Elementary school students coached to compare Robert E. Lee to Hilter

TideEngineer08

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Yup, Hitler was a horrific mass murdered. Lee was a simple misguided traitor.
I don't believe he was misguided at all. By some definitions, you may call him a traitor. By some definitions, I can call Lincoln a traitor as well. I choose not to, despite my disagreement with him.

But the thread topic is exactly what I was speaking about a few weeks ago when all of this Confederate flag business started building up. These people will not be satisfied until the South's history is branded the same as Nazi Germany's. Nevermind the South's wasn't the only region of the country that had slavery.
 

TideEngineer08

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If we take this movement to, at least what appears to be its logical conclusion, what are we to do with folks that led the founding of this country? Folks such as George Washington who owned slaves. Hell, what are we to with the American flag itself? With Mt. Rushmore? The Washington Monument? Should we tear it all down? Should we rename all streets, bridges, buildings, cities, schools?

These are honest questions. Why can we not accept that there are bad things about our history, South and North, and USA alike, but there are also really great things and that we should acknowledge all of it, learn from the bad and celebrate the good? Oh, because there is nothing good about the South's history?
 

GreatDanish

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If we take this movement to, at least what appears to be its logical conclusion, what are we to do with folks that led the founding of this country? Folks such as George Washington who owned slaves. Hell, what are we to with the American flag itself? With Mt. Rushmore? The Washington Monument? Should we tear it all down? Should we rename all streets, bridges, buildings, cities, schools?

These are honest questions. Why can we not accept that there are bad things about our history, South and North, and USA alike, but there are also really great things and that we should acknowledge all of it, learn from the bad and celebrate the good? Oh, because there is nothing good about the South's history?
We have to learn how to be offended. Seriously, "how to be offended" should be a skill taught in schools.

I won't post it because it has some questionable words... But, Steve Hughes, a comedian, did a bit on being offended. As he says, "So what? Be offended. Nothing happens. ... 'I want to live in a democracy but I don't want to be offended,' Well then you're an idiot."
 

cbi1972

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If we take this movement to, at least what appears to be its logical conclusion, what are we to do with folks that led the founding of this country? Folks such as George Washington who owned slaves. Hell, what are we to with the American flag itself? With Mt. Rushmore? The Washington Monument? Should we tear it all down? Should we rename all streets, bridges, buildings, cities, schools?

These are honest questions. Why can we not accept that there are bad things about our history, South and North, and USA alike, but there are also really great things and that we should acknowledge all of it, learn from the bad and celebrate the good? Oh, because there is nothing good about the South's history?
The stupid thing is that Lee was not even one of the bad things about our history, and these dummies have the gall to compare him to HITLER. They should tattoo IGNORAMUS across their faces.
 

Tidewater

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In Lexington, Virginia, after the war, Rev. Jones saw Lee chatting with a stranger, and related this story to John Esten Cooke:
One day last autumn the writer saw General Lee standing at his gate, talking pleasantly to an humbly-clad man, who seemed very much pleased at the cordial courtesy of the great chieftain, and turned off, evidently delighted, as we came up. After exchanging salutations, the general said, pointing to the retreating form, 'That is one of our old soldiers, who is in necessitous circumstances.' I took it for granted that it was some veteran Confederate, when the noble-hearted chieftain quietly added, 'He fought on the other side, but we must not think of that.' I afterward ascertained--not from General Lee, for he never alluded to his charities--that he had not only spoken kindly to this 'old soldier' who had 'fought on the other side,' but had sent him on his way rejoicing in a liberal contribution to his necessities.
A Life of Gen. Robert E. Lee by John Esten Cooke.
 

dvldog

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In Lexington, Virginia, after the war, Rev. Jones saw Lee chatting with a stranger, and related this story to John Esten Cooke:
A Life of Gen. Robert E. Lee by John Esten Cooke.
They don't make them like that any more. We like to think that we have progressed. I have my doubts though certainly Lee was exceptional even in his own time. IMHO.
 

Bamaro

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We have to learn how to be offended. Seriously, "how to be offended" should be a skill taught in schools.

I won't post it because it has some questionable words... But, Steve Hughes, a comedian, did a bit on being offended. As he says, "So what? Be offended. Nothing happens. ... 'I want to live in a democracy but I don't want to be offended,' Well then you're an idiot."
The offended occupy both sides of the discussion.
 

cbi1972

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In Lexington, Virginia, after the war, Rev. Jones saw Lee chatting with a stranger, and related this story to John Esten Cooke:
A Life of Gen. Robert E. Lee by John Esten Cooke.
People don't realize that he was in the US army 32 years, and in the Confederate army for 4.

He distinguished himself in the Mexican-American war, working alongside Grant. Both men participated in a march from Veracruz to Mexico City.
 

Tidewater

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The offended occupy both sides of the discussion.
The key point is that humans (including humans from the past) are imperfect beings. They do good and they do bad.
We remember them, generally, for the good they do.
If someone points out that MLK was a philandering plagiarist, I would say, "Ultimately, that doesn't matter. That is not why we celebrate his memory." We honor his memory because of the "I Have a Dream" speech, because of the Selma March, because of his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail," etc. When someone points out his failings, we should weigh them in the balance with his achievements, and if the latter outweigh the former (which, in MLK's case, they do), then he should be remembered fondly.
And nobody celebrates Abraham Lincoln because he undermined the Constitution or suppressed democracy in eleven states, but because he was a great orator and did what he could to stop the spread of slavery and he kept the Union together. (In my view, the Union of these states is a morally ambivalent concept). While I believe it is worth bearing in mind that what he did was not exactly democratic, and he was not exactly scrupulous in his regard for the provisions of the Constitution, I also understand that those who honor his memory do because of his virtues, and despite his failings.
I would just like the same consideration for men like Lee. He was a great soldier guided by a tremendous sense of duty (just because you do not believe in the sovereignty of the peoples of the state does not means he did not believe in it), a gentleman (in the best sense of that term), a leader in post-war reconciliation.
When you come in here throwing around the word "traitor," I see two things. First, it is decidedly ungenerous. Second, you have a lot to learn about the history of your country.
 

TideEngineer08

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The key point is that humans (including humans from the past) are imperfect beings. They do good and they do bad.
We remember them, generally, for the good they do.
If someone points out that MLK was a philandering plagiarist, I would say, "Ultimately, that doesn't matter. That is not why we celebrate his memory." We honor his memory because of the "I Have a Dream" speech, because of the Selma March, because of his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail," etc. When someone points out his failings, we should weigh them in the balance with his achievements, and if the latter outweigh the former (which, in MLK's case, they do), then he should be remembered fondly.
And nobody celebrates Abraham Lincoln because he undermined the Constitution or suppressed democracy in eleven states, but because he was a great orator and did what he could to stop the spread of slavery and he kept the Union together. (In my view, the Union of these states is a morally ambivalent concept). While I believe it is worth bearing in mind that what he did was not exactly democratic, and he was not exactly scrupulous in his regard for the provisions of the Constitution, I also understand that those who honor his memory do because of his virtues, and despite his failings.
I would just like the same consideration for men like Lee. He was a great soldier guided by a tremendous sense of duty (just because you do not believe in the sovereignty of the peoples of the state does not means he did not believe in it), a gentleman (in the best sense of that term), a leader in post-war reconciliation.
When you come in here throwing around the word "traitor," I see two things. First, it is decidedly ungenerous. Second, you have a lot to learn about the history of your country.
*LIKE* and *THANKS*

A fantastic post.
 

mittman

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The key point is that humans (including humans from the past) are imperfect beings. They do good and they do bad.
We remember them, generally, for the good they do.
If someone points out that MLK was a philandering plagiarist, I would say, "Ultimately, that doesn't matter. That is not why we celebrate his memory." We honor his memory because of the "I Have a Dream" speech, because of the Selma March, because of his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail," etc. When someone points out his failings, we should weigh them in the balance with his achievements, and if the latter outweigh the former (which, in MLK's case, they do), then he should be remembered fondly.
And nobody celebrates Abraham Lincoln because he undermined the Constitution or suppressed democracy in eleven states, but because he was a great orator and did what he could to stop the spread of slavery and he kept the Union together. (In my view, the Union of these states is a morally ambivalent concept). While I believe it is worth bearing in mind that what he did was not exactly democratic, and he was not exactly scrupulous in his regard for the provisions of the Constitution, I also understand that those who honor his memory do because of his virtues, and despite his failings.
I would just like the same consideration for men like Lee. He was a great soldier guided by a tremendous sense of duty (just because you do not believe in the sovereignty of the peoples of the state does not means he did not believe in it), a gentleman (in the best sense of that term), a leader in post-war reconciliation.
When you come in here throwing around the word "traitor," I see two things. First, it is decidedly ungenerous. Second, you have a lot to learn about the history of your country.
*thanks*

Thus my disappointment with the whole discussion, not specifically this forum, but as a national meme (for lack of a better term).

You made the point much more eloquently that I am capable.
 

RammerJammer14

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This country would be a better place if more people were like General Lee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Go Bama

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The key point is that humans (including humans from the past) are imperfect beings. They do good and they do bad.
We remember them, generally, for the good they do.
If someone points out that MLK was a philandering plagiarist, I would say, "Ultimately, that doesn't matter. That is not why we celebrate his memory." We honor his memory because of the "I Have a Dream" speech, because of the Selma March, because of his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail," etc. When someone points out his failings, we should weigh them in the balance with his achievements, and if the latter outweigh the former (which, in MLK's case, they do), then he should be remembered fondly.
And nobody celebrates Abraham Lincoln because he undermined the Constitution or suppressed democracy in eleven states, but because he was a great orator and did what he could to stop the spread of slavery and he kept the Union together. (In my view, the Union of these states is a morally ambivalent concept). While I believe it is worth bearing in mind that what he did was not exactly democratic, and he was not exactly scrupulous in his regard for the provisions of the Constitution, I also understand that those who honor his memory do because of his virtues, and despite his failings.
I would just like the same consideration for men like Lee. He was a great soldier guided by a tremendous sense of duty (just because you do not believe in the sovereignty of the peoples of the state does not means he did not believe in it), a gentleman (in the best sense of that term), a leader in post-war reconciliation.
When you come in here throwing around the word "traitor," I see two things. First, it is decidedly ungenerous. Second, you have a lot to learn about the history of your country.
Wow! Very profound. Thanks and big like.
 

Tidewater

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People don't realize that he was in the US army 32 years, and in the Confederate army for 4.

He distinguished himself in the Mexican-American war, working alongside Grant. Both men participated in a march from Veracruz to Mexico City.
One of my favorite Lee anecdotes. Lee always appreciated the generous terms Grant had given him and his men at Appomattox.
After Appomattox, when Robert E. Lee was President of Washington College, a professor derided Grant harshly in (Lee's) presence. In swift indigation Lee thundered: "Sir, if ever I hear you speak again in my presence disrespectfully of General Grant, either you or I will sever his connection with this institution."
Harry Emerson Fosdick, The Meaning of Service, pg. 105.
 

CullmanTide

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I am no sycophantic defender of Lincoln, but IMO this is almost as egregious a statement as the one being discussed. I believe there is ample evidence that both Lee and Lincoln were honorable men at their core.
My response was intentionally crude and over the top. Lincoln was responsible for hundreds of thousands of American deaths because of his actions. As President, he was a complete failure.