"Physical" Basketball Teams...

TIDE-HSV

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It goes without elaboration that I've been watching SEC basketball a long time. Over that time, strangely, it's the same teams, over a succession of coaches and over many years. I don't think I even have to name them. I'll add in TAMU, since they were historically members of the SWC. It seems that they come out to test the officials to see what they can get away with and, proportionately, they don't get whistled as much. On the flip side, I don't think we've ever fielded a team like that nor have we dealt well with it, as a team. We've had individuals, Herb Jones, Mo, now, but, overall, we haven't. It throws us "off our feed," so to speak.

LSU is a good example. They have assembled a team of long, strong athletes, with only a few real basketball players. (Well, one of them is actually a football player.) CNO has tried hard to change the personality of our team, but it's almost like there's something in the water in T-Town which turns us into gentlemen. He's made progress. There's no comparison in how hard his teams play vs., for example, a Gottfried team. This is something which has bothered me for a long time. The LSU game just brought it back to the surface again.

Don't get me started on officials. There are certain faces that, when I see them on the court, I know we're going to have foul trouble. Is this just my Bama bias or does anyone else see it that way?
 

Padreruf

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It goes without elaboration that I've been watching SEC basketball a long time. Over that time, strangely, it's the same teams, over a succession of coaches and over many years. I don't think I even have to name them. I'll add in TAMU, since they were historically members of the SWC. It seems that they come out to test the officials to see what they can get away with and, proportionately, they don't get whistled as much. On the flip side, I don't think we've ever fielded a team like that nor have we dealt well with it, as a team. We've had individuals, Herb Jones, Mo, now, but, overall, we haven't. It throws us "off our feed," so to speak.

LSU is a good example. They have assembled a team of long, strong athletes, with only a few real basketball players. (Well, one of them is actually a football player.) CNO has tried hard to change the personality of our team, but it's almost like there's something in the water in T-Town which turns us into gentlemen. He's made progress. There's no comparison in how hard his teams play vs., for example, a Gottfried team. This is something which has bothered me for a long time. The LSU game just brought it back to the surface again.

Don't get me started on officials. There are certain faces that, when I see them on the court, I know we're going to have foul trouble. Is this just my Bama bias or does anyone else see it that way?
I don't know about the individual officials, but going back to the 70's there was an unofficial saying, "If you're not bleeding it's not a foul, this is the SEC." UK was probably the worst, with Rick Roby, Mike Phillips, et al. (Although MSU could hold their own with anyone in the rough play department.) Alabama always had slim, fast players, but we would have our enforcer.

Most coaches blamed the emphasis on strength and muscle to Joe Hall's insistence on weight training for his big men. I blame Charles Barkley (LOL) coming in and using his size to batter taller, skinnier players.

The SEC does tolerate rougher play than the ACC -- or at least they did for a few decades. Not sure how it works now.

I rarely watch MBB until tournaments come around -- it is just too frustrating to see the inconsistency of officiating. I can only take so much, so I wait until the tourneys to build up my frustration. I record all games so I will go back and watch a good win...
 

CrimSonami

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Don't get me started on officials. There are certain faces that, when I see them on the court, I know we're going to have foul trouble. Is this just my Bama bias or does anyone else see it that way?
You're not alone. And this from a primarily FB Fan who enjoys the athleticism and speed of what Bama Basketball has become. I absolutely despise certain official groups and especially one particular whistle happy narcissist who we frequently draw. And yes, there are more than a couple SEC teams with the "HACK n' HOPE" approach, especially when they're on their own court.
 

dtgreg

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I remember Marcus Webb. I don't mind fighting fire with fire, but I don't care for the "physical" play. I prefer to see great post player moves and great shooters and shot-creators and great ball distributors. In other words, basketball.

I remember for a while when our teams couldn't score more than 65 points in a game but we could run for days and play "defense". It was an ugly game. The officials are another rant.
 
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dtgreg

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Theres physical play and then there's physical play that's not in the spirit of the game and LSU is a prime example.
I remember the "Bad Boys" of Detroit. They had a lot of talent but not as much as the Celtics or Lakers or maybe even the Bulls at the time (1984). Chuck Daly convinced the officals that the game had become "too soft" and that they should "let the players play like men". If you look at photos from before the ABA, the NBA players all looked like bar bouncers or amateur boxers.

It was a great strategy and really, their only chance. It worked. I think the game suffered, though.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I remember the "Bad Boys" of Detroit. They had a lot of talent but not as much as the Celtics or Lakers or maybe even the Bulls at the time (1984). Chuck Daly convinced the officals that the game had become "too soft" and that they should "let the players play like men". If you look at photos from before the ABA, the NBA players all looked like bar bouncers or amateur boxers.

It was a great strategy and really, their only chance. It worked. I think the game suffered, though.
One of the great rules move of the NBA was to disallow the forearm check in the middle of the back of the ball handler, which the Pistons perfected. The PG literally had to be stronger than the defender to force his way down court against the defender. Supposedly, the hand check was an NCAA priority this year, as it has been for years, IIRC. Somebody forgot to tell LSU. Or the refs. Even when it's not firm enough to impede, the weight shift, when the ball handler makes his move, is telegraphed through the fingertips...
 
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NoNC4Tubs

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It goes without elaboration that I've been watching SEC basketball a long time. Over that time, strangely, it's the same teams, over a succession of coaches and over many years. I don't think I even have to name them. I'll add in TAMU, since they were historically members of the SWC. It seems that they come out to test the officials to see what they can get away with and, proportionately, they don't get whistled as much. On the flip side, I don't think we've ever fielded a team like that nor have we dealt well with it, as a team. We've had individuals, Herb Jones, Mo, now, but, overall, we haven't. It throws us "off our feed," so to speak.

LSU is a good example. They have assembled a team of long, strong athletes, with only a few real basketball players. (Well, one of them is actually a football player.) CNO has tried hard to change the personality of our team, but it's almost like there's something in the water in T-Town which turns us into gentlemen. He's made progress. There's no comparison in how hard his teams play vs., for example, a Gottfried team. This is something which has bothered me for a long time. The LSU game just brought it back to the surface again.

Don't get me started on officials. There are certain faces that, when I see them on the court, I know we're going to have foul trouble. Is this just my Bama bias or does anyone else see it that way?
Basketball used to be a "non-contact" sport. It ain't even the same sport that it was 50 years ago... :rolleyes:

SEC Officiating needs a COMPLETE overhaul!:cool:
 
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BamaMike05

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Basketball used to be a "non-contact" sport. It ain't even the same sport that it was 50 years ago... :rolleyes:

SEC Officiating needs a COMPLETE overhaul!:cool:
The issue is not with the SEC. There is no such thing as conference specific officials in college basketball. We see many of the same ones because a number of the more regionalized. But, you could have a referee call an SEC game on a Wednesday, and on Thursday he is calling a MWC game. I have seen Doug Shows do it.
 

TIDE-HSV

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The issue is not with the SEC. There is no such thing as conference specific officials in college basketball. We see many of the same ones because a number of the more regionalized. But, you could have a referee call an SEC game on a Wednesday, and on Thursday he is calling a MWC game. I have seen Doug Shows do it.
The issue is not with the SEC. There is no such thing as conference specific officials in college basketball. We see many of the same ones because a number of the more regionalized. But, you could have a referee call an SEC game on a Wednesday, and on Thursday he is calling a MWC game. I have seen Doug Shows do it.
The issue is not with the SEC. There is no such thing as conference specific officials in college basketball. We see many of the same ones because a number of the more regionalized. But, you could have a referee call an SEC game on a Wednesday, and on Thursday he is calling a MWC game. I have seen Doug Shows do it.
The issue is not with the SEC. There is no such thing as conference specific officials in college basketball. We see many of the same ones because a number of the more regionalized. But, you could have a referee call an SEC game on a Wednesday, and on Thursday he is calling a MWC game. I have seen Doug Shows do it.
The issue is not with the SEC. There is no such thing as conference specific officials in college basketball. We see many of the same ones because a number of the more regionalized. But, you could have a referee call an SEC game on a Wednesday, and on Thursday he is calling a MWC game. I have seen Doug Shows do it.
Flight connections have a lot to do with it. Back several years ago, I did a little study and it was immediately obvious why we were getting some repeats. OTOH, some don't seem to care how far they have to fly...
 
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BamaMike05

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Flight connections have a lot to do with it. Back several years ago, I did a little study and it was immediately obvious why we were getting some repeats. OTOH, some don't seem to care how far they have to fly...
I was watching a St. Mary's game last year at midnight on a Thursday night (monetary value lol) and Doug Shows was officiating. This was the day after he just officiated our game. That is pretty ridiculous imo. It shouldn't be this way.
 

AlistarWills

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I was watching a St. Mary's game last year at midnight on a Thursday night (monetary value lol) and Doug Shows was officiating. This was the day after he just officiated our game. That is pretty ridiculous imo. It shouldn't be this way.
If these guys can handle the working multiple games per week for the few months basketball is going, they can make a killing and sit around the rest of the year doing absolutely nothing. I saw a video where various refs at different levels were asked what they made and one guy in Virginia said he made $4000/game but knew of a conference that paid out $4200/game. Do the math and let your eyes pop out.
 

cdub55

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Basketball used to be a "non-contact" sport. It ain't even the same sport that it was 50 years ago... :rolleyes:

SEC Officiating needs a COMPLETE overhaul!:cool:
I've always been told basketball is a contact sport and football is a collision sport. Sounds about right watching some of these hack-a-thons lately...
 

cdub55

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If these guys can handle the working multiple games per week for the few months basketball is going, they can make a killing and sit around the rest of the year doing absolutely nothing. I saw a video where various refs at different levels were asked what they made and one guy in Virginia said he made $4000/game but knew of a conference that paid out $4200/game. Do the math and let your eyes pop out.

Tim Donaghy would agree...:censored:
 

ROCKEE

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It goes without elaboration that I've been watching SEC basketball a long time. Over that time, strangely, it's the same teams, over a succession of coaches and over many years. I don't think I even have to name them. I'll add in TAMU, since they were historically members of the SWC. It seems that they come out to test the officials to see what they can get away with and, proportionately, they don't get whistled as much. On the flip side, I don't think we've ever fielded a team like that nor have we dealt well with it, as a team. We've had individuals, Herb Jones, Mo, now, but, overall, we haven't. It throws us "off our feed," so to speak.

LSU is a good example. They have assembled a team of long, strong athletes, with only a few real basketball players. (Well, one of them is actually a football player.) CNO has tried hard to change the personality of our team, but it's almost like there's something in the water in T-Town which turns us into gentlemen. He's made progress. There's no comparison in how hard his teams play vs., for example, a Gottfried team. This is something which has bothered me for a long time. The LSU game just brought it back to the surface again.

Don't get me started on officials. There are certain faces that, when I see them on the court, I know we're going to have foul trouble. Is this just my Bama bias or does anyone else see it that way?
Man, I think you and have same pair of Crimson colored glasses. 🤓 🤣
 

BamaMoon

Hall of Fame
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It goes without elaboration that I've been watching SEC basketball a long time. Over that time, strangely, it's the same teams, over a succession of coaches and over many years. I don't think I even have to name them. I'll add in TAMU, since they were historically members of the SWC. It seems that they come out to test the officials to see what they can get away with and, proportionately, they don't get whistled as much. On the flip side, I don't think we've ever fielded a team like that nor have we dealt well with it, as a team. We've had individuals, Herb Jones, Mo, now, but, overall, we haven't. It throws us "off our feed," so to speak.

LSU is a good example. They have assembled a team of long, strong athletes, with only a few real basketball players. (Well, one of them is actually a football player.) CNO has tried hard to change the personality of our team, but it's almost like there's something in the water in T-Town which turns us into gentlemen. He's made progress. There's no comparison in how hard his teams play vs., for example, a Gottfried team. This is something which has bothered me for a long time. The LSU game just brought it back to the surface again.

Don't get me started on officials. There are certain faces that, when I see them on the court, I know we're going to have foul trouble. Is this just my Bama bias or does anyone else see it that way?
I remember Anthony Grant's teams and most of them had well-sculpted athletes but they didn't seem like good basketball players.

Now, CNO recruits very good basketball players who are usually good athletes too.

But in terms of being physical, I think the game has become too reliant on physical contact. If you could rewind and watch a game from around 30-50 years ago, it would be shocking how the game then was more about technique, picks and cuts. Go back another 30 years and it would look even cleaner. But there's no denying physical contact is allowed more today than ever.

A couple of things I can think of that contribute to this: Putting great players in isolation and letting them go one on one is a big part of this IMO. In addition, the increased emphasis on "getting to the rim" and trying to draw fouls is a big part of this too.

I agree Earle that Bama isn't typically as physical as other teams, but I think CNO's system does a good job of counteracting that with his 3-2-1 offensive approach. If we can't get a clean look from 3 or an uncontested layoup we are seeking contact at the rim to get to the FT line.
 

BamaMoon

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I meant to comment on officiating.

I think we are all much too subjective to really see it clearly.

I can only speak for myself, but I rarely comment on officiating because it takes so much of the enjoyment out of the game if that's all I see. I also have done a little bit of it on a couple of minor levels (rec ball and intramural) and it's truly a difficult job. You can literally blow your whistle at any moment and it's impossible to "seem" fair.

I will say the thing I hate the most about officiating is a "make up call." If the call was legit, there is no reason to make up for it. If it was a mistake, you shouldn't compound that with another one and have a phantom foul.

I think we get dubbed when we compare foul counts. Just because one team has more fouls doesn't mean the other team should have the equal amount called. Now, if both teams are using the hammer approach, it would seem it should be more equal.

So maybe that's Earle's point. If other teams are being more physical, it would seem they would get more fouls called than Bama, if we aren't reciporcating with the physical play.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I meant to comment on officiating.

I think we are all much too subjective to really see it clearly.

I can only speak for myself, but I rarely comment on officiating because it takes so much of the enjoyment out of the game if that's all I see. I also have done a little bit of it on a couple of minor levels (rec ball and intramural) and it's truly a difficult job. You can literally blow your whistle at any moment and it's impossible to "seem" fair.

I will say the thing I hate the most about officiating is a "make up call." If the call was legit, there is no reason to make up for it. If it was a mistake, you shouldn't compound that with another one and have a phantom foul.

I think we get dubbed when we compare foul counts. Just because one team has more fouls doesn't mean the other team should have the equal amount called. Now, if both teams are using the hammer approach, it would seem it should be more equal.

So maybe that's Earle's point. If other teams are being more physical, it would seem they would get more fouls called than Bama, if we aren't reciporcating with the physical play.
Exactly my point. We have had games where practically our whole starting lineup ended up in foul trouble, playing our normal, low-fouling, game, and the other team was hammering us to death. It reminded me of the season when no opposing football team had an OL holding penalty when playing us...
 
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