How Did We Get Here, and What Do We Do Now?

[DzynKingRTR]

Her all but calling Biden a racist in that 2019 debate should have ended any hope for her on the ticket. The fact it didn’t tells you all you need to know about what a weak person Biden is.

How great would it have been if there had been a Democrat primary and Biden didn't endorse Harris?

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Excellent points... Add to that splitting the Dems into two factions with a very ugly and ruinous feud if they had picked someone else.

I don't know if that would have happened in 2020.
MAYBE.

I don't know.

They desperately wanted Trump gone, so they were pragmatic enough to nominate Biden. But at the same time, he really blew it. To tie down support he made a promise he never should have made: "I'm going to pick a woman running mate."

And then when the country erupted in protests, fires, riots, and the very same people saying "six feet apart" excusing protests "because this is important," he was basically forced to choose between Harris, Susan Rice, Karen Bass, or Stacey Abrams. I still surmise Klobuchar was his choice, but after the killing of George Floyd, there's no chance he could choose the former prosecutor in MSP.

I give Biden a pass only on the point that very few nominees ever pick the "best qualified" person to succeed them. But most at least pick someone minimally qualified, even if the only qualification is "can give a pretty sounding speech."

 

[arthurdawg]

I don't know if that would have happened in 2020.
MAYBE.

I don't know.

They desperately wanted Trump gone, so they were pragmatic enough to nominate Biden. But at the same time, he really blew it. To tie down support he made a promise he never should have made: "I'm going to pick a woman running mate."

And then when the country erupted in protests, fires, riots, and the very same people saying "six feet apart" excusing protests "because this is important," he was basically forced to choose between Harris, Susan Rice, Karen Bass, or Stacey Abrams. I still surmise Klobuchar was his choice, but after the killing of George Floyd, there's no chance he could choose the former prosecutor in MSP.

I give Biden a pass only on the point that very few nominees ever pick the "best qualified" person to succeed them. But most at least pick someone minimally qualified, even if the only qualification is "can give a pretty sounding speech."

Yes... Even then it was a compromised decision... But if would have been civil war in the party if they had "trumped" Kamala! ha!

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Yes... Even then it was a compromised decision... But if would have been civil war in the party if they had "trumped" Kamala! ha!

In 1984, the pro-life contingent at the Dallas convention wanted to push Reagan into a more public embrace of the movement. Some of their leaders met with the subordinates, who wouldn't make any commitment for several reasons, including the fact it was political dynamite in a year they couldn't possibly lose otherwise, the fact Reagan - more than any President at the time - had embraced the movement, and the fact they were already being saddled with the excesses of the movement (during one debate, Mondale snorted that a woman would have to appear before a judge picked by Jerry Falwell to get approval for an abortion). When the meeting was over, someone who remained in the room said afterwards what happened. One of the guys asked what exactly they were going to get Reagan to do, and one of the other guys said, "Nothing. F them. They're not voting for Mondale. We know it, and they know it. We don't have to give them a damn thing."

And that right there is how the entire "let's replace the guy who is going to lose" scenario should have worked. Obama was the one politically smart person in the room: she can't win, but we can soothe most of the anger with a better candidate so long as the running mate is black. Remember, Biden did choose a black running mate AND appointed a black woman to the Supreme Court. This SAME failure has permeated Democratic politics ever since Mondale wouldn't tell Jesse Jackson to go smoke a stick of dynamite in 1984. That press conference where he stood behind Jesse looking like a beaten puppy while Jackson REFUSED to use the word "endorse," Dukakis not telling him to take a hike, sealed the public fate of both of those men as weaklings. "If you can't stand up to a preacher in your own party, how in the hell can you deal with the Soviets" is not a bad question for a nonpartisan voter to wonder.

But ultimately, Biden committed a political own goal and then asked the party to get the points back.

 

[Tidewater]

Her all but calling Biden a racist in that 2019 debate should have ended any hope for her on the ticket. The fact it didn’t tells you all you need to know about what a weak person Biden is.

In 2020, Joe Biden explicitly said he was going to nominate a black woman. He chose between Karen Bass and Kamala.
In 2024, Joe Biden was so late in the cycle opting out, it had to be Kamala or all the Biden-Harris money could not be applied to the Democratic candidate. If they had gone with someone else, they would have had to start fundraising all over. In July.
Biden should have announced in 2022 that he was not running. "I set out to defeat Trump, and we did defeat him. Now, I'm clearing the way for a younger Democrat chosen by the party rank and file."

 

[DzynKingRTR]

In 2020, Joe Biden explicitly said he was going to nominate a black woman. He chose between Karen Bass and Kamala.
In 2024, Joe Biden was so late in the cycle opting out, it had to be Kamala or all the Biden-Harris money could not be applied to the Democratic candidate. If they had gone with someone else, they would have had to start fundraising all over. In July.
Biden should have announced in 2022 that he was not running. "I set out to defeat Trump, and we did defeat him. Now, I'm clearing the way for a younger Democrat chosen by the party rank and file."

Didn't Biden initially say he would only be a one term guy? Memory is failing me. but I vaguely remember this

 

[Tidewater]

Didn't Biden initially say he would only be a one term guy? Memory is failing me. but I vaguely remember this

I vaguely recall the same thing. Not sure though.
Once you get into office, though, there are always people to whisper in your ear how indispensable you are.
There was a reason Roman generals who were awarded with a triupmh had a slave in their chariot to remind the general that he was mortal.

 

[arthurdawg]

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/4718993-did-biden-break-his-one-term-pledge/

Stongly implied... But was never fully stated. And possibly was a smokescreen.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Didn't Biden initially say he would only be a one term guy? Memory is failing me. but I vaguely remember this

No, he never made any such promise to the electorate. Politico ran a story saying his advisors were saying that, but Biden himself denied it strongly the day that article ran.

Joe Biden denies he is mulling a one-term pledge if elected president

Former Vice President Joe Biden denied a reported discussion within his campaign that he would only seek one term in office if elected president.

abcnews.go.com

Knowing politicians, it is also possible that he had one set of advisors out there suggesting it hoping to gin up support and he was out there denying it. (This is too much thinking for mango Mussolini, but most politicians use this trick).

I don’t think it matters though. The very same people who insisted to the rest of us he was sharp as a tack will revise their own personal histories to create the story that they were all against him running for reelection, but he wouldn’t listen to them. He will die before most of them, and then they can hit the circuit selling books as to how the whole country would be different if he would’ve just listened to them.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

In 2020, Joe Biden explicitly said he was going to nominate a black woman.

Not to be pedantic, but he promised a WOMAN as VP, not a black woman.

He promised a BLACK woman for the Supreme Court and then appointed that embarrassment who informed us all she can't tell us what a woman is because she is not a biologist has already decided how she's going to rule on any trans case placed before her in violation of the most basic qualification for a judge.

My suspicion has always been it was Klobuchar, who was polling well - right up until George Floyd was murdered by the cops in the same county where Klobuchar had been the DA.

He chose between Karen Bass and Kamala.
In 2024, Joe Biden was so late in the cycle opting out, it had to be Kamala or all the Biden-Harris money could not be applied to the Democratic candidate. If they had gone with someone else, they would have had to start fundraising all over. In July.

Fact check: true.

Biden should have announced in 2022 that he was not running. "I set out to defeat Trump, and we did defeat him. Now, I'm clearing the way for a younger Democrat chosen by the party rank and file."

I don't think this is near the real-life solution that everyone wants to pretend. But assuming it is, I think he has to wait until about November 2023, after his big deal in favor of the unions. Who negotiates with a President who is a lame duck?

I'm also not convinced it would have worked or they would have won, either.
Everyone ASSUMES it would have worked.

Let me put it like this: how long do you think it would have taken Trump or his underlings to point out that the replacement nominee (whoever he or she was) backed Biden's policies 9x% of the time? And how much can ANY nominee actually back away from what the party has done while in charge for four years? Granted, Harris was more saddled with the decisions than any other Democrat but Biden, but I remain unconvinced that "well, if they'd just chosen Whitmer/Bernie/whomever" that the end result is any different.

And any primary would have re-opened the internal wounds in the party over center left vs left, too.


The choice of Harris IN THE FIRST PLACE was the wrong decision, and the rest of it was dominoes toppling.

 

[Its On A Slab]

There are 26 women in the U.S. Senate right now. The idea that any substantial number of people go in with "naw, I can't vote fer a woman" is absurd.

Bear in mind, Hillary got more votes and folks STILL want to go with "but misogyny."

We will probably have a woman President in the next 20 years.
And it will probably be a Republican, too.

Here is the fallacy in your argument. You are equating congressional and Senate elections with national elections.

For example, you wouldn't have seen the sort of racist and misogynistic tactics going on in Kamala's US Senate campaign as you did when she ran for President.

And we all remember the things said about Speaker Pelosi that you'd never hear about a male speaker of the House.

The only worse showing of this would be if Michelle Obama were to try to run. She knows better. She's already seen it while she was First Lady.

 

[Tidewater]

Not to be pedantic, but he promised a WOMAN as VP, not a black woman.

He promised a BLACK woman for the Supreme Court and then appointed that embarrassment who informed us all she can't tell us what a woman is because she is not a biologist has already decided how she's going to rule on any trans case placed before her in violation of the most basic qualification for a judge.

My suspicion has always been it was Klobuchar, who was polling well - right up until George Floyd was murdered by the cops in the same county where Klobuchar had been the DA.



Fact check: true.



I don't think this is near the real-life solution that everyone wants to pretend. But assuming it is, I think he has to wait until about November 2023, after his big deal in favor of the unions. Who negotiates with a President who is a lame duck?

I'm also not convinced it would have worked or they would have won, either.
Everyone ASSUMES it would have worked.

Let me put it like this: how long do you think it would have taken Trump or his underlings to point out that the replacement nominee (whoever he or she was) backed Biden's policies 9x% of the time? And how much can ANY nominee actually back away from what the party has done while in charge for four years? Granted, Harris was more saddled with the decisions than any other Democrat but Biden, but I remain unconvinced that "well, if they'd just chosen Whitmer/Bernie/whomever" that the end result is any different.

And any primary would have re-opened the internal wounds in the party over center left vs left, too.


The choice of Harris IN THE FIRST PLACE was the wrong decision, and the rest of it was dominoes toppling.

Fair points. I appreciate the correction on a woman vs a black woman. The only names I heard associated with the pick were Harris and Bass.
As for the timing of the announcement, you are probably correct, but in any case, July of election year was probably the wrong time to step aside. All the money donated to Biden-Harris had to go to Biden or Harris. If some other person had been the candidate, they would have had to start fund-raising all over again. When Biden step aside that late, Harris was the obvious choice from a financial point of view.
I do not know that announcing in November 2022 or November 2023 would have worked, but I think it would have been better than Harris. I just do not think she was an effective candidate. Biden announcing he was stepping aside in July 2024 goofy-footed the party, so the Democrats conducted a Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT).

 

[AWRTR]

But that's a hard thing to do when the next generation is full of nimrods like AOC and the fraud-squad. Older Dems are frightened of these people (and they should be) so that leaves them no choice but to back candidates who belong in a nursing home. If the Dem party ever falls fully under control of the left-wing extremists, they may never win another election no matter how ridiculous the Republicans get (and trust me, that's another hole with no bottom.)

A moderate winning the presidential nomination for either party is going to be a hard hill to the climb. The candidates that will perform the best in the general election and probably the best in office as well can't get the nomination because the primary electorate is too extreme. A Romney or Bill Clinton type candidate can't win anymore.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Here is the fallacy in your argument. You are equating congressional and Senate elections with national elections.

Hillary Clinton got more votes than the white guy she ran against, and not only in the Senate race.

But nobody will vote for a woman.

The even weirder part is that all those racists now are apparently in the swing states like Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan, and Wisconsin.....states that voted for the black woman as the #2.......and then jumped to Trump four years later.

Rejecting Kamala Harris doesn't constitute rejecting every black woman out there.

 

[92tide]

well, im glad we have concluded that it’s all the democrat’s fault. i was worried the thread would drift away from its initial purpose /s

 

[arthurdawg]

Fair points. I appreciate the correction on a woman vs a black woman. The only names I heard associated with the pick were Harris and Bass.
As for the timing of the announcement, you are probably correct, but in any case, July of election year was probably the wrong time to step aside. All the money donated to Biden-Harris had to go to Biden or Harris. If some other person had been the candidate, they would have had to start fund-raising all over again. When Biden step aside that late, Harris was the obvious choice from a financial point of view.
I do not know that announcing in November 2022 or November 2023 would have worked, but I think it would have been better than Harris. I just do not think she was an effective candidate. Biden announcing he was stepping aside in July 2024 goofy-footed the party, so the Democrats conducted a Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT).

January 2024... Announce you are stepping down to allow a fair Democractic primary to select the best option.

 

[Tidewater]

January 2024... Announce you are stepping down to allow a fair Democractic primary to select the best option.

I would have agreed with that as well, although that is kind of late in the process for candidates to start building their organizations and ground game to win the primaries and then the general. It would have been better than July in any case.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

January 2024... Announce you are stepping down to allow a fair Democratic primary to select the best option.

That's a problem, too.

You can't run for President without money.

The New Hampshire primary was on January 23.

Again - everyone saying, "The Democrats should have replaced him sooner" runs up against political realities.

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback. One thing this particular route would have done is placed a premium on the FERVENT ACTIVIST voters, which points towards Bernie Sanders, and might have turned out even worse. If Harris had won the election, the same people we now impugn for their incompetence would be praised as political geniuses.

It's also hilarious to admit that the billionaire donor class - you know, the people Sanders blames for everything - are really the ones who forced the party to throw Biden overboard. "No more money until he's gone" shows where the power really is.

 

[Its On A Slab]

Hillary Clinton got more votes than the white guy she ran against, and not only in the Senate race.

But nobody will vote for a woman.

The even weirder part is that all those racists now are apparently in the swing states like Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan, and Wisconsin.....states that voted for the black woman as the #2.......and then jumped to Trump four years later.

Rejecting Kamala Harris doesn't constitute rejecting every black woman out there.

Again. Hillary was running in a statewide election. In New 'Yawk for that matter.

You're being intentionally obtuse if you are positing that Kamala wasn't assailed by misogyny and racism.

 

[JDCrimson]

Harris may just have been an unpreferred candidate in some of the purple states around the country. But in the Deep Red South, misogyny and racism factor heavily in voting preferences. To say she wasn't victim of it is just not accurate. The vile things I have heard people say about Obama over the years were probably held the same over Harris by the same voters.