He's Back! He's Back!

Twelve2one!

Banned
Sep 28, 2000
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Southern, Alabama
Well Bob I see our old friend Gandalf has made a return. I could not help but notice how simular his discription is to how Jesus is described in the book of Revelation.

I see many parallels between JRRTs writings and the Bible.

Anyway, I found it interesting that Gandalfs ability to see things is somehow limited. Is it limited by a higher power or is he limiting himself?
Aragorn and the others have just found out that the legend of Treebeard is true.

I'll keep you posted.

P.S. - Was Tolkien considered an eccentric by critics. Usually someone with his genius is a little different mentally. I would say he would at least be considered obsessive by our modern day standards.
 
How do you mean, 12-1? Has this board talked about the history of the writting? I think he was in the foreign dipomatic branch of the Soviet military. Probably couldn't display too much eccentricity.
 
To me, Gandalf at this point has been tranfigured, appearing as the white wizard, just as Jesus was transfigured.

Scroll down and somewhere find a thread that I started regarding the Christian aspects of LOTR.

I am reading Tolkien's official biography now, and what is remarkable is how unremarkable he was, except in his mental capacities.

I'll post more on this later. So far, I have seen just about every aspect of The Hobbit and LOTR in his personal history. It is remarkable.

Thanks for keeping this topic alive.

RTF!
 
CHF, I don't know where you got that idea, but I don't think there is any truth in it. JRRT was an Englishman and as far as I know, was never in any foreign service. I don't see how he could have represented the Soviet Uninion in any capacity, considering his nationality.

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
Twelve, as to being different, I think JRRT was certainly considered very different from the guy on the street; but in his small group of Oxford companions, he probably did not stick out very much! Consider C.S. Lewis and his fanciful writing! Those two, along with a few others, met regularly to discuss the progress of their writing and to talk about imaginative fiction in general.

Did you have any premonition that Gandalf would come back into the story? Were you as lifted by his reappearance as I was (as I am every time I read it)?

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
My mistaken memory. I thought Tolkien was Russian. I don't know either where I got that idea. The only thing I can say is that it's been a long time since I read the books. But I'm looking forward to seeing the movie. There was a cartoon version a long time ago.
 
CHf, Tolkien's ancestors were German, I believe, but they had been in England for several generations.

He was so thoroughly English, to the bone, that it was almost scary. He hated France and the French. I could almost believe that Sauron was French!

And he did lead a very mundane, ordinary, life, except for his mental life and his association with some of the best writers and scholars of his day.

Twelve, everytime you post, I wish that I could be reading LOTR for the very first time, and experiencing the joy that you are experiencing. When Bob gave you the hint before about Gandalf's return, I wondered if you understood what he was referring to. Now, I think you didn't.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 
I didn't realize my memory had taken such leave. I thought the Trilogy was written in a series of letters to his son, serving with a military dipomatic mission, in South America during WW II.
 
I was very saddened that Gandalf had met his very brave end. He was a hero in every sense of the word. He reminds me of an old loving uncle that you care for deeply. Because he sees you as you really are. Even when that is not always good. But you always feel that you are safe when he is around.

But no I did not see him returning. But i'm so very glad he is back.
I will be sad when i'm through with this series. Kind of like eating your very favorite dessert slowly to enjoy every morsel.
It's a work that is so rich with description that it defies explanation when I try to desribe it to others.

Thanks guys for sharing this with me. It means a lot to be able to share thoughts and ideas with people who enjoy superb writing at it's best.
 
Twelve, you last post gave me chillbumps and brought quick tears to my eyes, which I am still blinking away!

I have read this trilogy at least eight times (twice aloud), and I am always sorry to come to the end of it. The only book I can recall that affected me that way, so that I kept checking the pages to see how many I had left, was To Kill a Mockingbird.

There has been some good discussion on Christian themes in this work, and I enjoy them, too. But some things about it are truly timeless: and one of those things is the strength of character of the principal actors. Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir (you don't know him yet, Twelve. Boromir's brother) Frodo, Sam...virtually every character that we admire here displays traits that are universally recognized as praiseworthy: loyalty, truthfulness; bravery; compassion.

In a modern society where role models are so few, and where any flaw in a nationally recognized figure becomes headlines in the gossip rags, it is such joy to find a place to go where a person can discover: "this is the way a person should act to be considered a good friend, a loyal companion, and a leader of men".

Stay in touch. We are all reliving our first discovery of these wonderful books through you!

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Twelve2one!:

Anyway, I found it interesting that Gandalfs ability to see things is somehow limited. Is it limited by a higher power or is he limiting himself?
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There are some things that Gandalf cannot see because it is not within his power to see them. Even the Valar are limited in their ability to see the future: "...for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store..." But Gandalf is also confused by the experience he has undergone.

Gandalf is a Maia, pure spirits who are servants of the Valar. "With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the world, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar and their servants and helpers."

In The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter v, Frodo and Faramir are talking about Gandalf: 'Mithrander we called him in elf-fashion,' said faramir , 'and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrander among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, In the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.'

Olórin is mentioned in the Valaquenta of The Silmarillion: "Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin...In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows..."

He is mentioned again in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age : "Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Círdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds...Chief among them were those whom the elves called Mithrander and Curunir, but men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman..."

In LOTR Gandalf says "...Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered on roads that I will not tell.

Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done..."

Gandalf died in the flesh (as an incarnate being) but as a spirit he could not die. After a spirit's incarnate form is destroyed (dies) it takes some time for the spirit to become incarnate again, depending on the power of the spirit. As a Maia (a lesser power) Gandalf is given help ("...I was sent back...") and enhanced power, as Gandalf the White, no longer as Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf's help most likely came from the Valar because Eru/Ilúvatar rarely acted directly on Eä and this was easily within the power of the Valar. The fact that he was "helped" to become an incarnate form again so much more quickly than he could have on his own could also account for his confusion.

Gandalf's presence is needed quickly to foil Sauron's quest for control of Arda.

Sauron is now gathering power to become incarnate again, but his task has been more difficult because he put so much of his strength and will into the One Ring. From The Silmarillion:

"...In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labors and he was aware of all they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

"Now the Elves made many rings; but secretely Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."

Sauron needs the power he passed into the One Ring to be able to become an incarnate being again. That is one reason it must be destroyed.
 
Twelve, Tosk is illuminating, in his usual scholarly fashion, the events you are reading in the basic story. JRRT was an Oxford Don, a very scholarly man, and his interest and expertise was in ancient languages and the ancient tales in which those languages were preserved.

The story of the One Ring of Power and Three-fingered Frodo is itself contained in the Red Book of Westmarch, composed in most part by Bilbo Baggins.

Tosk is filling in history (very ancient history) concerning the origin of elves and of Gandalf and, of course, Sauron and the Great Rings of Power. This history is contained in the appendices to LOTR (at the end of the third book) and it another book called The Silmarillion which chronicles the beginnings of the Elves: their creation, the migration of some of them to Middle Earth, and many more wonders.

The Silmarillion is not a tale so much as it is a history. It does not read easily or draw a person along like LOTR, but to JRRT it was as necessary as the story of Frodo, because the characters who form the Fellowship, and those who support them and oppose them, had to have their roots in the past to make them real.

Thus it is that we gradually discover that Strider, a rough-clad Ranger, has a history and lineage that stretches back to the earlier war between the elves and Sauron, when the Ring was lost; and that his lineage bestows upon him the throne of Gondor itself.

From Sam's earliest awestruck meeting with the elves in the Shire, we gradually become aware of their ancient roots, their power and their longevity; and of their sad hour of departure that is coming.

I think I remember you using the word "rich" in describing these books. I couldn't agree more. Their richness derives from the infinite care that Mr. Tolkein used in creating them, so that they are not merely characters in a story, but living people with many other rich and interesting stories beneath them; hinted at, but untold.

It is that richness which draws us back, time and time again, to read and enjoy the feast Mr. Tolkein so carefully and lovingly prepared for us.

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
I liken it to building structures of many sorts. Some writers just throw up a tent in any old haphazzard(sp?) way. May take only a couple hours.
Others build an old fishing or hunting camp. May take a couple weeks. It's functional and rustic and homey. But not especially well built for it will not stand the test of time. For the the weather will eventually take its toll.
Next come the houses. They are well consructed. And they will last many many years. The people who live in them love them. Maybe even a few people ride by and admire them from a distance. Takes 3-6 months.
BUT, they are not CASTLES! Castles are structures that take many years even decades to build. It's a painstakingly slow process. For time is not an issue when you're building something so majestic. From the foundation to the most intricate inscribing on the tinyest window seal. There can be no deadline on perfection. But after it is complete, it is there for people to take in like a fine wine. It's ageless and timeless. As visitors come by the thousands and drift through room after room. Each room being distinct from the other. But just as much a part of the total structure as the other. Each room is exquisite in beauty. So much so that it takes your breath away and it's attention to detail is indescribable.
You find yourself wondering.......Who? Who? could have designed such a magnificent fortress such as this? What did they have to forfeit personally to give themselves to this great work?
That's how I feel about Tolkien. That is the essence of Tolkien to me.
Sadly, in the fast paced world we live in today, I wonder if there could ever be another work that could rival this one. There are way to many tent builders and not enough castle builders.
 
That was a 'well-constructed' metaphor, Twelve, and not only beautifully written, but full of truth.

Still, I have to mention that I have a close friend who chided me when I made a similar remark to the one with which you ended your comments.

I was finishing the last book of a series (20 in all) by Patrick O'Brian about the English Navy in the Napoleonic Wars, and I lamented that I doubted that I would ever find a body of work again in my lifetime that so captivated me; or that was so well and deeply fashioned.

He scoffed at me and, though he loves the O'Brian novels as much as I do (or at least nearly so), assured me that the world is FULL of great books just waiting to be discovered!

Of course you are right. There are many tent-builders and few true stonemasons. But stonemasons are out there...

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
Being limited on my reading of truly great Literature I must confess Bob that my view is a bit shortsighted.

I shouldn't sell the present and future imaginations short.

My point was that, are there others out there who would be willing to give themselves up to a project of that magnitude without concern of a financial return for maybe years?

I seriously doubt it in this day of deadlines.
 
On that count you may be correct, Twelve. We live in the world of instant gratification, after all.

To give him credit, though; the producer/director of LOTR was willing to spend the time and money to do that project right...he didn't skimp or hurry. And he's being rewarded for his courage.

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
Bob, interesting your mentioning Faramir. Tolkien says that there were several characters that "appeared" in LOTR without his bidding. Faramir is one of them.

At the beginning, he was writing a sequel to The Hobbit, as a children's book. He had already done much of the work on The Silmarilion, and wanted badly to have it accepted by a publisher, but nobody was interested.

He wrote the first chapter of LOTR, with little idea of where he was going. If you remember, the first chapter has much in common, in tone, with The Hobbit. Then, suddenly, the black rider appeared, unbidden by Tolkien. That gave him the idea that the ring was a much more serious business than he (Tolkien) had at first appreciated. The book gradually changes tone, and becomes much more high-minded. Then Tolkien tried to get The Silmarilion published by packaging it with LOTR.

Later, Tolkien comments that Faramir also appears unbidden by him. He is a hero to replace the dead Boromir, apparently.

RTF!
 
No, I didn't know that at all. I guess I'm going to have to get the biography before the next movie comes out.

What is the title and author?

I have always admired Faramir. He seems like Aragorn on a more human scale to me. His actions are a model of how a soldier, a man, or a loyal son should strive to behave.

I think Faramir is the creation of a more capable Tolkein, a Tolkein grown up (or at least growing up). Unlike most of the other characters in LOTR, he is portrayed in relationships with his father and with his lover; something avoided for the most part with Aragorn and totally missing in Gandalf, Frodo, Legolas, Gimli, and almost everybody else.

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
Tolkien:A Biography, by Humphrey Carpenter.

BTW, I am reading now a biography of Emily Dickinson. I know that it is something that most people wouldn't be interested in, but the writing is so incredibly wonderful that it is breathtaking.

I'll try to post some examples later.

You all know that I am a connoiseur of beautiful prose, as well as of imaginative poetry. This book is simply top-notch in its prose, as well as top-notch in its scholarship.

RTF!
 
Didn't Emily Dickenson make her home in Concord, Mass? I seem to remember that from a visit I made twenty or thirty years ago. And there were two more famous writers/poets who lived there at the same time.

Refresh my memory, LTBF!!

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ALABAMA : Tradition ; Class ; A name to respect in College Football
 
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