How Do The Economies Of European Countries Compare With Individual States In The US?
- Thread starter crimsonaudio
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James Pethokoukis "Thank American-style capitalism for this chart"
Sort of related and your article made me think of this.
Sort of related and your article made me think of this.
I've a buddy that happens to be an economist on another forum. He pretty much scoffed at the notion Mises is pushing here. Suggested they were being very selective with their data to paint a picture that doesn't reflect reality. I'll see if I can find that post. It was a few months ago.
I'm not so sure why so many people in the U.S. think the European model is so superior. I've had five tenants from Europe and all of them said they envy America's "system". They cannot own guns, wages aren't good (compared to the U.S.) and they pay out their hindinger in taxes. Where's the superiority? I'm legitimately asking.
my own counterpoint is that I work globally on a team that has fairly standard pay but the Benefits and vacation they get are far, far better. They work 10 months a year and get paid for 13 with little to no healthcare expenses
I didn't get into the healthcare side of it with my tenants. They were all between the ages of 22 & 45. They said they had to pay a lot of taxes and their money couldn't afford them the quality of living that Americans have. They also envied that we were able to own guns. One of the guys said (and I'm not sure how true this is) that you have to be careful when defending yourself from an intruder because you can be just as easily charged with a crime. So I gathered their "self defense" laws aren't what ours are. Again, I was a little skeptical about that part of it. But that is what he told me.
Taking everything into consideration, would you rather live under the European model or our model?
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I've always been bemused that, in poll after poll, Denmark comes out as the "happiest nation on Earth." At the same time, the nation which consumes the most antidepressants is - wait for it - Denmark. Do they query them after pill time? 
So you're saying they may not be as happy as they put out to be? LOL! Err, unless they're on their happy pills.I've always been bemused that, in poll after poll, Denmark comes out as the "happiest nation on Earth." At the same time, the nation which consumes the most antidepressants is - wait for it - Denmark. Do they query them after pill time?
I never found them to be all that friendly, either. The Norwegians are friendlier...
Our model is more free and therefore allows for potential that doesn't exist there. Here, even with all of the roadblocks in place, an average person can "rise above his station" and become truly wealthy. That is next to impossible there. So I'll take this but if I being completely honest I'd prefer here with a 30% reduction in Defense spending, 100% reduction in oil and gas subsidies, 75% in Agriculture Subsidies (find a way to only give this welfare to poor farmers and not Ag giants) and 10% across the board from everywhere else. Take the money that results divide it by 3, 33.3% to pay for Healthcare, education and new citizen services, 33.3% to service the debt and 33.3% in tax refunds to tax payers (not credits to non tax payers) this is overly simplistic of course but it works in my head.
The freedom to rise above and become something greater is why I much prefer our system, despite the fact that such a system also has the downside of you falling flat on your face. I get that the cushion is much softer over there, but the ceiling is much lower as well. I like your adjustments, however.
Empirical evidence only, but I have several European friends who are quite wealthy that do not enjoy the financial freedoms I do.
I think herein lies the key CA, "quite wealthy" relative to what? The economic system they operate in? One of my European tenants was an engineer by trade but within this particular engineering company he had worked his way up to being in management. Just strictly comparing wealth to wealth, not taking into consideration each of our different economies we operate within, he told me I was MUCH MUCH wealthier than he was. I could do more with my money, I got to keep more of my money and that to me is invaluable.
Wealthy within their system and in pure dollars (not buying power) wealthier than I am. That said, one friend in particular owns a beach estate in France worth several million Euros - I've stayed there vacationing and while the house is expansive (some 4,500 sq ft) the trim detail and appointments are equivalent to a $100k home here. Electric range instead of gas as it's so much more expensive to burn CNG over there. They live comfortably, but the cost of living is so high that they lack the discretionary funds I have.
Another friend in Denmark wants a car badly, but unless you remove the back seat of the car, making it two-seater, it's classified as a 'work vehicle' and requires even higher taxation, which is currently over 100%. He explained to me that a cheap, used car that costs $10k in the US will cost him well over $20k in Denmark due to taxes, and if the cost of the car is above something like 80k kroner (which is like $12k in the US) it carries a 180% tax bill.
My experience having friends / clients all over Europe along with my travels there mirror what the original article states - we enjoy a more affluent and 'upwardly mobile' lifestyle in the US due to the lower taxes we pay (which I think are still too high, but that's another thread)...
CA, I have had very similar conversations with former European classmates. Taxes soak up a great deal of their income. Yes, European governments tend to set the floor higher, but it comes at great cost. You have to be very wealthy to have some luxuries.
A lot of people see the "free" things Europeans have and stop right there with their analysis. TANSTAAFL doesn't compute. Either they don't realize the tax burden involved, or they flat out like the idea of stealing from those that achieve.Yet you've got Americans who want this type system. Un-freakin-believable.
A lot of the affection for Eurpoean economies has to do with healthcare. The Americans who tout it have a tendency to equate price and cost. They're not technically the same anyway. But when you get government intervention, the difference is no longer a technicality, but godamighty material.
When a Frenchman, for example, gets, say, an appendectomy, he leaves the hospital having paid little or nothing. So the price to him is zero (or close to it).
This is often ballyhooed as being "at no cost," and compared to an American cost into five figures. Trouble is, the medical procedure costs about the same in Paris as it does here. It's just that the patient doesn't pay it, except in the form of taxes over a long period of time.
So the French government is assuming the role that, for most Americans, is played by health insurers -- Blue Cross and the like.
So to support the Eurpoean model, you have to believe that government is more efficient than the private sector.
Other than functions properly reserved for the government (like national defense), I'm hard pressed to think of anything that any level of government does more efficiently than the private sector, motivated by **gasp** profit.
I do think the European HC model might work for routine stuff -- colds, minor illnesses & injuries without complications. But if you're no-fooling sick or hurt, you're way better off in America.
Look, I'm not saying the American system is perfect. I'm saying it's both more efficient and delivers a better product to a greater proportion of the population than anybody else's. And, by the way, manages to deliver billions in pro bono services.
When a Frenchman, for example, gets, say, an appendectomy, he leaves the hospital having paid little or nothing. So the price to him is zero (or close to it).
This is often ballyhooed as being "at no cost," and compared to an American cost into five figures. Trouble is, the medical procedure costs about the same in Paris as it does here. It's just that the patient doesn't pay it, except in the form of taxes over a long period of time.
So the French government is assuming the role that, for most Americans, is played by health insurers -- Blue Cross and the like.
So to support the Eurpoean model, you have to believe that government is more efficient than the private sector.
Other than functions properly reserved for the government (like national defense), I'm hard pressed to think of anything that any level of government does more efficiently than the private sector, motivated by **gasp** profit.
I do think the European HC model might work for routine stuff -- colds, minor illnesses & injuries without complications. But if you're no-fooling sick or hurt, you're way better off in America.
Look, I'm not saying the American system is perfect. I'm saying it's both more efficient and delivers a better product to a greater proportion of the population than anybody else's. And, by the way, manages to deliver billions in pro bono services.
Yet you've got Americans who want this type system. Un-freakin-believable.
The preference, I think, comes down to the basic desire for safety vs. freedom. More and more Americans are willing to relinquish freedom (and the responsibility it carries) for safety and comfort. Either for themselves or the rest of the population.
I realize a society has to have balance. My preference is to lean towards freedom and personal responsibility as much as possible.
I struggled with this concept when I completed that candidate survey in another thread. On one hand, I feel that businesses (even the alternative energy ones) should live or die on the free market. On the other hand, I can justify governmental interest in the exploration and development of a variety of energy sources since energy is critical to driving our economy and even the defense of our country. I can find my way to being okay with government investment in the development of energy sources or with government being completely hands-off. I do not, however, agree with punishing some sources of energy while investing in others.
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