How is the church (Christian Church) suppose to operate without tithes?

  • HELLO AGAIN, Guest! We are back, live! We're still doing some troubleshooting and maintenance to fix a few remaining issues but everything looks stable now (except front page which we're working on over next day or two)

    Thanks for your patience and support! MUCH appreciated! --Brett (BamaNation)

    if you see any problems - please post them in the Troubleshooting board!

Here's my question(s). What would happen if every believer that attended church stopped giving? Would the church be better off to move back into homes, get rid of the full time preachers, song leaders, programs the local churches normally offer kids, etc?

I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't give. I'm certainly not. It's just that scripture does not compel Christians to give.

If you want to be a part of a congregation that does those things, then you need to support it with your time and money. If you don't want to support those things, then you shouldn't be a part of that congregation.

If you are part of a home church that doesn't pay anyone's salary, then you have no real overhead and, therefore, no real need to give. Now, if you decide to help someone or some thing monetarily, then you choose to do that, collect the money as you all see fit, and contribute that money to the cause that you have chosen.

If you are part of a brick and mortar church that has monthly expenses and salaries to pay then you, as a member, should contribute to pay for those expenses. You are choosing to be a member of this congregation with those obligations and so you, as a member, share in these obligations. That's just common sense.
 
No, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying people in the thread are saying to stop giving. I'm saying what if believers exercised their freedom to not "have to" give money to the church. What would the church be like and would it be more effective than it currently is?

Ah, I see. In that case, ignore my previous post. Well, don't ignore it, but you get the point. :)

To that, it depends greatly on how you define "church". There are many who attend worship on a regular basis (and even many who tithe) who are not walking in the light and, therefore, are not part of the Lord's church. At the very least they are not beholden to the inheritance of His church, as erring children.

If that were to happen, I think the church would definitely be more effective, on a per capita basis. The overall size of what the world would perceive as the church, though, would be greatly diminished.

However, the size of the Lord's church would be the same, or possibly even increase. The reduction would merely be separating the wheat from the chaff.
 
Brother, one thing about common sense is that it ain't too dang common. We've got numerous couples in our church, that are in the medical field, both spouses make butt loads of money and do not tithe/give/contribute, whatever you want to call it. BECAUSE they say it is not scriptural. So they say according to the scripture they are not doing anything wrong.

Even if they are "members" of our church and partake of all the church offers they say they are not scripturally obligated to tithe/give so they don't and shouldn't be "looked down upon" because they don't. Now the only reason anyone knows they don't tithe is because this topic came up in a bible study and their were a number of couples that willingly disclosed they do not tithe/give.

For some reason I have a problem with this and maybe I shouldn't. :redface:


I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't give. I'm certainly not. It's just that scripture does not compel Christians to give.

If you want to be a part of a congregation that does those things, then you need to support it with your time and money. If you don't want to support those things, then you shouldn't be a part of that congregation.

If you are part of a home church that doesn't pay anyone's salary, then you have no real overhead and, therefore, no real need to give. Now, if you decide to help someone or some thing monetarily, then you choose to do that, collect the money as you all see fit, and contribute that money to the cause that you have chosen.

If you are part of a brick and mortar church that has monthly expenses and salaries to pay then you, as a member, should contribute to pay for those expenses. You are choosing to be a member of this congregation with those obligations and so you, as a member, share in these obligations. That's just common sense.
 
Brother, one thing about common sense is that it ain't too dang common. We've got numerous couples in our church, that are in the medical field, both spouses make butt loads of money and do not tithe/give/contribute, whatever you want to call it. BECAUSE they say it is not scriptural. So they say according to the scripture they are not doing anything wrong.

Even if they are "members" of our church and partake of all the church offers they say they are not scripturally obligated to tithe/give so they don't and shouldn't be "looked down upon" because they don't. Now the only reason anyone knows they don't tithe is because this topic came up in a bible study and their were a number of couples that willingly disclosed they do not tithe/give.

For some reason I have a problem with this and maybe I shouldn't. :redface:

Do they not tithe or do they not give at all. If they do not give at all and they are in a position to give, I would ask them, on the side, if they had specific concerns that keep them from giving. If they are just greedy, you are stuck. Move on. Some people will never understand.
 
They don't give a dime. I'm not just talking about one couple. I'm talking about a lot of married couples and singles that are 35 yrs of age and under within our church. And it's not just our church. It's a growing issue with a lot of churches who are saying their money comes from mostly their older members. The younger couples simply do not give.

Do they not tithe or do they not give at all. If they do not give at all and they are in a position to give, I would ask them, on the side, if they had specific concerns that keep them from giving. If they are just greedy, you are stuck. Move on. Some people will never understand.
 
Brother, one thing about common sense is that it ain't too dang common.
See my sig. :)

We've got numerous couples in our church, that are in the medical field, both spouses make butt loads of money and do not tithe/give/contribute, whatever you want to call it. BECAUSE they say it is not scriptural. So they say according to the scripture they are not doing anything wrong.

Even if they are "members" of our church and partake of all the church offers they say they are not scripturally obligated to tithe/give so they don't and shouldn't be "looked down upon" because they don't. Now the only reason anyone knows they don't tithe is because this topic came up in a bible study and their were a number of couples that willingly disclosed they do not tithe/give.

For some reason I have a problem with this and maybe I shouldn't. :redface:

I would have a problem with it as well. While they are absolutely correct in saying that being required to tithe is unscriptural, they are committing the oft committed sin of a knee-jerk reaction. I use the word sin there figuratively, but you could make an argument that they are, in fact, sinning. "To him who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him that is sin." There is a scriptural precedent to give money to the church. And if the leaders of the congregation, with the consent of its members, choose to require some sort of contribution then choosing to not contribute based upon a mis-applied principle could easily be considered a sin.

Now, how you view depends greatly upon the organization and practice of your congregation. Most people have little understanding of how the church should be organized.

When a member chooses a congregation, it is like a sheep picking with which flock it wants to roam the countryside. The reason a sheep joins a flock is not about the comfort and convenience of the flock; it's about the protection of the shepherd. It's not about which "church" has more to offer you, which "church" has a better reputation or social standing, which "church" will accept your application, or even which "church" is more scripturally accurate than another. What being a "member" of a congregation is about is submitting yourself to the care of the shepherds of that congregation. By becoming a member, you are submitting yourself to their authority, and are agreeing to abide under their guidance.

This agreement is not between you and them or between you and the congregation as a whole; this agreement is between you and God. If you choose to purposefully not abide under their authority or their direction, then you are violating that agreement with God, not with them.

If you don't like a particular congregation, or the shepherds of that congregation, and their direction then you have three options. First, you can submit to their authority and follow their direction without complaining or causing division. Two, you can continue to submit to their authority and follow their direction while trying to get that direction changed in some way, following the commandments and examples for such change in scripture. Three, you can choose to become a member of another congregation.


As a small aside, there were only four "positions" in the early church. I put positions in quotes because they weren't positions in the sense that it is a position that you are elected to, like a Senator or Representative. It was a title that was either earned by your actions and/or assignment(s) that were given to you.

These positions, as I refer to them, are:
Shepherds,
Ministers,
Deacons, and
Missionaries.

You'll notice that I left out preachers, and I did so on purpose. What we call preachers (and what some call pastors) was a position that did not exist in the early church. In fact, there was no "sermon" during that formal worship service. What the New Testament writings call a preacher we would call a missionary.

There are 5 terms in the New Testament used for shepherds:
Shepherd, Elder, Pastor, Overseer, and Bishop.
They all refer to one and the same function or office, if you will. Their job was to protect and guide the flock. I would use the term "lead", but people often misunderstand it. The way an Elder, Bishop, Overseer, or Pastor should lead is not like that of a General, who commands troops to advance while sitting safely in the rear, but like a jungle guide, who says "follow me and step where I step."

Ministers were those who saw to the needs of the flock, whether physical or mental. Ministers were often members who would have been shepherds but were either too young or otherwise ineligible for being assigned the task of a shepherd or, perhaps, did not desire the responsibility of the task.

Deacons were those who saw to the ancillary functions of the congregation such as distributing food and clothing, collecting and distributing funds, and other day to day necessities of the congregation and/or its members.

Missionaries were those who left their homes, and their congregations, to go out and spread the Gospel to another part of the world.

It should be noted that many people may have held multiple "titles". A very common combination was someone who was both a deacon and a minister. Shepherds were often considered ministers. A shepherd would not have often been a deacon or a missionary, as both of those tasks would take away from their shepherding responsibilities.


The reason I mention this is because it is, in many ways, at the heart of why people misunderstand their responsibilities as a member of a congregation.
 
They don't give a dime. I'm not just talking about one couple. I'm talking about a lot of married couples and singles that are 35 yrs of age and under within our church. And it's not just our church. It's a growing issue with a lot of churches who are saying their money comes from mostly their older members. The younger couples simply do not give.

I don't know what to say. I have never been a member of a church with that problem. Charity comes from the heart, and my donations to my church are charity, not obligations. If these people are not charitable people, you are not going to make them change. God might, but you will not. But it is also not our position to judge them. So, like I said before, you are stuck.

One thing is certain, it will only hurt your church if you start making demands of people or judging people for this kind of thing.
 
Good thread.

I'm not the type to tell others how to spend or what to spend, but I think Mark 12:17 applies here.


And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marveled at him.

-Mark 12:17

In short, pay your taxes and, in so many words, your tithes.
 
Good thread.

I'm not the type to tell others how to spend or what to spend, but I think Mark 12:17 applies here.




In short, pay your taxes and, in so many words, your tithes.
I think the point is if it were about tithing, specifically, it would say so. The big difference between the old law and the new is that under the old law, actions were necessary, whereas under the new, actions aren't - it's the motivation, the heart that's more important.

IOW, in an extreme example, if one makes billions of dollars annually and can easily afford 10% of his income as a tithe, is that better than the person who can afford little but is willing to give of his or her time to bless others in the name of Jesus?

Which seems more like what Jesus preaches over and over - the 'benchmark amount' or the reflection of love to the needy?
 
Here's my question(s). What would happen if every believer that attended church stopped giving? Would the church be better off to move back into homes, get rid of the full time preachers, song leaders, programs the local churches normally offer kids, etc?
I am probably in the minority, I don't know, but my answer to your second question is a HUGE yes.
I just typed another long post, and deleted it... Suffice to say, I think the biggest threat of a large church is that it offers so much, members go to be filled in every way except spiritually.
 
As an atheist motorist, I would really appreciate the diminished Sunday and Wednesday night traffic, if the local megachurches were to fold due to lack of funding.
 
I think the point is if it were about tithing, specifically, it would say so. The big difference between the old law and the new is that under the old law, actions were necessary, whereas under the new, actions aren't - it's the motivation, the heart that's more important.

IOW, in an extreme example, if one makes billions of dollars annually and can easily afford 10% of his income as a tithe, is that better than the person who can afford little but is willing to give of his or her time to bless others in the name of Jesus?

Which seems more like what Jesus preaches over and over - the 'benchmark amount' or the reflection of love to the needy?

Great point!

Monetary donations aren't worth any more than the gifts of time and effort. I agree that, specifically in the New Testament, one's intentions are more important than the percentage of their net income they give.
 
I heard a pastor one time say that in his opinion the best way for Christianity to flourish and spread is to keep churches from getting "too big". When a church got a certain size that they should break off and go start another church and then repeat. I think it's a great idea. I think you're right. Churches get so big they become six flags over Jesus.


I am probably in the minority, I don't know, but my answer to your second question is a HUGE yes.
I just typed another long post, and deleted it... Suffice to say, I think the biggest threat of a large church is that it offers so much, members go to be filled in every way except spiritually.
 
I heard a pastor one time say that in his opinion the best way for Christianity to flourish and spread is to keep churches from getting "too big". When a church got a certain size that they should break off and go start another church and then repeat. I think it's a great idea. I think you're right. Churches get so big they become six flags over Jesus.
Agreed.
What bothers me is that churches need money, which means they need people, which means they need to "recruit" people, meaning they need to put money into attracting people. So, we attract people who are looking for those things that we put money into - basketball courts, coffee bars, and LCD TVs. Then, people focus on those things, and the church becomes a community center that meets on Sundays to hear a guy talk about God. Sometimes. Sometimes it's just about how to be a nicer guy or gal.

A snippet about Francis Chan, author of Crazy Love.
Moving Church Outside | Church Marketing Sucks

“How glorious will it be to preach to 5,000 people in the rain knowing that needs are being met across the world because we chose to be outside. And if someone worries about getting sick being outside for an hour, then (insert some nicer way to say “I don’t care” here).
 
Oh no, I' would never say anything. Its not my place.

Actually, it is. But you must do it correctly.

Matthew said:
"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
(Mat 18:15-17)

If you see a brother in sin, you have a responsibility to address it, if you are truly brothers. However, you must address it in love and not in condemnation.



This is the whole point of confession. It's not about feeling shameful and admitting that you've sinned to the whole congregation; it's not about guilt. It's about strength, as in the strength of the congregation. Everyone sins, and everyone should confess on a regular basis.

A member's confession should not be: "I've messed up, I'm sorry, and I'll try not to do it again."

A member's confession should be: "brothers and sisters, I'm struggling with this sin and I've given in to temptation, and I need your help to keep from giving in to it again in the future."


As a Christian, we have a responsibility to help bear the burdens of our fellow Christians. How can we help bear their burdens when we have no clue what they are?
 
...If you see a brother in sin, you have a responsibility to address it, if you are truly brothers, but to address in love and not in condemnation...

If a member of my church came to me and told me that I was sinning because I was not giving enough, I would laugh and then leave, never to return.

I can't think that this would EVER work. There is no way to call a person a sinner for not giving enough money and not come off looking petty, even greedy.
 
I also heard a pastor recently say "If you use worldly things to attract people then you'll need worldly things to keep them."

With regards to churches. I think there are too many paid staff in churches now days. I remember when the overwhelming majority of the church staff was volunteer. Though I was real young, I remember pastors who had regular jobs during the week and preached on Wednesday night and Sundays.

Now days everybody gets paid. The church and its overhead have ballooned like the national debt.

Agreed.
What bothers me is that churches need money, which means they need people, which means they need to "recruit" people, meaning they need to put money into attracting people. So, we attract people who are looking for those things that we put money into - basketball courts, coffee bars, and LCD TVs. Then, people focus on those things, and the church becomes a community center that meets on Sundays to hear a guy talk about God. Sometimes. Sometimes it's just about how to be a nicer guy or gal.

A snippet about Francis Chan, author of Crazy Love.
Moving Church Outside | Church Marketing Sucks

“How glorious will it be to preach to 5,000 people in the rain knowing that needs are being met across the world because we chose to be outside. And if someone worries about getting sick being outside for an hour, then (insert some nicer way to say “I don’t care” here).
 
|

Latest threads