Issues in Education

[RollTide_HTTR]

The educators I know in Memphis have all been watching this with anticipation, and without exception that all said that the return to phonics was a massive part of the turnaround.

As many here know, my wife and I (mainly she) home-educated our kids. We saw the changes in curriculum that were making the rounds 25 years ago and felt they would be detrimental, so despite neither of us having a background in education, we dove in headfirst. All of our kiddos have done exceptionally well in college and we attribute that to the fact that we poured ourselves into their education AND we stuck with the tried and true methods of learning that have served us for decades.

In fact, my wife has taught a bunch of friends kids / grandkids to read that were struggling with the methods the schools in TN still use. She just uses phonics and the kids take to it like a fish to water.

I'm currently in a similar place. I have been diving deep(in some cases maybe too deep like reading a neuroscience book that goes a bit over my head to be honest) into what we actually know about reading, teaching reading and learning to read. It definitely seems like there were some MASSIVE mistakes in how we teach reading in the US for a while there.

 

[arthurdawg]

The educators I know in Memphis have all been watching this with anticipation, and without exception that all said that the return to phonics was a massive part of the turnaround.

As many here know, my wife and I (mainly she) home-educated our kids. We saw the changes in curriculum that were making the rounds 25 years ago and felt they would be detrimental, so despite neither of us having a background in education, we dove in headfirst. All of our kiddos have done exceptionally well in college and we attribute that to the fact that we poured ourselves into their education AND we stuck with the tried and true methods of learning that have served us for decades.

In fact, my wife has taught a bunch of friends kids / grandkids to read that were struggling with the methods the schools in TN still use. She just uses phonics and the kids take to it like a fish to water.

I was taught to read using phonics by my preschool teacher. I think it is a useful tool indeed.

 

[AWRTR]

The educators I know in Memphis have all been watching this with anticipation, and without exception that all said that the return to phonics was a massive part of the turnaround.

As many here know, my wife and I (mainly she) home-educated our kids. We saw the changes in curriculum that were making the rounds 25 years ago and felt they would be detrimental, so despite neither of us having a background in education, we dove in headfirst. All of our kiddos have done exceptionally well in college and we attribute that to the fact that we poured ourselves into their education AND we stuck with the tried and true methods of learning that have served us for decades.

In fact, my wife has taught a bunch of friends kids / grandkids to read that were struggling with the methods the schools in TN still use. She just uses phonics and the kids take to it like a fish to water.

That's how I learned in the 1980's in Alabama. We don't have to always try to reinvent the wheel. When the wheel we have works well why do we need a new one?

The introduction of too much personal technology into the classroom is also a problem. We should use technology and help kids understand it, but a pencil and a piece of paper is necessary. We learn better in a low technology environment.

 

[arthurdawg]

That's how I learned in the 1980's in Alabama. We don't have to always try to reinvent the wheel. When the wheel we have works well why do we need a new one?

The introduction of too much personal technology into the classroom is also a problem. We should use technology and help kids understand it, but a pencil and a piece of paper is necessary. We learn better in a low technology environment.

There is excellent data showing pencil and paper learning is superior in many aspects to tech. And that is without the whole tech distraction issue. There are lots of inputs though, my daughter is a fifth grade teacher and the state legislature is preaching phonics and pencils and paper, and then passes a bill to force schools to buy tons of computers and use them multiple hours a day... Someone getting paid no doubt...

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

There is excellent data showing pencil and paper learning is superior in many aspects to tech. And that is without the whole tech distraction issue. There are lots of inputs though, my daughter is a fifth grade teacher and the state legislature is preaching phonics and pencils and paper, and then passes a bill to force schools to buy tons of computers and use them multiple hours a day... Someone getting paid no doubt...

There is a very high priced private school(I think close to $50k a year now) in my area, where our current president used to send his son. And they are very heavily advertised as being focused on research based learning. But, for a time they also pushed a ton of tech in school (this may have changed idk) including for elementary school kids. It was part of how they justified the cost IIRC.

It always seemed insane to me

 

[arthurdawg]

There is a very high priced private school(I think close to $50k a year now) in my area, where our current president used to send his son. And they are very heavily advertised as being focused on research based learning. But, for a time they also pushed a ton of tech in school (this may have changed idk) including for elementary school kids. It was part of how they justified the cost IIRC.

It always seemed insane to me

Abraham Lincoln wrote his letters in the dirt over and over...

But yes, I think tech poses so many logistical issues, particularly in younger kids.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

Abraham Lincoln wrote his letters in the dirt over and over...

But yes, I think tech poses so many logistical issues, particularly in younger kids.

IIRC they were giving ipads to very young kids (i think kindergarten) my nephew was in their preschool but I can't remember all the details. It was definitely too much tech. Granted, my nephew is now 12 so this was 10 years ago

 

[Bamabuzzard]

There is excellent data showing pencil and paper learning is superior in many aspects to tech. And that is without the whole tech distraction issue. There are lots of inputs though, my daughter is a fifth grade teacher and the state legislature is preaching phonics and pencils and paper, and then passes a bill to force schools to buy tons of computers and use them multiple hours a day... Someone getting paid no doubt...

Here's another fun educational/brain fact. My wife told me this years ago when schools stopped teaching kids how to write in cursive.

 

[75thru79]

Here's another fun educational/brain fact. My wife told me this years ago when schools stopped teaching kids how to write in cursive.

I'm sorry but I'm not buying the idea that "writing in cursive" as any better than writing using block letters or sign language or braille. Take away the word "cursive" and it can make sense.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I'm sorry but I'm not buying the idea that "writing in cursive" as any better than writing using block letters or sign language or braille. Take away the word "cursive" and it can make sense.

From my understanding, there's been enough research to make this claim. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm an accountant, not an educator. I'm just going by what my wife told me more than a handful of years ago. She's got her masters in education and I'm sure she learned or "heard" that about cursive writing in her education or continuing education. Other than your opinion, what evidence do you have to say the claim is hog wash?

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

I'm sorry but I'm not buying the idea that "writing in cursive" as any better than writing using block letters or sign language or braille. Take away the word "cursive" and it can make sense.

I'm not an expert but this is a topic I've been reading a lot about recently. I think I largely agree with you that cursive probably isn't uniquely helpful.

However, it does have some benefits and one point I heard made that at least sounds reasonable to me is that there are only so many things you can teach young children in a school day. And cursive at least helps some with fine motor skills, writing proficiency and can be helpful for students that struggle writing print.

However, I would not be surprised to learn if in the very early years cursive could hurt grapheme identification because it adds too large of a cognitive load.

 

[arthurdawg]

I mean... I learned to write in cursive... Not saying anyone (including me) can read what I write...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I write in a hybrid, connected block system, which, I hope is legible. The other evening, I came across Thomas Jefferson's note on the D of C. The Declaration is written in a script which is very formal and hard for me to read. To my surprise, his notes are written in the cursive which I learned in school and were very legible...

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I mean... I learned to write in cursive... Not saying anyone (including me) can read what I write...

That became my issue in HS.

My cursive wasn’t legible to even me anymore much less my teachers.

I can still read legible cursive written by people with really good pensmanship.

My print/manuscript handwriting isn’t great either to be fair.

It looks like someone gave a pen to a Chicken.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

I write in a hybrid, connected block system, which, I hope is legible. The other evening, I came across Thomas Jefferson's note on the D of C. The Declaration is written in a script which is very formal and hard for me to read. To my surprise, his notes are written in the cursive which I learned in school and were very legible...

That is one of the arguments for cursive that I've heard. It helps to be able to read cursive for reading some historical documents.

That and it helps you develop a signature which is a bit funny to me.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

That is one of the arguments for cursive that I've heard. It helps to be able to read cursive for reading some historical documents.

That and it helps you develop a signature which is a bit funny to me.

My daughters mentioned not long ago that my signature was missing some letters. I just said that, yeah, that happened after a few tens of thousands of times of signing your name...

 

[DzynKingRTR]

That is one of the arguments for cursive that I've heard. It helps to be able to read cursive for reading some historical documents.

That and it helps you develop a signature which is a bit funny to me.

In architecture, you don't use cursive at all. Even hand written stuff, especially in school, is printed. At one point my handwritten stuff became a weird hybrid print/cursive that few people could read.

My daughters mentioned not long ago that my signature was missing some letters. I just said that, yeah, that happened after a few tens of thousands of times of signing your name...

My signature is missing some letters as well. Initialing something is even weirder. This is one of my teacher's fault for wanting us to have a creative unique way to initial something. Mine doesn't even look like my actual initials.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

In architecture, you don't use cursive at all. Even hand written stuff, especially in school, is printed. At one point my handwritten stuff became a weird hybrid print/cursive that few people could read.


My signature is missing some letters as well. Initiating something is even weirder. This is one of my teacher's fault for wanting us to have a creative unique way to initial something. Mine doesn't even look like my actual initials.

This instantly made me think of Greg Maddux’s signature

How is that a ‘G’ or ‘M’ ?!! Lol

 

[DzynKingRTR]

This instantly made me think of Greg Maddux’s signature

How that a ‘G’ or ‘M’ ?!! Lol

I can see it. Mine is pretty close to that. My last name does start with a 'G'.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

In architecture, you don't use cursive at all. Even hand written stuff, especially in school, is printed. At one point my handwritten stuff became a weird hybrid print/cursive that few people could read.


My signature is missing some letters as well. Initiating something is even weirder. This is one of my teacher's fault for wanting us to have a creative unique way to initial something. Mine doesn't even look like my actual initials.

Occasionally, usually for the government, they want your full name signed. It almost breaks my hand...