Nick Saban says Crimson Tide football players safer at Alabama than 'running around at home'

bamamc1

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I’m at a loss here. We all love college football or we wouldn’t be here. That being said, I was absent the day they taught medical school at the University of North Alabama. I’m selfish because I want to see football. At the same time, I have a 13 year old that’s about to start school one week from tomorrow. May the Lord guide all whom are making these decisions. I’m glad it’s not me.
 

NationalTitles18

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Yeah, but my point was not that no Covid patients end up with myocarditis, just that the data on how many Covid patients end up presenting myocarditis is an unknown. Is it 10%? 50%? 0.00001% We probably don't know because if I got Covid and survived, they would probably send me home and tell me to come back in three-six months to see if I had long-term damage to lungs or heart.
Maybe we do know how pervasive long-term heart or lung damage is. I don't.
They do know. Last I heard it was about 1/4, according to a heart specialist. I don't have the link right now. Some studies have higher numbers than that so I was a bit surprised at the lower number, which I think may be attributable to age differences.
 
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bamamc1

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I’m at a loss here. We all love college football or we wouldn’t be here. That being said, I was absent the day they taught medical school at the University of North Alabama. I’m selfish because I want to see football. At the same time, I have a 13 year old that’s about to start school one week from tomorrow. May the Lord guide all whom are making these decisions. I’m glad it’s not me.
NT 17, that’s the biggest honor I’ve gotten on here seriously. Thanks so much.
 
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NationalTitles18

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NT 17, that’s the biggest honor I’ve gotten on here seriously. Thanks so much.
Brother, we ALL want college football. Maybe it's too big a part of my life, but I watch every chance I get any day of the week. Still, we want everyone to be safe. We want everyone to be well. We do want the good Lord to guide their decision-making (along with the science). You said what any sane person is thinking - if it's safe let them play and if not, well...
 

KrAzY3

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The thing that I'm a bit perplexed by is the notion some people seem to have that if there is no football season, these players are just going to be isolating themselves at home or something.

When the NBA did the bubble, their testing protocols discovered several players had Covid and didn't know it. None have caught Covid in the bubble, but the testing protocols detected the virus and prevented the spread of it. I know of a few instances in which football players had the virus, and didn't have any idea until they got on campus and were tested. That's not the football program spreading the virus, that's the program detecting the virus and preventing further spread.

The question here is not will football players catch the virus. The question is simply will more football players catch the virus than if there is no season? I really don't see much of an elevated chance of catching it during games for example, given the size of the field, the infrequency of contact, the creation of new facemasks, etc... furthermore I have to agree with Saban's general sentiments. To give one small example, my wife's workplace has over 1,000 people and since it was essential it never shut down. They were able to avoid major outbreaks due to establishing good protocols.

A program like Alabama can give superior testing, supervision, education, medical care, etc... than if these guys are left to their own devices. To me, this is more about avoiding liability than actually keeping these guys safe. If there is no season and they get sick away from the program, then they can't sue the program. If they get sick while participating? That creates liability and that's the real reason I think we're seeing conferences back out of the season, not necessarily what's safest just what's safer financially.
 

81usaf92

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The thing that I'm a bit perplexed by is the notion some people seem to have that if there is no football season, these players are just going to be isolating themselves at home or something.

When the NBA did the bubble, their testing protocols discovered several players had Covid and didn't know it. None have caught Covid in the bubble, but the testing protocols detected the virus and prevented the spread of it. I know of a few instances in which football players had the virus, and didn't have any idea until they got on campus and were tested. That's not the football program spreading the virus, that's the program detecting the virus and preventing further spread.

The question here is not will football players catch the virus. The question is simply will more football players catch the virus than if there is no season? I really don't see much of an elevated chance of catching it during games for example, given the size of the field, the infrequency of contact, the creation of new facemasks, etc... furthermore I have to agree with Saban's general sentiments. To give one small example, my wife's workplace has over 1,000 people and since it was essential it never shut down. They were able to avoid major outbreaks due to establishing good protocols.

A program like Alabama can give superior testing, supervision, education, medical care, etc... than if these guys are left to their own devices. To me, this is more about avoiding liability than actually keeping these guys safe. If there is no season and they get sick away from the program, then they can't sue the program. If they get sick while participating? That creates liability and that's the real reason I think we're seeing conferences back out of the season, not necessarily what's safest just what's safer financially.
I think where the “safer with the team” argument could be cut to Swiss cheese is that with or without a season the players are still student athletes and will still be allowed to utilize everything they are entitled to regardless of if there is a season or not. Which includes university housing and hospitals. So as long as campuses are open then I would assume that student athletes would be on campus and not at home.

I still think the biggest worry for a college football season besides someone dying is a Marlins and cardinals type situation where it shuts down 4-5 games at a time.
 

KrAzY3

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I think where the “safer with the team” argument could be cut to Swiss cheese is that with or without a season the players are still student athletes and will still be allowed to utilize everything they are entitled to regardless of if there is a season or not. Which includes university housing and hospitals. So as long as campuses are open then I would assume that student athletes would be on campus and not at home.
Does this not also rip the argument for ending the season to shreds as well? Everything I've read indicated they'd still be on campus, and still be doing activities, just not playing games. So this really all comes down to a few hours on the field a week?

Where Saban's argument comes into play, and how I felt about the situation prior to that, is that the most powerful incentive you can have to keep these players safe and to avoid risky behavior is by having the season. You can say look, here are the rules, if you don't obey them you do not play.

You take away the season, what then? We've already established they're still on campus and doing activities, so they're not isolated. They're just acting without as much supervision...

This is a terrible situation, my brother-in-law died of complications due to Covid recently. I'm not trying to make light of any of this, but I do thing there has to be some pragmatism here. If some games get cancelled, that's ok. But if the entire season gets cancelled, I'm not sure that's actually safer for the players.
 

MOAN

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Does this not also rip the argument for ending the season to shreds as well? Everything I've read indicated they'd still be on campus, and still be doing activities, just not playing games. So this really all comes down to a few hours on the field a week?

Where Saban's argument comes into play, and how I felt about the situation prior to that, is that the most powerful incentive you can have to keep these players safe and to avoid risky behavior is by having the season. You can say look, here are the rules, if you don't obey them you do not play.

You take away the season, what then? We've already established they're still on campus and doing activities, so they're not isolated. They're just acting without as much supervision...

This is a terrible situation, my brother-in-law died of complications due to Covid recently. I'm not trying to make light of any of this, but I do thing there has to be some pragmatism here. If some games get cancelled, that's ok. But if the entire season gets cancelled, I'm not sure that's actually safer for the players.
I agree. Football players will be majorly looked after because of their importance to the University and the bottom line. I wonder though who is responsible, liable for allowing students on campus should they contract the virus at school? Most students are not in the shape of an athlete and from what I gather are at a higher risk than athletes in great health. Should students even be allowed on campus in classrooms?
 

81usaf92

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Does this not also rip the argument for ending the season to shreds as well? Everything I've read indicated they'd still be on campus, and still be doing activities, just not playing games. So this really all comes down to a few hours on the field a week?

Where Saban's argument comes into play, and how I felt about the situation prior to that, is that the most powerful incentive you can have to keep these players safe and to avoid risky behavior is by having the season. You can say look, here are the rules, if you don't obey them you do not play.

You take away the season, what then? We've already established they're still on campus and doing activities, so they're not isolated. They're just acting without as much supervision...

This is a terrible situation, my brother-in-law died of complications due to Covid recently. I'm not trying to make light of any of this, but I do thing there has to be some pragmatism here. If some games get cancelled, that's ok. But if the entire season gets cancelled, I'm not sure that's actually safer for the players.
But again, if we are hypothetically assuming CNS can keep everyone in line 100%, do you trust Lane Kiffin, Ed Orgeron, Kirby, and the Pirate to do it or even capable of doing it? I really feel we are heading for a repeat of the MLB’s experience of COVID and travel but on a far more excruciating scale.

I hope we have a season but with the absence of real protocol revealed and the fan attendance question not answered I have my doubts that we make it through 4 weeks without 3-4 teams under 2-3 week quarantine at the same time. There is still a small amount of time left but it’s dwindling away fast.
 
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BamaFlum

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They do know. Last I heard it was about 1/4, according to a heart specialist. I don't have the link right now. Some studies have higher numbers than that so I was a bit surprised at the lower number, which I think may be attributable to age differences.
1/4 of all cases? Severe cases, moderate, mild? Does this include asymptomatic?
 

NationalTitles18

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1/4 of all cases? Severe cases, moderate, mild? Does this include asymptomatic?

MRI scans reveal that heart damage caused by COVID-19 remains present in 78 percent of patients who test positive for -- and recover from -- the virus, a new study has revealed.

In an article published July 27 in JAMA Cardiology, investigators from Germany revealed that the majority of patients who recover from the viral infection sustain cardiovascular damage regardless of any pre-existing conditions or their severity of disease.

“The results of our study provide important insights into the prevalence of cardiovascular involvement in the early convalescent stage,” wrote the team led by Valentina Puntmann, M.D., Ph.D., from the Institute for Experimental and Translational Cardiovascular Imaging at the University Hospital Frankfurt. “Our findings demonstrate that participants with a relative paucity of pre-existing cardiovascular condition and with mostly home-based recovery had frequent cardiac inflammatory involvement, which was similar to the hospitalized sub-group with regards to severity and extent.”


In addition, the study analysis revealed that the cardiovascular damage lingers even after the acute phase of the disease has passed and patients have begun their recovery. The team identified the presence of ongoing inflammation in the heart muscle and the heart lining in most patients, pointing to two potentially dangerous heart conditions – myocarditis and pericarditis.

Consequently, they said, there is a need for more research to determine the full extent of the long-term impacts of COVID-19 on the heart.

To investigate how the virus affects the heart, Puntmann’s team evaluated 3T MRI scans from an unselected cohort of 100 patients who had recently recovered from COVID-19. To their knowledge, this was the first such study. Most patients (53 percent) were male, the average age was 46, and the majority (67 percent) recovered at home. The severity of their disease course varied from asymptomic to severe enough to require hospitalization. Pre-existing conditions present among all patients included hypertension, diabetes, previously identified coronary artery disease, asthma, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. No patient had prior heart failure or cardiomyopathy...

... Thirty-two percent of patients experienced myocardial late gadolinium enhancement, and 22 percent saw pericardial enhancement. ..

...

Even with these limitations, though, the results from this study are informative, said Clyde Yancey, M.D., chief of cardiology at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in an accompanying editorial. Not only do they point to the presence of residual left ventricular dysfunction and sustained inflammation, but they also highlight other important clinical patho-physiologies, such as clinical syndromes consistent with acute myocarditis, immunologic responses, and microvascular clot formation.

“When added to the postmortem pathological findings [from other studies,] we see that plot thickening, and we are inclined to raise a new and very evident concern that cardiomyopathy and heart failure related to COVID-19 may potentially evolve as the natural history of this infection becomes clearer,”
said Yancey, who is also the deputy editor of JAMA Cardiology. “We wish not to generate additional anxiety, but rather to incite other investigators to carefully examine existing and prospectively collect new data in other populations to confirm or refute these findings.”

_________________________________________________________

Most other studies showing similar results involved hospitalized patients. This study reveals that severity of disease did not seem to matter all that much. This and other reports raised alarm bells. Some reports have claimed that ten B1G athletes were found to have similar conditions. A former Florida St BB center in Europe recently died after "recovering" from COVID-19. I haven't seen any autopsy results on him, but I imagine similar pathologies are high on the list of differentials.


It was recognized early during the outbreak of COVID-19 that greater than 20% of patients with COVID-19 had elevations in cardiac troponin and other manifestations of cardiac injury, including impaired left ventricular ejection fraction and an elevation in type-B-natriuretic peptide [11]. The clinical aspects of these manifestations have been extensively reviewed elsewhere [44,45], but importantly, the manifestation of cardiovascular disease is a marker of a poor prognosis in COVID-19


Dean Winslow, an infectious-disease doctor at Stanford University, said research has shown as many as 20 percent of people who recover from covid-19 show cardiac abnormalities. ..

... “It’s turned out, now that we’re getting more long-term data, the virus also affects the heart,” Schneider said. “And perhaps in a very serious way.” ..

... Jonathan Kim, a sports cardiologist at Emory University, called a recent study out of Germany published in the Journal of the American Medical Association particularly concerning. Researchers gave 100 patients who had recovered from covid-19, two-thirds of whom had suffered mild or no symptoms, cardiac MRI exams. The tests showed 78 percent had some kind of cardiac abnormality, and 60 percent showed inflammation consistent with myocarditis. ...

...

The study was composed of middle-aged people, and Emery said he would expect athletes as a group to fare better. But the results — that people with mild symptoms could suffer heart complications as a result of covid-19 — still startled him and his colleagues.
The findings were bad news for everyone in a general way and scary news for athletes in a specific way. An infection of the heart can cause myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle. Myocarditis can lead to arrhythmia, cardiac arrest and death, especially in a person who doesn’t know they have it and performs rigorous exercise.


But the biggest cause for concern for cardiologists is the notion that covid-19 could lead to an increase in a condition that, in rare instances, leads to sudden death. While cases will be scarce, doctors said, the consequences demand alarm.
“The problem with the heart is if you’re wrong, you’ll end up ... dead,” Schneider said. “That’s what is so scary about the heart. A misjudgment can be fatal. That’s why it’s going to have a huge impact on sports.



__________________________________________________

So the 1/4 is the number I heard from a cardiologist in a report (I forget what outlet I heard it on). Hear we have another saying 20%.

The more important takeaway is that cardiac injury following COVID-19 appears to be fairly common, even in nonhospitalized patients. Case reports are emerging that athletes at all levels of sport are affected. The evidence for even mild COVID-19 disease causing complications of the heart lingering after "recovery" is growing. Evidence had already mounted that these and similar heart issues have been a major driver of severe disease and death in those sick enough to be hospitalized. Now the new evidence raises concern levels, especially for athletes, who put a lot of demand on their hearts already.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions that are provoking more studies. More information will come out in time.
 
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