Issues in Education

[Huckleberry]

Surely you're not implying we don't spend enough on education. We spend more per capita on public education that any other country on the planet and our results are an embarrassment. I agree that in order for the standard of living in the US as a whole to rise we have to get people educated and trained for all the new technology. The answer is to 1) transform our schools back into teaching the three Rs and stop with the social justice crap and 2) give some tough love to those parents that just produce kids and make very little effort to raise them properly with morals and the drive to succeed. It is a well known that parental involvement is the number 1 determiner of success in school and in life. We, as a society, need to demand parents be involved with their children's upbringing in a positive way. I'm not saying punish the deadbeat parents with laws but punish with social stigma. It is the only way out of our education slump.

The “we spend more than anyone” line is misleading. The U.S. average is high because wealthy districts spend a ton while poorer districts—especially in states that complain most about “failing schools”—are drastically underfunded. We don’t have one education system; we have 13,000 funding systems tied to local wealth. Compare that to countries with national funding and the talking point falls apart.

Schools never stopped teaching reading, writing, and math. Kids still learn them daily. The idea that “social justice replaced phonics” is a political meme, not reality.

Another piece we never address is how much time, money, and energy schools are forced to waste on high‑stakes standardized testing. These tests haven’t improved learning or outcomes in any lasting way; what they have done is narrow the curriculum, increase student stress, drive great teachers out of the profession, and reduce education to test prep rather than actual learning. If we want kids to think critically and innovate in a modern world, treating schools like testing factories is the wrong strategy.

Yes, parent involvement matters. The real question is whether we’re supporting families so they can be involved—or just shaming stressed, overworked parents who are trying to survive. “Tough love” and social stigma don’t raise children. Access to early childhood education, fair funding, good teachers, and family support do.

If we want improvement, the solution is clear: schools must be funded equitably, investment must start early, parents need real support rather than blame, we should focus on retaining high‑quality teachers, and schools must teach skills relevant to the world students are actually entering.

 

[75thru79]

I wholly disagree on just teaching the 3 Rs. Some of the total missing subjects are social education (how to get along with people you don't know/disagree with/don't like/don't understand their culture) and civics (how should our government work, and what to do about it). I've heard dozens of times that we should put civics back in education from the very generation that eliminated it. Kids need arts. And I recently watched an article about a principal in Bronx I think that integrated debate in every class in middle school. The school exploded in popularity, the kid's grades shot up, and they won the national debate championship. We can improve our education, and that starts with getting the best teaching in our schools. Where I live the pay for teachers is too low to live in the city without a spouse. Regardless of how much we are spending on education, the teacher pay is still far too low. Teachers should be well regarded and well paid for their job, and we're not there yet.

When I said "the three R's" I didn't mean only reading, riting and rithmatic. It is commonly understand to mean basic science, history, mathematics and reading. Arts and music too, as long as it is a reasonable amount of time, that the three Rs are the lion's share of time. No social justice, safe spaces, blah, blah, blah.

 

[Huckleberry]

When I said "the three R's" I didn't mean only reading, riting and rithmatic. It is commonly understand to mean basic science, history, mathematics and reading. Arts and music too, as long as it is a reasonable amount of time, that the three Rs are the lion's share of time. No social justice, safe spaces, blah, blah, blah.

I get why you’re sensitive to politics creeping into the classroom — no parent wants their kid being pressured into a particular ideology. And most teachers don’t want that either. The goal isn’t to turn kids into liberals or conservatives; it’s to help them become thoughtful adults who can navigate the world they’re inheriting.

The tricky part is that terms like “social justice” and “safe spaces” have been turned into culture-war buzzwords, when what they often mean in practice is pretty basic: teaching students to treat others with respect, understand different perspectives, and learn how to handle conflicts or sensitive issues without tearing each other apart. That isn’t indoctrination — that’s just equipping kids with social and civic skills.

And to be fair, if we’re worried about political influence in schools, that concern has to apply across the board. If we don’t want teachers pushing progressive beliefs, we also shouldn’t want them pushing conservative ones. Academic rigor, honest history, critical thinking, and respect for differences should be the common ground — not partisan territory.

If the real goal is to keep classrooms focused on strong academics while avoiding political agendas, then we actually agree more than it might seem. We just need to make sure “no indoctrination” means no indoctrination from either direction, not “teach my values but not theirs.”

 

[mdb-tpet]

When I said "the three R's" I didn't mean only reading, riting and rithmatic. It is commonly understand to mean basic science, history, mathematics and reading. Arts and music too, as long as it is a reasonable amount of time, that the three Rs are the lion's share of time. No social justice, safe spaces, blah, blah, blah.

We gotta try new things. Sometimes they don't work, don't work well, don't work well enough, are implemented too far, etc. Like my example of the add debate to all classes. It sounds like you would give the kids carte blanche to argue over everything to grind the classes to a halt. But they implemented it wisely using debate as a tool, which was highly successful. We really do need to have a critical eye toward our past, the social justice movements (good and bad), and I've seen a little kid breaking down who absolutely, positively needed a safe space in elementary school about a week after their father was shot and killed. Can this be taken too far? Yes it can. Did it make the difference for this kid, it sure seemed like it did in the moment. We gotta look at the data and outcome, before we assume our opinions are correct. I'm tangenting, I'll stop now.

 

[Tidewater]

It is an interesting dynamic I has seen. Professors at Alabama who were left of center/Democrats made sure everyone knew it by posting somethingn on the door to their individual office.
Nobody who was right of center did that, so it created the impression that all professors were left of center.
There was one guy who was a right-libertarian but I only knew that because he was having a very public food fight with the Marxist professor in the same department.
Anyway, there is one data point. You can draw any trend line you like with only one data point.

 

[75thru79]

Professors at Alabama who were left of center/Democrats made sure everyone knew it by posting something on the door to their individual office. Nobody who was right of center did that, so it created the impression that all professors were left of center.

It's because the one's right of center feared being ostracized and bullied by their colleagues. My father spent his entire career at UA teaching biology. You've never seen such a little Peyton Place as you'll find among the faculty at most institutes of higher learning. They can be brutal to those who don't conform. They asked my father to be head of his department in the early to mid 80's, He spent six months doing it and told the Dean he was done wanted to go back to just teaching and research. He hated all the infighting and petty jealousies.

 

[Huckleberry]

Great, another Florida “education” bill that does nothing for education. If it’s not vouchers draining the budget, it’s performative gestures like hanging portraits of Washington and Lincoln while classrooms can’t afford supplies.

 

[92tide]

View attachment 54168

Great, another Florida “education” bill that does nothing for education. If it’s not vouchers draining the budget, it’s performative gestures like hanging portraits of Washington and Lincoln while classrooms can’t afford supplies.

our 250th and world cup going on at the same time, with the mango moron in charge. it's going to be a complete crap show of a summer

 

[Tidewater]

View attachment 54168

Great, another Florida “education” bill that does nothing for education. If it’s not vouchers draining the budget, it’s performative gestures like hanging portraits of Washington and Lincoln while classrooms can’t afford supplies.

Agreed. Lincoln belongs in nobody's classroom.

 

[Bodhisattva]

I'm of the strange belief that the goal of education funding is to do the best for our children, not bureaucrats and unions. Yet, the statists are only about protecting the bureaucrats and unions. My wife and I sent Lily to a private school when we lived in Virginia because the education was much better than the public alternative. When we moved to Florida, we had the choice (based on merit) to move Lily to an out-of-zone public school that better fit her career goals. I sure am glad we were not poor and living in a district that had a trash school system. Lily would have been stuck there. Too bad most poor kids are forced to attend terrible schools, per the left's wishes. We should fund the student not the system.

 

[Its On A Slab]

Maybe it's just me(thanks, Tim James for the catch phrase ), but "school choice" should mean that you should be free to send your kids to any public school, regardless of where you live or are zoned.

Randy(Valujet, RIP) and I went to a crappy private school that was cobbled together because we were all zoned to awful, crime-ridden public schools. There was an awesome public school district (that we lived 1/2 mile from the border) that I was forced to leave due to a desegregation order. And we were left with very little choice.

When I had kids, I was damned determined that my kids would never have to go thru with something like that. When I started looking to move out the Southeast for my career, schools were among the top priorities in where we ended up. We ended up in suburban Omaha and the school were excellent.

The curious thing about once we got there was the prevalence of Catholic schools, and the neighbors always complaining about how expensive they were. I was scratching my head, thinking "you ALREADY have an excellent school that you've paid for in prop taxes."

 

[Bodhisattva]

I don't understand the anti-school-choice argument, other than it's for unions and bureaucrats to protect their well-paid turf. I can't comprehend a parent burying the statist nonsense and wanting to trap their kids (or, more accurately, someone else's kids) in a horrible school system. The argument that we must continue to fund bad schools is insane. How about funding more good schools? I don't care what they are - public, private, charter, etc. - because if there is more choice, competition will drive better quality, and parents can decide what is best for their kids.

In Virginia, there was no choice. (Maybe that has changed.) Lily would have gone to a mediocre at best public school. Fortunately, Catholic schools are not very expensive, so we paid the extra and got her a great education. Florida has great public schools and choice. We are zoned for Nease HS, but Lily was able to test into Ponte Vedra HS (both are A-rated schools and only a few miles from our house in different directions) because the latter had a STEM academy. (We absolutely love the academy options that the schools here have!) The extra math and sciences classes prepared her very well for nursing school. If Lily would have been forced to attend an inner city government/union-controlled school, she would be behind the curve and not set up for a successful career. Someone is going to have to explain to me why trapping kids in bad schools - which is what we have in many areas of the country - is desirable policy.

 

[Huckleberry]

I don't understand the anti-school-choice argument, other than it's for unions and bureaucrats to protect their well-paid turf. I can't comprehend a parent burying the statist nonsense and wanting to trap their kids (or, more accurately, someone else's kids) in a horrible school system. The argument that we must continue to fund bad schools is insane. How about funding more good schools? I don't care what they are - public, private, charter, etc. - because if there is more choice, competition will drive better quality, and parents can decide what is best for their kids.

In Virginia, there was no choice. (Maybe that has changed.) Lily would have gone to a mediocre at best public school. Fortunately, Catholic schools are not very expensive, so we paid the extra and got her a great education. Florida has great public schools and choice. We are zoned for Nease HS, but Lily was able to test into Ponte Vedra HS (both are A-rated schools and only a few miles from our house in different directions) because latter had a STEM academy. (We absolutely love the academy options that the schools here have!) The extra math and sciences classes prepared her very well for nursing school. If Lily would have been forced to attend an inner city government/union-controlled school, she would be behind the curve and not set up for a successful career. Someone is going to have to explain to me why trapping kids in bad schools - which is what we have in many areas of the country - is desirable policy.

I’d like to address this local teachers union bashing first. What inner city school in St Johns County (actually, any public school anywhere in Florida) qualifies as union-controlled?

 

[Bodhisattva]

I’d like to address this local teachers union bashing first. What inner city school in St Johns County (actually, any public school anywhere in Florida) qualifies as union-controlled?

St Johns County schools are excellent. Unions don't call the shots. I certainly witnessed how unions contributed to ruining schools in places like DC and Baltimore.

Care to show me how less choice is a good idea?

 

[Its On A Slab]

I don't understand the anti-school-choice argument, other than it's for unions and bureaucrats to protect their well-paid turf. I can't comprehend a parent burying the statist nonsense and wanting to trap their kids (or, more accurately, someone else's kids) in a horrible school system. The argument that we must continue to fund bad schools is insane. How about funding more good schools? I don't care what they are - public, private, charter, etc. - because if there is more choice, competition will drive better quality, and parents can decide what is best for their kids.

In Virginia, there was no choice. (Maybe that has changed.) Lily would have gone to a mediocre at best public school. Fortunately, Catholic schools are not very expensive, so we paid the extra and got her a great education. Florida has great public schools and choice. We are zoned for Nease HS, but Lily was able to test into Ponte Vedra HS (both are A-rated schools and only a few miles from our house in different directions) because latter had a STEM academy. (We absolutely love the academy options that the schools here have!) The extra math and sciences classes prepared her very well for nursing school. If Lily would have been forced to attend an inner city government/union-controlled school, she would be behind the curve and not set up for a successful career. Someone is going to have to explain to me why trapping kids in bad schools - which is what we have in many areas of the country - is desirable policy.

The victors always write the history. The Clinton (MS) public school district lauds itself for being among the "1st to integrate" in 1970 with the desegregation order. When in fact, the real reason they set the boundaries at the city limits was because they feared the influx of African-Americans, most of whom lived in the rural section of our metro area. As it stood, they only had 2-3 black kids in each class.

I have had a life-long chip on my shoulder about this, but at least I put it to good use, to make sure that, if I had anything to do with it, my kids wouldn't suffer. Hell, they had every opportunity to do what they wanted to do. Theater, radio station, show choir, band, track and field. The high school even had a swimming pool. lol

 

[Huckleberry]

St Johns County schools are excellent. Unions don't call the shots. I certainly witnessed how unions contributed to ruining schools in places like DC and Baltimore.

Care to show me how less choice is a good idea?

Florida’s voucher system isn’t “choice.” It’s a massive transfer of public money into private institutions with almost no oversight. Public schools have to take every kid who walks in the door. Voucher schools don’t. They can turn away students with disabilities, behavior challenges, LGBTQ kids, or any child who needs real support. That’s not empowering families—it’s letting schools hand-pick the easiest students and send the hardest ones back to underfunded public classrooms.

And while public schools are still required to run buses, meet class-size limits, hire certified teachers, provide ESE services, and administer state tests, the legislature keeps siphoning their budgets to subsidize private tuition for families who were already in private school. That’s not “helping poor kids escape failing schools.” It’s taxpayers footing the bill for upper-middle-class parents who never planned to use public education at all.

Also, we’re now we’re at the point where a public school with vacant rooms has to hand them over to a for-profit charter at no cost. The district still has to cover everything—transportation, supervision, custodial staff, lunchrooms, athletic facilities—every expense that keeps a school running. Meanwhile, the charter company pockets the funding for itself. That’s not “choice.” That’s a taxpayer-funded subsidy for a private business, propped up by draining resources from the very public schools we keep pretending to “fix.”

There’s also a basic question nobody pushing vouchers wants to answer: who exactly is going to teach in all these new voucher schools as public school enrollment declines? Florida is already dead last in the nation in average teacher pay. Districts can’t recruit or retain enough staff now. Are voucher schools magically going to pay more than public schools—plus health insurance, retirement benefits, and professional support—while charging tuition that’s often lower than the per-pupil cost of a standard public education? It’s fantasy math.

And on top of all that, Florida’s vouchers come with zero academic accountability. Public schools must prove students are learning. Many voucher schools don’t even have to use certified teachers or a standard curriculum, let alone show results. Public money with no public standards is not reform—it’s a recipe for disappointment and corruption.

If someone wants to defend school choice, fine—but at least acknowledge what Florida’s version actually does: it drains public schools, lowers transparency, subsidizes the already-privileged, and leaves the hardest-to-teach kids in the least-funded system while pretending a brand-new workforce of highly paid and qualified private-school teachers will somehow materialize. That’s not “choice”; it’s abandonment.

 

[92tide]

Florida’s voucher system isn’t “choice.” It’s a massive transfer of public money into private institutions with almost no oversight. Public schools have to take every kid who walks in the door. Voucher schools don’t. They can turn away students with disabilities, behavior challenges, LGBTQ kids, or any child who needs real support. That’s not empowering families—it’s letting schools hand-pick the easiest students and send the hardest ones back to underfunded public classrooms.

And while public schools are still required to run buses, meet class-size limits, hire certified teachers, provide ESE services, and administer state tests, the legislature keeps siphoning their budgets to subsidize private tuition for families who were already in private school. That’s not “helping poor kids escape failing schools.” It’s taxpayers footing the bill for upper-middle-class parents who never planned to use public education at all.

Also, we’re now we’re at the point where a public school with vacant rooms has to hand them over to a for-profit charter at no cost. The district still has to cover everything—transportation, supervision, custodial staff, lunchrooms, athletic facilities—every expense that keeps a school running. Meanwhile, the charter company pockets the funding for itself. That’s not “choice.” That’s a taxpayer-funded subsidy for a private business, propped up by draining resources from the very public schools we keep pretending to “fix.”

There’s also a basic question nobody pushing vouchers wants to answer: who exactly is going to teach in all these new voucher schools as public school enrollment declines? Florida is already dead last in the nation in average teacher pay. Districts can’t recruit or retain enough staff now. Are voucher schools magically going to pay more than public schools—plus health insurance, retirement benefits, and professional support—while charging tuition that’s often lower than the per-pupil cost of a standard public education? It’s fantasy math.

And on top of all that, Florida’s vouchers come with zero academic accountability. Public schools must prove students are learning. Many voucher schools don’t even have to use certified teachers or a standard curriculum, let alone show results. Public money with no public standards is not reform—it’s a recipe for disappointment and corruption.

If someone wants to defend school choice, fine—but at least acknowledge what Florida’s version actually does: it drains public schools, lowers transparency, subsidizes the already-privileged, and leaves the hardest-to-teach kids in the least-funded system while pretending a brand-new workforce of highly paid and qualified private-school teachers will somehow materialize. That’s not “choice”; it’s abandonment.

simple solutions always hand wave away the details

 

[Its On A Slab]

Florida’s voucher system isn’t “choice.” It’s a massive transfer of public money into private institutions with almost no oversight. Public schools have to take every kid who walks in the door. Voucher schools don’t. They can turn away students with disabilities, behavior challenges, LGBTQ kids, or any child who needs real support. That’s not empowering families—it’s letting schools hand-pick the easiest students and send the hardest ones back to underfunded public classrooms.

And while public schools are still required to run buses, meet class-size limits, hire certified teachers, provide ESE services, and administer state tests, the legislature keeps siphoning their budgets to subsidize private tuition for families who were already in private school. That’s not “helping poor kids escape failing schools.” It’s taxpayers footing the bill for upper-middle-class parents who never planned to use public education at all.

Also, we’re now we’re at the point where a public school with vacant rooms has to hand them over to a for-profit charter at no cost. The district still has to cover everything—transportation, supervision, custodial staff, lunchrooms, athletic facilities—every expense that keeps a school running. Meanwhile, the charter company pockets the funding for itself. That’s not “choice.” That’s a taxpayer-funded subsidy for a private business, propped up by draining resources from the very public schools we keep pretending to “fix.”

There’s also a basic question nobody pushing vouchers wants to answer: who exactly is going to teach in all these new voucher schools as public school enrollment declines? Florida is already dead last in the nation in average teacher pay. Districts can’t recruit or retain enough staff now. Are voucher schools magically going to pay more than public schools—plus health insurance, retirement benefits, and professional support—while charging tuition that’s often lower than the per-pupil cost of a standard public education? It’s fantasy math.

And on top of all that, Florida’s vouchers come with zero academic accountability. Public schools must prove students are learning. Many voucher schools don’t even have to use certified teachers or a standard curriculum, let alone show results. Public money with no public standards is not reform—it’s a recipe for disappointment and corruption.

If someone wants to defend school choice, fine—but at least acknowledge what Florida’s version actually does: it drains public schools, lowers transparency, subsidizes the already-privileged, and leaves the hardest-to-teach kids in the least-funded system while pretending a brand-new workforce of highly paid and qualified private-school teachers will somehow materialize. That’s not “choice”; it’s abandonment.

Bingo! This is where the semantics of "school choice" gets really sneaky and tricky. They want to use these vouchers to send their kids to private schools. When they already are paying (sometimes thru the nose) for a place in public schools.

School choice should only mean the freedom to choose the school district for your kid, regardless of where you live. We shouldn't be subsidizing your kid's parochial education. That's YOUR choice.

The whole voucher system is simply yet another tool in the arsenal of those who want to end public education.

 

[Bodhisattva]

The victors always write the history. The Clinton (MS) public school district lauds itself for being among the "1st to integrate" in 1970 with the desegregation order. When in fact, the real reason they set the boundaries at the city limits was because they feared the influx of African-Americans, most of whom lived in the rural section of our metro area. As it stood, they only had 2-3 black kids in each class.

I have had a life-long chip on my shoulder about this, but at least I put it to good use, to make sure that, if I had anything to do with it, my kids wouldn't suffer. Hell, they had every opportunity to do what they wanted to do. Theater, radio station, show choir, band, track and field. The high school even had a swimming pool. lol

My earliest years were in the sticks west of Mobile. Schools were terrible - portable classrooms with hit-or-miss window unit A/C. I fondly remember regularly sweating and having pages of books and loose leaf paper sticking to my forearms and being dizzy from the heat and humidity. Overcrowded classrooms, non-functioning bathrooms, textbooks that were ancient, teachers with substandard command of grammar, etc. Like you, I hated it but remembered it. I vowed to improve myself on my own if I had to and to never subject my future children to this garbage.

Fast forward to Lily's high school years. She had the choice of dozens of academy programs - STEM, aerospace, IT, theater, etc. They had all the lab equipment they needed. It is paradise compared to what I had as a kid. (Back in my day ...)

 

[Its On A Slab]

My earliest years were in the sticks west of Mobile. Schools were terrible - portable classrooms with hit-or-miss window unit A/C. I fondly remember regularly sweating and having pages of books and loose leaf paper sticking to my forearms and being dizzy from the heat and humidity. Overcrowded classrooms, non-functioning bathrooms, textbooks that were ancient, teachers with substandard command of grammar, etc. Like you, I hated it but remembered it. I vowed to improve myself on my own if I had to and to never subject my future children to this garbage.

Fast forward to Lily's high school years. She had the choice of dozens of academy programs - STEM, aerospace, IT, theater, etc. They had all the lab equipment they needed. It is paradise compared to what I had as a kid. (Back in my day ...)

The day after my high school graduation, I could truly understand what someone feels like when they are paroled from prison. I hated every single day of my jr high and high school years. I vowed: never again.