Indiana (Sign Stealing)

[davefrat]

Perhaps I don’t really understand what sign stealing entails, because I don’t even get why it’s illegal.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

This reflects poorly on the Staff and especially Wommack.

I mean they knew IU did this but didn’t do anything about it before playing them?

That makes our staff sound like lazy morons and whiners to boot.

Hopefully this is pure gossip and more inaccurate than accurate.

 

[gman4tide]

I mean, unless they did something to listen in on Bama's comms...is it really cheating? If you're gonna huddle anywhere near the los and the signal caller is gonna call the play loud enough for me to hear, you dadgum right imma try to steal it/counter it. If you're gonna use signals for other than formations, don't make them easy for me to translate. As long as I'm not sneaking someone into a coach's meeting or wire tapping...its part of the game. Thats just me tho.

 

[AlexanderFan]

Perhaps I don’t really understand what sign stealing entails, because I don’t even get why it’s illegal.

Defense is read and react. That takes time. If all you have to do is react because you know what’s going to happen, your guys just react. Play action is less effective, all the eye candy motion is meaningless, any advantage the offense may gain by deception is negated.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Sign stealing is a part of any organized sport. Heck, my 12 year old players steal signs on the baseball field without me even saying anything. I've even had several times where my players have come and told me they have figured out the steal sign of the other team's 3rd base coach and I've used it to my advantage.

I have zero problem with it between the white lines. I think the Michigan sign-stealing situation and the Houston Astros fiasco, are situations that go "out of bounds" and should be dealt with.

 

[BamaMoon]

I don't know what to think about stuff like this. It fall in the category of what I told someone last night when discussing current day college athletics. I told them, "I miss the days when everyone knew everybody cheated some, but it was illegal."

I remember after one of the Bama vs. Clemson games for the NC (2018 BCSNCG?), the word got out that they knew what plays were coming. Tua, the best passer we've ever had at Bama, was shut down and threw a couple of INTs, IIRC. That game caught me off guard and it later made sense if we were tipping plays, as it was rumored.

With Indiana? I wasn't surprised we lost the game, but I was surprised how it seemed like every play they called on both sides of the ball seemed to work. I'll never be convinced Indiana had more talent than most of the teams they beat last year, so if they developed a system to know their opponents' plays, I guess they hood winked the whole college football universe all the way to the most improbable NC as I can EVER remember!

As for Cig? I hope he fails on the most epic scale! I've never seen someone who is so cocky. On CNS's most cocky day in the years when we won 5 out 10 NCs, he was a humble son of a WV coal miner compared to Cig.

 

[CrimsonBloodn62]

Sign stealing is a part of any organized sport. Heck, my 12 year old players steal signs on the baseball field without me even saying anything. I've even had several times where my players have come and told me they have figured out the steal sign of the other team's 3rd base coach and I've used it to my advantage.

I have zero problem with it between the white lines. I think the Michigan sign-stealing situation and the Houston Astros fiasco, are situations that go "out of bounds" and should be dealt with.

If I remember correctly, a Little League World Series team was warned on TV last year about stealing signs. It shows up in every sport and at every level. The pressure to win can at all cost really means at any cost.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I don't know what to think about stuff like this. It fall in the category of what I told someone last night when discussing current day college athletics. I told them, "I miss the days when everyone knew everybody cheated some, but it was illegal."

I remember after one of the Bama vs. Clemson games for the NC (2018 BCSNCG?), the word got out that they knew what plays were coming. Tua, the best passer we've ever had at Bama, was shut down and threw a couple of INTs, IIRC. That game caught me off guard and it later made sense if we were tipping plays, as it was rumored.

With Indiana? I wasn't surprised we lost the game, but I was surprised how it seemed like every play they called on both sides of the ball seemed to work. I'll never be convinced Indiana had more talent than most of the teams they beat last year, so if they developed a system to know their opponents' plays, I guess they hood winked the whole college football universe all the way to the most improbable NC as I can EVER remember!

As for Cig? I hope he fails on the most epic scale! I've never seen someone who is so cocky. On CNS's most cocky day in the years when we won 5 out 10 NCs, he was a humble son of a WV coal miner compared to Cig.

IMO, they had too many games that were close to have discovered a cheat code of knowing other teams' signs so well they would blow them out. That isn't to say that they didn't effectively use sign stealing as part of their success. But I'm just not convinced that it was the reason they went undefeated and won a NC.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

If I remember correctly, a Little League World Series team was warned on TV last year about stealing signs. It shows up in every sport and at every level. The pressure to win can at all cost really means at any cost.

And what that LL team was warned about is taught as fundamental baseball by any coach worth their salt from about age 12 and up. I'm a "baseball guy" so I guess I'm biased. Because, to me, a runner at second subtly signaling to the batter what the pitch is, is no different than a batter returning to the dugout and telling everybody "Hey, the pitcher always rubs his nose when he's going to throw a curveball" and then every hitter taking that information and lighting up the pitcher. Again, I'm biased when it comes to the sport of baseball because I was raised in it, so odds are, I'm in the minority on this one.

 

[bamaslammer]

With AI technology and large analyst staffs along with enormous pressure to win this will be the tip of the iceberg. I believe there needs to be some thought put in to how to communicate in such a way as to not reveal intent. Like many said the main call comes across the radio. I'm curious what security exists on those radios? encryption maybe? but if so all the other team needs is the key to hear it real time. but lets assume they haven't done that. Making line calls may need to be something they rethink as to how often and how that is communicated. I mean it could be as simple as having a mole in the press box. In high school we stopped a game because the home team chain gang was listening to our coach call the play and relaying it to the conerback. I kept wondering why the linebackers were instantly going the right direction.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

With AI technology and large analyst staffs along with enormous pressure to win this will be the tip of the iceberg. I believe there needs to be some thought put in to how to communicate in such a way as to not reveal intent. Like many said the main call comes across the radio. I'm curious what security exists on those radios? encryption maybe? but if so all the other team needs is the key to hear it real time. but lets assume they haven't done that. Making line calls may need to be something they rethink as to how often and how that is communicated. I mean it could be as simple as having a mole in the press box. In high school we stopped a game because the home team chain gang was listening to our coach call the play and relaying it to the conerback. I kept wondering why the linebackers were instantly going the right direction.

The effort to win has never had boundaries and I don't think ever will. With technology, I can almost guarantee there are teams that make every effort to hack other teams' technology and it's probably been going on since technology got integrated into sports.

 

[BamaMoon]

IMO, they had too many games that were close to have discovered a cheat code of knowing other teams' signs so well they would blow them out. That isn't to say that they didn't effectively use sign stealing as part of their success. But I'm just not convinced that it was the reason they went undefeated and won a NC.

View attachment 56867

I didn't mean to suggest that's why they won all their games. But, knowing they had such average players playing at such a high level, it might actually serve as another reason they won all those games. No question they played very disciplined football, which is a credit to Cig and his staff, but it sure would help a team like that overcome more talented teams on the schedule.

 

[BamaMoon]

IMO, they had too many games that were close to have discovered a cheat code of knowing other teams' signs so well they would blow them out. That isn't to say that they didn't effectively use sign stealing as part of their success. But I'm just not convinced that it was the reason they went undefeated and won a NC.

View attachment 56867

That schedule and the close games they played probably looks real similar to our 1992 NC schedule.

The difference is nobody was really surprised when a sleeping giant like Alabama, the most blue blood of all blue bloods in football, suddenly woke up to win another NC even though it had been 13 years since 1979's NC.

But, when a team like Indiana comes from out of nowhere...having never even sniffed that kind of success....and wins with a bunch of former James Madison players....yeah, that kinda makes you go, hmmmmm.

 

[TideEngineer08]

I don't really care. They out-physical'd us in a way that had not been done to Alabama since the Mike DuBose era.

Signs or no signs, we were never winning that game.

 

[mlh]

There's a simple solution to all of this. The QB calls the plays. Not the coaches. No signaling from the sideline. No running the play in with a sub. The QB has to be smart enough to actually understand the gameplan and call the plays.

Of course, this is from the guy who said leather helmets and no face masks would immediately eliminate targeting.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I didn't mean to suggest that's why they won all their games. But, knowing they had such average players playing at such a high level, it might actually serve as another reason they won all those games. No question they played very disciplined football, which is a credit to Cig and his staff, but it sure would help a team like that overcome more talented teams on the schedule.

I think some of those players that he transferred in may have started off their college careers as "average" players but legitimately developed into elite players. Specifically, their top two WR's are ranked the #6 and #14 best WR's in the entire draft. To put that in perspective, Germie Bernard's position rank is #9. Their QB is #1 ranked at his position among NFL draftees, and their CB is ranked the 11th best CB in the entire draft. Those are just a few I named. They have several more players projected to go in the draft that are ranked (by the NFL) higher than some of our guys at the same position. Those are more than just "average" players. You don't have to have a roster completely full of NFL draft prospects to win a NC. You just need some in the right positions and an above average supporting cast around them.

Also, you have to look at Cigs coaching record everywhere he's gone. No matter where he's gone, he's ended up winning big. At some point you have to think that's no coincidence. The guy actually might be one helluva coach.

 

[gtgilbert]

I mean, unless they did something to listen in on Bama's comms...is it really cheating? If you're gonna huddle anywhere near the los and the signal caller is gonna call the play loud enough for me to hear, you dadgum right imma try to steal it/counter it. If you're gonna use signals for other than formations, don't make them easy for me to translate. As long as I'm not sneaking someone into a coach's meeting or wire tapping...its part of the game. Thats just me tho.

This - ALL this. My highest level of coaching was volunteer, middle school lacrosse. Even then, I had one coach (also a volunteer) on the sidelines whose job was to listen to what the opposing coaches were saying/calling and what the team then did. The first quarter gave us a rough idea, and by half we could tell our guys what to listen for and what to do when they heard it.

 

[davefrat]

Defense is read and react. That takes time. If all you have to do is react because you know what’s going to happen, your guys just react. Play action is less effective, all the eye candy motion is meaningless, any advantage the offense may gain by deception is negated.

But what’s wrong with being able to figure out what your opponent is doing based upon what they are saying or motioning or whatever they’re doing?

Why is that in and of itself illegal?

Unless they are literally stealing playbooks or hacking into the opponents system, so what?

Isn’t the remedy to donthings in such a way that you don’t tip off the other team as to what you’re doing?

I just don’t get why its illegal.

And if it’s as easy to do as it appears to be, why aren’t we doing it?

 

[davefrat]

I don't know what to think about stuff like this. It fall in the category of what I told someone last night when discussing current day college athletics. I told them, "I miss the days when everyone knew everybody cheated some, but it was illegal."

I remember after one of the Bama vs. Clemson games for the NC (2018 BCSNCG?), the word got out that they knew what plays were coming. Tua, the best passer we've ever had at Bama, was shut down and threw a couple of INTs, IIRC. That game caught me off guard and it later made sense if we were tipping plays, as it was rumored.

With Indiana? I wasn't surprised we lost the game, but I was surprised how it seemed like every play they called on both sides of the ball seemed to work. I'll never be convinced Indiana had more talent than most of the teams they beat last year, so if they developed a system to know their opponents' plays, I guess they hood winked the whole college football universe all the way to the most improbable NC as I can EVER remember!

As for Cig? I hope he fails on the most epic scale! I've never seen someone who is so cocky. On CNS's most cocky day in the years when we won 5 out 10 NCs, he was a humble son of a WV coal miner compared to Cig.

He’s bitter that it took him so long to become a head coach.

He feels like he was overlooked as an assistant too long. I believe Saban even alluded to this during the playoffs and said that he might have been guilty of not appreciating Cignetti as much as he maybe should have.

He’s definitely a grumpy old jerk, but he’s a heck of a football coach.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

Provided the information is publicly available, I have no problem with sign-stealing. It's up to the signaler to prevent that.

By publicly available, I mean a player or coach can see or hear it while the game is going on, or they can watch a replay of a mass-broadcast game, exactly as it was when broadcast live. By mass broadcast, I mean ESPN, conference networks like SECN, BTN, etc., or a national network like NBC. CBS, etc. or a mass-marketed pay-per-view broadcast.

You're not filming, spying or otherwise monitoring a non-public practice. You're not hacking the opposing team's comms. You're not filming or otherwise monitoring the signalers in games not involving your team....or in games your team is playing, with the intent of using the film for future games.

You're getting the information first-hand by hearing or seeing your opponent's activity on the field, or by watching a replay of a game any average fan could have watched at home.