Off Week Discussion/OL/Running Game/Play Calling

[irvingtontide]

On the one 4th down pass the RW dropped, the ball was tipped coming out of Ty's hand it it fluttered badly. In RWs defense, tipped balls are hard to judge especially when you have to break off the route you are already running.

Agreed Tys throw into double coverage was a real bad throw he got lucky was not INTed.

And on the drive right before the half, I thought he pushed a deep ball that should had been an underneath throw to at least set us up for a FG try before the time expired. We were around midfield with about 1 minute and didn't take advantage of putting any points on the board. Another "small thing" that adds up with all these other misses.

The double coverage throw was a bad read but if you watch from the all 22 Rico is getting mugged for almost 20 yards with no PI call on that play. He would’ve atleast had a 50/50 with the safety.

 

[gtgilbert]

Obviously that's what the coaches think. I'm more asking if anyone has anything concrete as to why. I missed a good chunk of this last game but every other game I've seen it seems like Fromby is struggling in pass pro

Formby is for sure, but I am not sure MC knows what to do yet. On one of the sacks that got attributed to Jam Miller for not picking up the blitz, MC had dropped so deep trailing the tight end block to potentially double team that edge rusher that he left a massive wide open gap for the blitzer to be able to easily make a move on jam So even though it wasn't directly attributable to MC he certainly didn't do what he should have done to make it harder for the blitzer to get through the gap. MC never even looked back inside to see if there was anybody else coming or if anybody else needed help even though the tight end actually had the edge rusher relatively well blocked. He's probably still just got some learning to do before he's fully ready to be a starter.

 

[Rkharley98]

Biggest thing in the off week, rest, both physically and mentally. Awesome stretch we just finished 5-0. Time to get ready for the home stretch. RTR

 

[Power Eye]

Looking at a couple film reviews of the game yesterday, some of Ty’s deep passes weren’t as off as they seemed in the moment. One pass to Bernard was pretty blatant uncalled DPI. Another pass to Bernard all the way at the goal line was actually thrown great but Bernard mistimed it, jumped when he should have just taken another step, and jumped early at that. Williams dropped another impressive 4th down pass that hit him in the hands. Another deep pass to Williams, Williams was being held all the way down the sideline- uncalled. He also had another great deep ball that would have been a TD but the SC DB made an amazing leap from behind and knocked it away with his fingertips.

Ty’s two biggest errors in my mind were (1) his deep EZ pass on I think a 3rd down when the WR did not have separation AND had a safety over the top (SC dropped the pick), and there was a wide wide open TE about 15yds down the field he could have easily hit. And (2) His sail pass to Bernard in the second half. He also had ~2 deep balls that were thrown too far, which seems to be his most common problem in hitting those.

Some of his issues Saturday were a result of being forced off his spot by the pass rush before even completing his drop- the 5 step drop went away pretty quickly in the game.

Anyways, he can definitely improve his deep ball, but a chunk of it was just bad luck and inches of difference.

I agree it’s not completely on Ty, and maybe not even 50%, but I don’t recall a long TD pass all season, and I mean one that wasn’t a catch and run. There have been drops, poor judgements by the receivers, and PI’s, but Ty just hasn’t hit on several. I’m sure it will happen and it’s probably partially just bad luck that it hasn’t happened, but I do feel like it’s the lone deficiency in his game.

 

[gman4tide]

I agree it’s not completely on Ty, and maybe not even 50%, but I don’t recall a long TD pass all season, and I mean one that wasn’t a catch and run. There have been drops, poor judgements by the receivers, and PI’s, but Ty just hasn’t hit on several. I’m sure it will happen and it’s probably partially just bad luck that it hasn’t happened, but I do feel like it’s the lone deficiency in his game.

Thats ok, i'll take 70% on 5-15yd passes all game long. Look how many long passes someone else hit last year and what'd that get us?

 

[tideindc]

Agreed... The ability to make that first man miss was a staple and trademark of Saban backs from Coffee up to Najee. We really miss that after 2020.

We’ve actually had two legit NFL backs after 2020….B Rob and J Gibbs….im sure our current stable of backs are decent and our OL does them no favors. But none of this group compares with the lineage starting with Ingram through Gibbs.

 

[Power Eye]

Thats ok, i'll take 70% on 5-15yd passes all game long. Look how many long passes someone else hit last year and what'd that get us?

It almost got us a loss Saturday by not connecting on those. If I had to choose one or the other, then I’ll take what Ty has done, but ideally I’d like both, because I think we will really need it as we go deeper into the season.

 

[Tiderollin32]

I’m no offensive coordinator or do I claim to know a ton of X’s and O’s but I will say some not all of our pass protection comes from Ty dropping back a bit too far. I’m guessing that comes from the fear of getting sacked via the interior but I noticed SC’s edge guys were just pinning their ears back knowing exactly where Ty would be on his drop backs.

As far as run plays our RB’s vision are either bad or they are all being taught to follow the blockers and no improvisation is allowed to bounce outside. The dive play doesn’t seem to work ever but we keep doing it to set up the pass on play-action.

 

[gtgilbert]

It almost got us a loss Saturday by not connecting on those. If I had to choose one or the other, then I’ll take what Ty has done, but ideally I’d like both, because I think we will really need it as we go deeper into the season.

the question should be did we really need all those long calls as several were on downs we just needed to convert? calling a 30+ yard route when its 3rd and 5 or so and we convert those midrange passes so often really seemed like a curious call, especially as much as we did it last week compared to the prior 4 weeks.

 

[gtgilbert]

I’m no offensive coordinator or do I claim to know a ton of X’s and O’s but I will say some not all of our pass protection comes from Ty dropping back a bit too far. I’m guessing that comes from the fear of getting sacked via the interior but I noticed SC’s edge guys were just pinning their ears back knowing exactly where Ty would be on his drop backs.

As far as run plays our RB’s vision are either bad or they are all being taught to follow the blockers and no improvisation is allowed to bounce outside. The dive play doesn’t seem to work ever but we keep doing it to set up the pass on play-action.

the drop depth isnt a QB decision(or should not be for an in sync offense). The depth and number of steps is related to the routes called, so that the qb reaches drop depth with his back leg when he should be prepping to throw. the OL also know this and should be adjusting how they pass pro based on that depth.

 

[rtr90]

It almost got us a loss Saturday by not connecting on those. If I had to choose one or the other, then I’ll take what Ty has done, but ideally I’d like both, because I think we will really need it as we go deeper into the season.

Ty just have it. dont think it can be improved .. GMAC was even better in that regard

 

[BamaMoon]

I’m no offensive coordinator or do I claim to know a ton of X’s and O’s but I will say some not all of our pass protection comes from Ty dropping back a bit too far. I’m guessing that comes from the fear of getting sacked via the interior but I noticed SC’s edge guys were just pinning their ears back knowing exactly where Ty would be on his drop backs.

As far as run plays our RB’s vision are either bad or they are all being taught to follow the blockers and no improvisation is allowed to bounce outside. The dive play doesn’t seem to work ever but we keep doing it to set up the pass on play-action.

In addition to Gilbert's comments, most of our passing plays call for either a 3 step or 5 step drop. Other than a slant or wide receiver screen, which is basically a catch and throw, it's all worked into the play.

TBH, Ty's footwork is a big part of his passing success. Compared to the one who shall not be named, whose footwork was awful, Ty is like a seasoned pro. Notice the times when Ty steps up in the pocket or shifts laterally. That's a trained instinct.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

This has been a good discussion thread about key things that we need to improve upon. I honestly think that a lot of this stuff isn't going to be fixed until the off season, wrt the OL play and running the ball. As several have said, I think we got what we got for this season and we might as well ride it until we can't ride it anymore. But there definitely needs to be some moves made in the offseason to fix the OL and the running game, because if Ty doesn't come back, there's no way we can expect a first time starter that is as young as Russell, to perform like Ty has performed. A lot of the reason he has peformed the way he has is because of his time in college, reps at practice and in scrimmages and just his age. For a college player he's an "older" player and that helps a lot. We really need to get the OL and running game fixed for next season just in case Ty doesn't come back.

 

[BamaMoon]

This has been a good discussion thread about key things that we need to improve upon. I honestly think that a lot of this stuff isn't going to be fixed until the off season, wrt the OL play and running the ball. As several have said, I think we got what we got for this season and we might as well ride it until we can't ride it anymore. But there definitely needs to be some moves made in the offseason to fix the OL and the running game, because if Ty doesn't come back, there's no way we can expect a first time starter that is as young as Russell, to perform like Ty has performed. A lot of the reason he has peformed the way he has is because of his time in college, reps at practice and in scrimmages and just his age. For a college player he's an "older" player and that helps a lot. We really need to get the OL and running game fixed for next season just in case Ty doesn't come back.

Almost on a completely separate (but slightly related) matter concerning Rusell, but I couldn't help but notice he and Mack were standing side by side in a timeout huddle and Russell looked ever bit as tall as Mack. I think Russell has grown an inch or two at least this year. And he looks to be adding weight too becaue his legs look alot thicker.

FWIW, your concerns about him are legit in light of a dysfunctional OL. I'm not convinced we need a run game that generates tons of yardage, because that's not the CKD offensive MO, but we've GOT to have enough improvement to be able to pick up short yardages on 3rd and/or 4th and short. Right now, we have to do it by passing.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Almost on a completely separate (but slightly related) matter concerning Rusell, but I couldn't help but notice he and Mack were standing side by side in a timeout huddle and Russell looked ever bit as tall as Mack. I think Russell has grown an inch or two at least this year. And he looks to be adding weight too becaue his legs look alot thicker.

FWIW, your concerns about him are legit in light of a dysfunctional OL. I'm not convinced we need a run game that generates tons of yardage, because that's not the CKD offensive MO, but we've GOT to have enough improvement to be able to pick up short yardages on 3rd and/or 4th and short. Right now, we have to do it by passing.

I'm sure by the start of next season, Russell will have added plenty of weight. He definitely has the frame to do so. Until shown otherwise, if he is the starter I cannot expect him to look like Ty Simpson has looked this season, but if it turns out he does, that's a huge bonus. That's why I think DeBoer and staff have got to get the OL and running game figured out. We've done it so far, but the odds are stacked against us to continue to be able to beat teams with passing and zero running game. It's just rare to be able to accomplish that for an entire season.

 

[JustNeedMe81]

This has been a good discussion thread about key things that we need to improve upon. I honestly think that a lot of this stuff isn't going to be fixed until the off season, wrt the OL play and running the ball. As several have said, I think we got what we got for this season and we might as well ride it until we can't ride it anymore. But there definitely needs to be some moves made in the offseason to fix the OL and the running game, because if Ty doesn't come back, there's no way we can expect a first time starter that is as young as Russell, to perform like Ty has performed. A lot of the reason he has peformed the way he has is because of his time in college, reps at practice and in scrimmages and just his age. For a college player he's an "older" player and that helps a lot. We really need to get the OL and running game fixed for next season when Ty doesn't come back.

 

[cdub55]

Part of the issue with running the ball outside is we are seeing defenses lining up in "Ghost 9's" making it almost impossible to reach them. This alignment is great in passing downs for speed rushers and has given Proctor fits this season. He needs to do a better job of getting depth faster on his vertical set and staying square until the defender declares an outside or inside rush move, so as to not give the defender a two way go. The big negative to this alignment is it is susceptible to easy kickouts on the counter and gives very little help to any inside run game. One of the reasons we have not seen us running outside zone to the wide side is because we are seeing this alignment quite often which forces us to be more of an A to B run team. Unfortunately to be a good A/B run team we need to get movement on the interior DL and be great at getting toe's on toe's on the inside LB's. We have been getting whipped up front for the most part at the point of attack and a stale mate is about as good as we have got most weeks. I'm not sure this is something that can be fixed altogether but I do see us continuing to work to find things that work in the run game.

 

[RammerJammer14]

the question should be did we really need all those long calls as several were on downs we just needed to convert? calling a 30+ yard route when its 3rd and 5 or so and we convert those midrange passes so often really seemed like a curious call, especially as much as we did it last week compared to the prior 4 weeks.

Looking at several of those long passes on 3rd & 4th and short, there were actually underneath routes and they were open, Ty just chose to go deep. In particular, the pass that almost got picked in the EZ was either predetermined or a very bad read. The TE was open on a release across the middle and had 10-15yds easy.

 

[BamaMoon]

Part of the issue with running the ball outside is we are seeing defenses lining up in "Ghost 9's" making it almost impossible to reach them. This alignment is great in passing downs for speed rushers and has given Proctor fits this season. He needs to do a better job of getting depth faster on his vertical set and staying square until the defender declares an outside or inside rush move, so as to not give the defender a two way go. The big negative to this alignment is it is susceptible to easy kickouts on the counter and gives very little help to any inside run game. One of the reasons we have not seen us running outside zone to the wide side is because we are seeing this alignment quite often which forces us to be more of an A to B run team. Unfortunately to be a good A/B run team we need to get movement on the interior DL and be great at getting toe's on toe's on the inside LB's. We have been getting whipped up front for the most part at the point of attack and a stale mate is about as good as we have got most weeks. I'm not sure this is something that can be fixed altogether but I do see us continuing to work to find things that work in the run game.
View attachment 53997

So defenses are baiting us to run in the A/B gap and we are taking the bait?

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Part of the issue with running the ball outside is we are seeing defenses lining up in "Ghost 9's" making it almost impossible to reach them. This alignment is great in passing downs for speed rushers and has given Proctor fits this season. He needs to do a better job of getting depth faster on his vertical set and staying square until the defender declares an outside or inside rush move, so as to not give the defender a two way go. The big negative to this alignment is it is susceptible to easy kickouts on the counter and gives very little help to any inside run game. One of the reasons we have not seen us running outside zone to the wide side is because we are seeing this alignment quite often which forces us to be more of an A to B run team. Unfortunately to be a good A/B run team we need to get movement on the interior DL and be great at getting toe's on toe's on the inside LB's. We have been getting whipped up front for the most part at the point of attack and a stale mate is about as good as we have got most weeks. I'm not sure this is something that can be fixed altogether but I do see us continuing to work to find things that work in the run game.
View attachment 53997

We normally don't run wide out of that set you've got pictured. When we go to the outside we have WR's bunched closer to the LOS to help chip the end and then get to the middle LB while the center pulls. We also have a TE on the end as well. The above offensive and defensive alignment would be good to run between the tackles but our OL doesn't get enough of a push to do that either. So my guess is in the above picture, we're passing the ball. But if we could get a decent push that defensive alignment would be good to run against because they only have five in the box against our five OL'men.

Here's the formation we normally run wide out of. I've tried to use the cursor to show where the players go after the snap. It's not a great job but it'll do.



And this is the hole it produces: