Four Bama football players arrested, are dismissed from team

[CrimsonSEC]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

I guess I am having a real hard time getting worked up about this. No coach, no matter how discipline minded he is, well get everyone in line. These guys screwed up. They've been suspended. They'll probably be kicked off the team once the matter is fully fleshed out. What's the big deal?

You're right. It's not something for us fan to sweat too much. But we're on the peak of the hill and everyone is looking to find a chink in the armor to jab a dagger in. In short time, somebody else in major sports will screw up in a major way and we can go back to thinking about 3 in a row and say to ourselves, wow, look at the headroom we have now in getting to 85.

 

[RollTide1224]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

Earle: I suspect that Coach Saban will hold himself "accountable" because he is the man in charge, not because he himself is at fault. He isn't; assuming the facts are as they seem to be, the players are at fault. What I expect will happen is that he and the staff will review the interactions they had with these soon-to-be-ex-players to see if there were any signs they missed so they can apply them in the future. That's not fault, that's leadership, and Coach Saban is definitely a leader.

Great post. I think this is what the accountability folks are really looking for. I trust that Saban realizes that incidents like this can't happen in the future and he's gonna do everything that he can to make sure they don't happen again.

I can understand in some way the accountability folks since Saban is responsible for these guys being on campus, but with an incident like this (to compare to negligence in tort cases) there is an issue with proximate cause. Yes the players wouldn't have been here for this to happen without Saban, but no there was no way that he can prevent kids from doing something as stupid as this. All that he can do is review the process that he has for selecting kids and potentially try to figure out what went wrong with these guys whether it was drugs or negative influences hanging around the program.

As I said earlier and many others have said I'm confident this embarrasses him far more than it embarrasses us because these are his guys, and as a result he will do everything in his power to make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[JPT4Bama]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested - was progress of Eddie Williams & B. Callowa

I agree with everything that you said. And as I have said ad nauseam, THE BLAME clearly is placed on these 4 adult men. But I still think CNS should be made to account on what if anything that he knew about the character of these men. Had anything changed while at the university especially with Eddie Williams. If it did, what were they doing about it? Like I said, he is the general and these were four of his "soldiers". and it was a very violent attack. I would expect CNS to address this in a press conference. I would certainly expect this as a parent of one of these students and I would expect it as the President of the University.

I'm sorry but could you repeat this post another 100 times so maybe we thickheaded Bama fans will finally get it?
Either that or finish up your report and head back to ITAT with the results. :smile:

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

Great post. I think this is what the accountability folks are really looking for. I trust that Saban realizes that incidents like this can't happen in the future and he's gonna do everything that he can to make sure they don't happen again.

I can understand in some way the accountability folks since Saban is responsible for these guys being on campus, but with an incident like this (to compare to negligence in tort cases) there is an issue with proximate cause. Yes the players wouldn't have been here for this to happen without Saban, but no there was no way that he can prevent kids from doing something as stupid as this. All that he can do is review the process that he has for selecting kids and potentially try to figure out what went wrong with these guys whether it was drugs or negative influences hanging around the program.

As I said earlier and many others have said I'm confident this embarrasses him far more than it embarrasses us because these are his guys, and as a result he will do everything in his power to make sure this doesn't happen again.

LOL! Back to law school and proximate cause vs. "but for." What I can't seem to get them to tell me, either on the forum or off, is exactly WHAT he's supposed to be doing that he's not doing and which makes them unhappy. So far, no coherent answer, so I'm still at sea as to what's making them so miserable. Not to get too far into legal jargon, but it seems to me that what they're arguing for is not accountability but "strict liability." IOW, the kid screws up, so Saban is automatically liable and should be punished. I've asked them what that punishment should be - crickets. One of the damndest string of posts I think I've seen on Tidefans...

 

[CrimsonSEC]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested - was progress of Eddie Williams & B. Callowa

I'm sorry but could you repeat this post maybe 100 times so maybe we thickheaded Bama fans will finally get it? Either that or finish up your report and head back to ITAT with the results. :smile:

Deep, deep, deep, undercover.

 

[CrimsonSEC]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

LOL! Back to law school and proximate cause vs. "but for." What I can't seem to get them to tell me, either on the forum or off, is exactly WHAT he's supposed to be doing that he's not doing and which makes them unhappy. So far, no coherent answer, so I'm still at sea as to what's making them so miserable. Not to get too far into legal jargon, but it seems to me that what they're arguing for is not accountability but "strict liability." IOW, the kid screws up, so Saban is automatically liable and should be punished. I've asked them what that punishment should be - crickets. One of the damndest string of posts I think I've seen on Tidefans...

Iran's infiltrated methinks.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

I guess I am having a real hard time getting worked up about this. No coach, no matter how discipline minded he is, well get everyone in line. These guys screwed up. They've been suspended. They'll probably be kicked off the team once the matter is fully fleshed out. What's the big deal?

You tell me. Or, really, see if you can get them to tell you in some cogent fashion what more can be done at this point...

 

[TideMan09]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

LOL! Back to law school and proximate cause vs. "but for." What I can't seem to get them to tell me, either on the forum or off, is exactly what he's supposed to be doing that he's not doing and which makes them unhappy. So far, no coherent answer, so I'm still at sea as to what's making them so miserable...

Exactly.The coaches can't be with the players 24/7..When the players aren't round the coaches..They're responsible for their own actions..When I'm off work..If I go out & beat someone up..And then rob them..Should my boss be accountable for my action..Of course not..I'm solely responsible for my action..

 

[RollTide1224]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

LOL! Back to law school and proximate cause vs. "but for." What I can't seem to get them to tell me, either on the forum or off, is exactly WHAT he's supposed to be doing that he's not doing and which makes them unhappy. So far, no coherent answer, so I'm still at sea as to what's making them so miserable. Not to get too far into legal jargon, but it seems to me that what they're arguing for is not accountability but "strict liability." IOW, the kid screws up, so Saban is automatically liable and should be punished. I've asked them what that punishment should be - crickets. One of the damndest string of posts I think I've seen on Tidefans...

I think the brutality of the events combined with the absence of these things over the last few years just has people searching for answers. Sadly, in this situation I just don't think there really are very good answers.

Hopefully Coach as well as the players on the team can learn from the mistakes these guys made and use it for positive in the future. Maybe Saban sees that there was a problem in the way he evaluated these guys and can do better in the future (who knows if that's the case or not) and the players should certainly realize how fleeting the privileges that they have can be.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

Yeah. I banned myself from the basketball forums because I'm not in a good way with our program right now. Hah

You've not been that big of a problem. I wish some others would ban themselves. The problem over there is that the game thread rules are not being followed. Most people don't want to be interrupted while discussing a bad call with someone who only wants to talk about firing the head coach ad infinitum. That needs to be stated in a separate thread, and there's plenty of opportunity for it. That's the whole concept of having a game thread. If you can't keep the agenda out of a game thread, I greatly appreciate your cooperation and I wish it were more general...

 

[CrimsonSEC]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

I think the brutality of the events combined with the absence of these things over the last few years just has people searching for answers. Sadly, in this situation I just don't think there really are very good answers.

Hopefully Coach as well as the players on the team can learn from the mistakes these guys made and use it for positive in the future. Maybe Saban sees that there was a problem in the way he evaluated these guys and can do better in the future (who knows if that's the case or not) and the players should certainly realize how fleeting the privileges that they have can be.

I wish I could agree, but AFAIK Saban is the best judge of talent and character in recruiting these days and if he didn't see it coming, the generation gap is the Grand Canyon.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

I think the brutality of the events combined with the absence of these things over the last few years just has people searching for answers. Sadly, in this situation I just don't think there really are very good answers.

Hopefully Coach as well as the players on the team can learn from the mistakes these guys made and use it for positive in the future. Maybe Saban sees that there was a problem in the way he evaluated these guys and can do better in the future (who knows if that's the case or not) and the players should certainly realize how fleeting the privileges that they have can be.

Part of the problem is that a certain amount of this kind of trouble just can't be anticipated. Saban is no oracle. Given his record he's done very, very well, indeed. By all accounts, Williams is probably the central figure in this string of events. Everything I've heard so far is that everyone who's been connected with him back to HS is thoroughly shocked. That's not necessarily true of some of the others. Anyway, I've had enough of generalities about "accountability." I want people holding that view to tell me in concrete terms what he should have done in the past and didn't and what he's supposed to be doing now that he isn't. So far, all I see is people dodging the question...

 

[RJ YellowHammer]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

Part of the problem is that a certain amount of this kind of trouble just can't be anticipated. Saban is no oracle. Given his record he's done very, very well, indeed. By all accounts, Williams is probably the central figure in this string of events. Everything I've heard so far is that everyone who's been connected with him back to HS is thoroughly shocked. That's not necessarily true of some of the others. Anyway, I've had enough of generalities about "accountability." I want people holding that view to tell me in concrete terms what he should have done in the past and didn't and what he's supposed to be doing now that he isn't. So far, all I see is people dodging the question...

That's what I want!!!

CNS hasn't presided over a string of discipline problems. If you assemble enough people, bad eggs are going to turn up. Are we going to hold the head coach accountable for four players felonious actions? If so, what should "accountability" mean?

I could understand being upset with CNS if these acts were symptomatic, but nothing indicates there is a wide spread discipline problem on the Alabama Football team.

 

[bamaltc]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

You tell me. Or, really, see if you can get them to tell you in some cogent fashion what more can be done at this point...

They can't .... What if someone tried to say that God was accountable for men's sin. That would be absurd. He set the standard, communicated the standard, and left it up to men to follow the standard. That's the model for organizations of every kind. The executive sets the standard, communicates the standard, and people in the organization choose to follow the standard. Don't follow it and you get fired! For some organizations, that might cause the executive to raise the bar and tighten the standard, which is what CNS did when he arrived--he raised the standard and there was dramatic improvement compared to previous years. That's the difference from one football program to another--each executive sets different standards. No matter what standards an executive sets, one can never fix or eliminate stupidity. Stupidity never negates the standard, but will most always violate it. It's very sad, but that's what we're dealing with in this situation.

 

[Perrett4Bama]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

Part of the problem is that a certain amount of this kind of trouble just can't be anticipated. Saban is no oracle. Given his record he's done very, very well, indeed. By all accounts, Williams is probably the central figure in this string of events. Everything I've heard so far is that everyone who's been connected with him back to HS is thoroughly shocked. That's not necessarily true of some of the others. Anyway, I've had enough of generalities about "accountability." I want people holding that view to tell me in concrete terms what he should have done in the past and didn't and what he's supposed to be doing now that he isn't. So far, all I see is people dodging the question...

Please notice where I am from.....let me just say that I am NOT shocked. I was excited when Eddie committed to Bama but I will have to admit that I was nervous. Most of the locals, some that have had very close dealings with
Eddie, said he would not last one year. When the news broke my phone was blowing up with "I told you so's". Eddie has the ability to be the best player to ever come out of Bay County, but he made his on bed......now he must sleep in it.

 

[KrAzY3]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

You tell me. Or, really, see if you can get them to tell you in some cogent fashion what more can be done at this point...

People keep forgetting about the constant attempts to strip coaches of leverage. For the past several years the constant stream of nonsense has been that once you offer a scholarship to a player, you can't retract that offer, and once they are on scholarship, as long as he's physically capable of performing, follows team rules, and keeps his grades up, we're told he's supposed to stay on scholarship.

So, if a player is offered and commits, even if Nick Saban sees some warning signs he's supposed to stick with the kid, or else he's crucified in the media. Even if he knows the player isn't giving his best effort, even if he knows the player is headed down the wrong path, as long as he follows rules, Saban is supposed to be stuck with him. If a player is with the team, even if Nick Saban sees that he's a bad influence, and sees character issues, he's not supposed to pull their scholarship. We simply can't have it both ways.

Either we expect this unconditionally standing by players, which all this over-signing, four year scholarship, grayshirting, and such talk is about, or we do away with all that and put all the power in the coaches hands. If the coach isn't limited, if his hand isn't forced, only then can we actually enabled the coach to act to prevent this sort of thing. Otherwise, he's doing it despite the restrictions. Mind you, Saban had done a wonderful job, but we shouldn't pretend like there are not constant attempts to tie his hands.

Based on what I'm hearing, it seems fairly likely that not all four of these players would have made it through to fall practice. Furthermore, if we weren't in the era of 85 scholarships, signing limits, four year scholarships and such, it's possible some of them wouldn't be with the team at all at this point. If the coach actually could just run the team how he wanted, rather than running it how other people decide he can.

So, the truth is this could work to the benefit of Nick Saban and Alabama. It weeds out a few bad apples, and it gives him some more leverage. While I doubt the media will learn the lesson, the next time a player is "processed", may be we give Saban the benefit of a doubt, huh?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

Please notice where I am from.....let me just say that I am NOT shocked. I was excited when Eddie committed to Bama but I will have to admit that I was nervous. Most of the locals, some that have had very close dealings with
Eddie, said he would not last one year. When the news broke my phone was blowing up with "I told you so's". Eddie has the ability to be the best player to ever come out of Bay County, but he made his on bed......now he must sleep in it.

I appreciate the insight. Unfortunately, coaches don't really have access to that kind of information. They would have to have a platoon of PIs to gain that depth of information. Once again, I'd point back to CNS's record of avoiding trouble with kids, some of them prone to trouble. I don't envy his position and I don't think his critics could do as well...

 

[Perrett4Bama]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

I appreciate the insight. Unfortunately, coaches don't really have access to that kind of information. They would have to have a platoon of PIs to gain that depth of information. Once again, I'd point back to CNS's record of avoiding trouble with kids, some of them prone to trouble. I don't envy his position and I don't think his critics could do as well...

Amen to that.

 

[Clubfitter]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

I guess I am having a real hard time getting worked up about this. No coach, no matter how discipline minded he is, well get everyone in line. These guys screwed up. They've been suspended. They'll probably be kicked off the team once the matter is fully fleshed out. What's the big deal?

I would like to echo your post. I will be glad when this all blows over, and it will. Our Mods have much more patience than I do. Thanks guys for keeping this civil. Like in golf, sometimes you hit a good shot and get a bad break. Sometimes you hit a bad shot and get a good break. Where ever the ball goes you have to play it where it lies. In this case we need to punch the ball out in the fairway and play for a bogey or get an up and down. We'll get an eagle on the next hole. We have had a lot more eagles than we have bogeys in the last few years. It's great to be a Bama fan. I'm proud of where our program is now. We have the best leader in the business. In my best Forrest Gump imitation, "That's all I got to say about that". RTR.

 

[im4uainva]

Re: Four Bama football players arrested...

Please notice where I am from.....let me just say that I am NOT shocked. I was excited when Eddie committed to Bama but I will have to admit that I was nervous. Most of the locals, some that have had very close dealings with
Eddie, said he would not last one year. When the news broke my phone was blowing up with "I told you so's". Eddie has the ability to be the best player to ever come out of Bay County, but he made his on bed......now he must sleep in it.

Wow! This is the first I've seen of this. Have I been missing something about EW that everyone else knew? I may not follow recruiting as well as most of you, but this revelation shocks me. Especially with such high praise being voiced by his HS coach. Maybe his HS coach should be held accountable (JK).