coach. he wasn't a good fit for Hurt.. but perfect for Tua.
-Kiffin did good job with Jalen, using his strength.. but he didn't develop Hurt.

Daboll had an opportunity to make effort to work with Hurt...

 

[RTR91]

Just what we all want and need - another thread to rehash Jalen's shortcomings...

 

[JustNeedMe81]

Just what we all want and need - another thread to rehash Jalen's shortcomings...

I just burst out laughing.

 

[CaliforniaTide]

i've been expecting to see a jet sweep at some point. waddle is a freak show with the ball in his hands

There were WRs in the OM game that started running across the formation pre-snap like a jet sweep but went around behind the QB every time. I seriously doubt they've taken the play out of the playbook.

 

[gtgilbert]

I will not, and never have quoted entire posts, mine are long enough without clogging things up further. Having said that, I will reiterate that Daboll needed help! Locksley had to do the option stuff, if Daboll was such a master and doing everything possible to put Hurts in a position to succeed, then explain to me why Daboll couldn't do the option stuff?

It isn't that I think Daboll is necessarily a bad coordinator, though I'll point out his Bills now have the second worst scoring offense in the NFL while Alabama is the top scoring offense in college football, but anyone who thinks his use of Hurts was the best possible is ignoring reality. You can go on and on about what Hurts can't do, but Daboll didn't know how to use the option! He was a pro guy, an emergency hire, who didn't know anything about the college game.

Now, let's look at numbers since you brought them up before:
Through three games last year (which was actually a pretty good stretch for him) Hurts passed 56 times, ran 36 times and threw for 4 TDs.
Through three games this year, including a really rough opener, he has passed 28 times, ran 12, and thrown for 4 TDs.

His run % went down from 40 to 30, and his TD to pass ratio doubled! Not only that, but he managed this without Daboll's reliance on the deep ball (something that was known and Jesse posted about before Daboll started at Alabama). Here's his longs in the first 3 games from last year and then this year: 53, 23, 78 and 27, 30, 22.

So... Locksley is excelling while Daboll is struggling. Hurts is running less, passing more, throwing TDs more often without being forced into relying on the deep ball (a weakness for him). That's what the numbers say, and it makes sense. Daboll is an NFL guy that basically only knows how to use one style offense, Locksley is a college guy who knows how to deal with college kids. I see a difference on the field, I see a difference in the numbers.

Edit: I will add that I'm happy with how things turned out, but that includes Daboll being in the NFL (though he was a good fit for Tua's abilities).

so exactly what are these strengths of Jalen's that we should have built the offense around?

RPO?

only works when the pass is truly an option, which unfortunately it wasn't really. Otherwise it's just an option, but that still requires making a fast read. Plus, that's not what Jalen came to bama for. he came here to try turn himself into a pro-style QB. That's also not really what is best for the entire team, since we recruited and built our talent on a variation of spread / pro-style offense.

jet sweeps?

stopped working about 2/3rds through 2016 since defenses could sell out to stop the edge play.

Short passing game?

Keep in mind that in the 3rd quarter against UGA with Daboll calling the plays, Tua had completions that traveled past the LOS (rough numbers) 5, 12, 0, 14, 14, 4, 1 (54 total yards gained including YAC and one of the 14 yard passes was on record as approx 5 as it was a TD). In the 4th the completions hit the receivers 1, -2, -5, 20, 10 and 10 past the LOS (total of 71 yards gained due to YAC and - yards past goal line). There was no reliance on the long ball. The only long completion was the final pass. Point being that it's a myth that Daboll relied heavily on the long ball at Alabama, despite what he might have done in the pro ranks. Of Tua's 23 throws in regulation only 2 or 3 of them would have been for longer than 20 yards in the air past the LOS had they been caught. The rest were all short routes with a couple of intermediate throws. Those same shorter routes and passes were being called all year, and in the first half against UGA, but the ball was not getting out there. jalen just doesn't throw those routes consistently, so he ends up with long balls as the only option left other than running.

So we've got a QB who:
1. likely has the arm strength the short passes, but for some reason does not make the throws,
2. has an arm plenty strong for the long ball, but not really the accuracy and placement
3. has a track record of not consistently making the right reads on RPO for both the give to the RB and then the pass part of the 'option'

resulting in defenses stacked up against us to stop jet sweeps, bubble screens and the run game.

what other play calls and offensive design could we try?

I've seen the implied notion that Daboll didn't develop Hurts, but honestly do we really know if it was that Daboll didn't try or that Jalen just didn't/couldn't make the step forward? The reality is that while Jalen's mechanics are better this year, if you watch the tape he is still not making consistent reads on the short and intermediate routes in time. Just watch the Unofficial assistant / john Doe's video on the Ole miss game. It's the same missed reads and routes as last year and his play recognition has not really improved much. Should we assume that means Enos and Locksley are not developing Jalen? Or should we guess that maybe jalen just doesn't have "it" yet, whatever the combination of field vision, decision making, and play design knowledge makes "it" for a college level QB. Even last year Jalen's arm strength was better than, let's say Blake Sims (although Sims had a really pretty long ball), but Sims was able to make the really fast reads to get the ball out fast - Sims had "it". Jalen is making some progress to stay in the pocket, but he's also under ZERO pressure in the last two games. There's no consequence to a bad play now. That situation might just be the best thing for his development and why he seems to be ok losing his possible redshirt this year to get those reps and maybe that will help him find "it".

on topic - I like locksley and think that so far we've seen some very good work from him although I think the real test will come later against LSU/Auburn/playoffs. I'd also say that he looks really good with Tua in there, but so did Daboll.

About the only thing I'd like to see is a bit more run game early as I think we'll need that balance later in the season. even though we look balanced top down now, a lot of the runs are after we've called off the dogs and are burning clock.

 

[92tide]

There were WRs in the OM game that started running across the formation pre-snap like a jet sweep but went around behind the QB every time. I seriously doubt they've taken the play out of the playbook.

yeah, i noticed that. the ole miss game was the first i was able to actually watch this season. so aside from some of the highlight reels from the first two games, this was all new to me

 

[Bodhisattva]

yeah, i noticed that. the ole miss game was the first i was able to actually watch this season. so aside from some of the highlight reels from the first two games, this was all new to me

So, you're new here?

 

[KrAzY3]

so exactly what are these strengths of Jalen's that we should have built the offense around?

This is basically a rhetorical question, since your posts are essentially an attempt to say he has none. Yet, Kiffin took a true freshman quarterback, and put up more yards, more PPG, while playing a tougher schedule, with Cooper Bateman (one TD pass) as the backup for most the season, and he went AWOL at the end there. There's no way on earth I can conclude that Daboll used Hurts better than Kiffin did (his issue was he didn't necessarily develop QBs, he used them). When Kiffin was present and accounted for, Hurts had a lousy game against LSU, but otherwise he and/or the offense was actually quite productive, that productivity did not end until Kiffin's focus ended.

That latter part speaks to a major aspect of dealing with college kids, which is something you seem to be omitting. The job of a college coach is not merely to draw up plays a hypothetical player can execute, it is to draw up plays a college kid can execute. You have to cover for their weaknesses, you have to understand most of these guys won't be professionals, so it is about far more than drawing up a play that has an open man. Alabama has a guy who can't kick extra points, a punter who averages 35 yards, I saw one team that had a different QB for third downs. Welcome to college football, where your job is to get the most out of these kids.

Kiffin, after the LSU debacle dominated the competition. Blew out Miss. State, Auburn, and Florida, and if he'd showed up to the Washington game there would have been more of the same. Still a blowout, but less offense than there would have been if he'd just been calling, you know, real plays. So you can fixate on missed reads all you want, but I have hard evidence that one guy got more out of the offense than the other did with the same QB.

Now, this leads us to what one of the problems was. Daboll had no idea what to do with Hurts. Now your counter will be but but but but Hurts has deficiencies. I know. He also has 44 passing touchdowns and over 5,000 passing yards, to go along with the W/L record we all know about, which is a fairly impressive job of falling up the stairs if you ask me. So, Daboll a pro style guy who ran from the college game like he was on fire, couldn't manage the option elements of the offense. He couldn't really manage Hurts at all, so what happened is Locksley brought in the option stuff and planned for Hurts, he has to hand this over to Daboll and then Daboll has to try to execute it. There's bound to be things lost in translation. That's far from an ideal scenario, and it showed on the field. Daboll didn't know how to hold a college guy's hand, he didn't understand or master the intricacies of those things, one could argue he has the least control over the offensive group of any offensive coordinator Nick Saban has had. It wasn't his play calling that was the issue so much as he simply didn't know how to deal with these kids and keep them in the right place mentally. That's part of the job.

So, we have solid proof Kiffin's offense was more productive. We have solid proof that Daboll either didn't know how to deal with Hurts or just didn't care. And you'll counter with missed reads, and my contention remains, as it did early last season, you have to do more hand holding. You force Hurts hands, like I said then, to throw more and run less. You also do things like build his confidence up, draw up plays for that sake, etc... I'm not going to sit here and diagram plays, that's not my job, but Daboll from the mid-season on didn't show any real signs of bringing Hurts along, which once again makes sense considering he also didn't even know how to manage Hurts or option stuff. It was as I said before round hole square peg.

That brings us to present day. I was happy with the idea of Daboll staying for one reason and one reason only. Daboll knows the pro style offense with a downfield passing attack, and if there's ever been an Alabama QB proficient at that, it's Tua. So, despite being a bad fit for the QB situation most of the year, he was a good fit for Tua's skillset. Locksley, someone who was more competent in dealing with Hurts (that's fact, not debatable given that Daboll couldn't do that job) doesn't have the experience with a Patriots level offense. However, as I'm witnessing now, I believe Locksley's overall competence in the college game is proving to be more than enough to make up for that. He's a college guy, he knows the game, and as of right now he has both quarterbacks looking more productive. Of course we could see regression or weaknesses in Locksley's playcalling, but things are on track right now. Seems like a good situation to me, and of course Enos deserves some credit, but if Locksley keeps this up there won't be anything to discuss in regards to Daboll and Locksley later in the year.

We can go back and forth but the season will tell the story...

 

[mlh]

...He couldn't really manage Hurts at all, so what happened is Locksley brought in the option stuff and planned for Hurts, he has to hand this over to Daboll and then Daboll has to try to execute it. There's bound to be things lost in translation. That's far from an ideal scenario, and it showed on the field....

And yet we still won the National Championship. That's pretty darn amazing.

 

[BamaInBham]

...He's a college guy, he knows the game, and as of right now he has both quarterbacks looking more productive. Of course we could see regression or weaknesses in Locksley's play-calling, but things are on track right now. Seems like a good situation to me, and of course Enos deserves significant credit, but if Locksley keeps this up there won't be anything to discuss in regards to Daboll and Locksley later in the year.

We can go back and forth but the season will tell the story...

FIFY.

IMO, Enos deserves a great deal of credit for Jalen's improvement - and I am one who thinks Jalen has improved, including reading the field, staying in the pocket, pulling the trigger, etc. The last TD pass to Jeudy vs OM would have NEVER been thrown last year, as well as likely neither TD vs Ark St. Not only Enos' skill, which seems tremendous, but simply the fact that the QBs have a dedicated QB coach has helped. Locksley seems to be doing a great job of calling plays and of overall coordination of the offense, but IMO, that is not the primary source of Jalen's progress, it's his mindset and technique that have improved, not so much the plays. Being relieved of the pressure of not being the starter has probably been a contributor too. Don't want to forget Gattis' overall contribution as co-offensive coordinator and maybe "passing game" coordinator and WR coach. Though passing game coordinator is not in his title, that is what he did at PSU. Just guessing that is his focus at Bama. Though the primary credit goes to the players - their attitude and blood and sweat.