QB Competition 2018

[Wilson Monroe]

I agree. There are so many threads now but I will leave this though here. This could be a transition year for our offensive identity. It took us a couple of years to combat the HUNH but it was well documented about the transition. Maybe we are moving back to the old way of doing things on offense and the plays and offense we saw this year were just a steps in the transformation back to the Pro-set. We are getting the young o line some good reps in blow outs so next year they will be even better. Just a thought.

Great observation. You don't just jump from one philosophy to another and learn a completely different playbook overnight.

 

[PA Tide Fan]

I look at this is a different way when measuring "taking care of the ball."

If we were more aggresive with our passing attack (not only would it open up our running game to even more success) but it would allow us to put alot more points on the scoreboard, especially against better teams.

Now, would being more aggresive in the passing game open us up to more INTs? Sure. But which is better? Throwing no INTs but not being able to move the ball, make first downs and score points? OR, scoring a bunch more points, using the incredible athletes all around you to do so, but occasionally turning over the ball? If we score 2 tds for every 1 int, with our great defense, we'll win every game we play!

CNS's aversion to TO's and therefore playing too safe may be his achilles heel in these big games.

Wow, you nailed it! I had these exact same thoughts before going to bed last night. Looking at our QB situation Tua is a much more aggressive passer and is going to try and thread the needle on some passes that Jalen would never try. Consequently Tua is always going to throw more INT's than Jalen but he's also going to complete some of those passes as well. It's that risk vs. reward that Coach Saban has to weigh. Coach Saban believes in protecting the football on offense, play field position and win with defense. So that is why he sticks with Jalen. Jalen looks for safe passes and doesn't turn it over. Coach Saban probably thinks Tua is a little too reckless with his passes. Looking back at Clemson's Deshaun Watson's career he was another aggressive passer but threw a lot of INT's. Had Watson played at Alabama I think Coach Saban would have not tolerated the amount of INT's that Watson threw. But Watson did make up for it by throwing a lot of TD's. I agree that in the big games we need to be more aggressive.

 

[TomFromBama]

Saban's statement that any possession that ends in a kick is a good possession is proof positive. I laughed when I first heard it. It is absurd. Any possession that ends in points is a good possession. Every possession that ends in anything other than points is a failed possession. I heard another coach talking about this comment after he made it - don't remember who - but he said something like, "this comes from a coach who trusts his defense more than his offense".

That is Saban's weakness.

Like it or not, Defense wins far more Championships than Offense - always has been, always will be.

The list of past NC's that didn't have a Top-10 Offense is a fairly long one.
The list of past NC's that didn't have a Top-10 Defense is VERY SHORT. *

* 2014 O$U is one of the rare exceptions, as they were "only" #15 nationally in Total Defense coming into the P_ayoffs.

People crow a lot about Deshaun Watson, and with good reason! But Clempson has had great OFFENSES since Dabo's third or fourth season there. The DIFFERENCE that made them Champions and Championship contenders was the hiring of Brent Venables and the rise of their DEFENSE.

Last year, coming into the P_ayoffs, Clempson was 13th Nationally in Total Offense, but 9th in Total Defense.

Of the current AP Top-10 teams; 6 of the 10 have Total Defense ratings in the Top 11 nationally. In Scoring Defense, 7 of the 10 are in the Top-10 Nationally, 8 are in the Top-15.

ONLY TWO are in the Top-10 of Total or Scoring Offense.

 

[B1GTide]

Wow, you nailed it! I had these exact same thoughts before going to bed last night. Looking at our QB situation Tua is a much more aggressive passer and is going to try and thread the needle on some passes that Jalen would never try. Consequently Tua is always going to throw more INT's than Jalen but he's also going to complete some of those passes as well. It's that risk vs. reward that Coach Saban has to weigh. Coach Saban believes in protecting the football on offense, play field position and win with defense. So that is why he sticks with Jalen. Jalen looks for safe passes and doesn't turn it over. Coach Saban probably thinks Tua is a little too reckless with his passes. Looking back at Clemson's Deshaun Watson's career he was another aggressive passer but threw a lot of INT's. Had Watson played at Alabama I think Coach Saban would have not tolerated the amount of INT's that Watson threw. But Watson did make up for it by throwing a lot of TD's. I agree that in the big games we need to be more aggressive.

I remember an NFL head coach once talking about his offense and QB (Kurt Warner). A reporter asked him if he was concerned about Kurt's number of interceptions thrown that season. His answer was simple - No, because when you are on offense you have to score points, and the best way to score points is with explosive plays. With every long pass down the field there is risk, but there is also the possibility of a huge rewards. You have to trust your QB and receivers, accept the Ints along with the TDs.

This is a pretty typical offensive philosophy in the NFL.

 

[B1GTide]

Like it or not, Defense wins far more Championships than Offense - always has been, always will be.

Stop here - you are working under the assumption that great offense and great defenses must be mutually exclusive. I would never advocate for weakening a team's defense in favor of improving its offense. What I am in favor of is a team that emphasizes them both equally.

In 2015, your offense and special teams won the Clemson game. Your defense could barely stand at the end of the game. Last year you offense and special teams simply did not do enough to win the game. Both years Alabama had the best defense in the country. The year with the better offense produced a championship. The year with the weaker offense did not. In both of those games you faced a team with both a great defense and a great offense.

Balance

 

[TomFromBama]

I remember an NFL head coach once talking about his offense and QB (Kurt Warner). A reporter asked him if he was concerned about Kurt's number of interceptions thrown that season. His answer was simple - No, because when you are on offense you have to score points, and the best way to score points is with explosive plays. With every long pass down the field there is risk, but there is also the possibility of a huge rewards. You have to trust your QB and receivers, accept the Ints along with the TDs.

This is a pretty typical offensive philosophy in the NFL.

The NFL is a DIFFERENT GAME.

The game Daboll called Saturday night wins in a landslide..... IF you have an NFL caliber QB, and NFL caliber WR's and TE's. We don't.

 

[B1GTide]

The NFL is a DIFFERENT GAME.

The game Daboll called Saturday night wins in a landslide..... IF you have an NFL caliber QB, and NFL caliber WR's and TE's. We don't.

So you don't want a good offense? I do not understand your point. You are fine with a sub-par offense as long as you can have a great defense?

 

[TomFromBama]

Stop here - you are working under the assumption that great offense and great defenses must be mutually exclusive. I would never advocate for weakening a team's defense in favor of improving its offense. What I am in favor of is a team that emphasizes them both equally.

In 2015, your offense and special teams won the Clemson game. Your defense could barely stand at the end of the game. Last year you offense and special teams simply did not do enough to win the game. Both years Alabama had the best defense in the country. The year with the better offense produced a championship. The year with the weaker offense did not. In both of those games you faced a team with both a great defense and a great offense.

Balance

I TOTALLY AGREE that Balance is necessary, and "Ideal"!! Totally! - I'm just stating a plain fact, NOT many teams win NC's without pretty good Defenses - but several have won with only "average" to "above average" offenses. And VERY FEW COLLEGE TEAMS end the season in the Top-10 of Both Total OR Scoring O And D.

And lets be honest, our defense didn't "dominate" Clempson in 2015. BUT we also held them to 33 "Real" points when it mattered. Their last TD was a PURE "Garbage Time" score against a "prevent" defense, just letting the clock run for us with under 2 minutes left. The REAL score of that game was 45-33.

In 2016, our Defense held Clempson to 14 points for THREE QUARTERS, but the meaningful stat there was only 14 points allowed through some ~70 offensive snaps - more than we allow most opponents in MOST games. The defense wore out because the Offense totally FAILED - (MUCH like Sat. Night) - we were 2/15 in 3rd down conversions in the NC game - and thus could not maintain drives, leaving the Defense on the field all night. IF the 2016 offense had even been "Average" in that game, we win easily, probably by a score of something like 28-21.

It was much the same deal Sat. night: the Defense, as bad as they played, had held the barn to 20 points through 3 quarters. In MOST games, even against Very Good opponents, if you hold the other guys to 20, you are "Usually" going to win.

But once again, the OFFENSE was "MIA" in another big game. 3/11 in 3rd down conversions is what lost the game. NOT allowing 26 points to an offense that was averaging >45 pts/game in their last four outings. Pick up even 5 or 6 of those 11 and we probably win..... That, and don't jump offsides on a crucual punt....

But I digress..... Yes, I agree that its best to be Very Good in EVERY Phase of the game.

 

[BamaMoon]

There's nothing aggressive about two steps and slant, or two steps and dump to the tight end over the middle. It's simple football now, maybe not five years ago, but it is now. We have playmakers all across the field, distribute the ball to them.

What if these slow developing pass plays were really quick first reads that Jalen missed?

I want these guys to sharpen each other: Tua to take Jalen's spot and Jalen to keep Tua on the bench. I'm not sure that's happening.


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I wondered the same...if the long routes were a result of Jalen missing an early opportunity. I doubt that's always the case, but I've seen him wait 2 seconds the throw a ball that should have come out in a hurry.

No doubt he has the tendency to hesitate. But, I do think there are some OC play calling and route adjustments that need to be made to help him.

 

[BamaMoon]

Like it or not, Defense wins far more Championships than Offense - always has been, always will be.

The list of past NC's that didn't have a Top-10 Offense is a fairly long one.
The list of past NC's that didn't have a Top-10 Defense is VERY SHORT. *

* 2014 O$U is one of the rare exceptions, as they were "only" #15 nationally in Total Defense coming into the P_ayoffs.

People crow a lot about Deshaun Watson, and with good reason! But Clempson has had great OFFENSES since Dabo's third or fourth season there. The DIFFERENCE that made them Champions and Championship contenders was the hiring of Brent Venables and the rise of their DEFENSE.

Last year, coming into the P_ayoffs, Clempson was 13th Nationally in Total Offense, but 9th in Total Defense.

Of the current AP Top-10 teams; 6 of the 10 have Total Defense ratings in the Top 11 nationally. In Scoring Defense, 7 of the 10 are in the Top-10 Nationally, 8 are in the Top-15.

ONLY TWO are in the Top-10 of Total or Scoring Offense.

Most of the time you are right.

But, unless we get some playoff breaks and totally right the ship on this season, 2016 and 2017 will go down as years we had a defense that was plenty good to win the NC, but we didn't have an offense that could win the close game to hold up their end of the bargain.

Someone posted our 3rd down conversion rates in the big games from last year and this year and I believe our failure to complete 3rd downs is the sole reason we will see both of these great years be wasted if championships are the goal. Bottom line, the defense has done plenty and the offense is the problem. To be more specific our inability to pass the ball in big games is our blindspot right now.

 

[Nolan]

Very true, and he will let Tua walk even though he is the best QB we have recruited in years. Jalen will be our QB for the next two years regardless of performance. I believe that Tua knows he is better than Jalen. He will discover that "the best does not always play" and change his future. No use to worry about it because it is what it is.

No offense, Moro, but this is where message board opinions stated as fact begin to run amok. CNS won't play the best guy? Sorry, but that isn't true - and you, me, and anyone else wouldn't know anyway. We aren't Coach.

 

[Moro Creek]

No offense, Moro, but this is where message board opinions stated as fact begin to run amok. CNS won't play the best guy? Sorry, but that isn't true - and you, me, and anyone else wouldn't know anyway. We aren't Coach.

No offense taken Nolan. It's just my uneducated opinion. I hope I'm wrong and the best play. If so, I think I will be very happy with the results.

 

[B1GTide]

No offense, Moro, but this is where message board opinions stated as fact begin to run amok. CNS won't play the best guy? Sorry, but that isn't true - and you, me, and anyone else wouldn't know anyway. We aren't Coach.

To be clear, we are talking about QBs, and anyone with any familiarity with Saban's history can see that he has never, not once, benched an established starter at QB for another player. Never.

 

[KrAzY3]

No doubt he has the tendency to hesitate. But, I do think there are some OC play calling and route adjustments that need to be made to help him.

Just look at how Stidham was used. Stidham has a good arm, he can throw the ball downfield, but he was doing screens and underneath the coverage passes and it was working! That's the part that irritates me. I know Hurts needs to improve in some areas, but I have no idea why they handcuff him by taking away things he actually did well last year.

Anyway, I think we'll have a QB competition in the spring. But first, I think they need to sit down and stop trying to run an NFL offense, and come up with something that works in college with the guys they have on the field.

 

[BamaMoon]

Just look at how Stidham was used. Stidham has a good arm, he can throw the ball downfield, but he was doing screens and underneath the coverage passes and it was working! That's the part that irritates me. I know Hurts needs to improve in some areas, but I have no idea why they handcuff him by taking away things he actually did well last year.

Anyway, I think we'll have a QB competition in the spring. But first, I think they need to sit down and stop trying to run an NFL offense, and come up with something that works in college with the guys they have on the field.

Current drop back passing scheme (as is) is definitely more suited for Tua's quick scan and release skill set. Current QB/RB option scheme is obviously better suited for Jalen's legs. Offense is just a hot mess right now.

 

[BamaMoon]

To be clear, we are talking about QBs, and anyone with any familiarity with Saban's history can see that he has never, not once, benched an established starter at QB for another player. Never.

True, but CNS had NEVER yielded from his Pro-Set mentality until recently. He's in uncharted waters, so to speak with our hybrid offense. He's shown he's willing to make major adjustments on defense. Just wonder where is mind is on the offensive identity right now?

 

[92tide]

i was pretty pleased with what we were running in the (3d and) 4th q vs miss state and in the scoring drives vs auburn. i remember turning to my cousin during our first drive (the one that ended in a punt on 4th and 1) and said we are going to kill them on the edges today.

not quite sure why we couldn't keep that mojo working.

 

[mgeod]

To be clear, we are talking about QBs, and anyone with any familiarity with Saban's history can see that he has never, not once, benched an established starter at QB for another player. Never.

Been following Bama football a long time and tbh .. Next fall if this is the case and we can't work the field and throw passes I guess I will quit folllowing for a while . Part of me hopes it doesn't happen and part does .. I give up a lot of great fishing trips to follow Bama. I am not bashing Hurts at all , I just want to see the best play . I have watched every game this year . I know Tua has come in during garbage time but the offense is so smooth with him out there. And he was a dual threat q b right ? He may not run like Hurts but we have stud running backs that can tote it .

If my child was being recruited by Bama as a W R or R B and I thought this would be a repeat I would encourage him to go elsewhere. Our R B touched the ball as a group very little . Just my thoughts ..

 

[KrAzY3]

I think if you want to look to what would work for Hurts, Blake Sims is probably a good example.

I think we all know his first year Hurts was kind of in over his head at times, bad play calling situation, but also a true freshman trying to compete for a championship. You can't do too much under those circumstances. What I expected to see the coming year was Hurts throwing more (downfield) and running less.

What we saw was this hybrid thing where he at times they seem to be trying to use him as a pocket passer, and at times he's running a stunted RPO offense. The lack of commitment seems to have hurt as much as anything. If they wanted Hurts to become a true pocket passer, why did he throw so much less while running far too often? On the other hand, if they really wanted an effective RPO offense, why did they gut all the short stuff? It seems that having to account for Hurts running ability would create more opportunity for short passes to go for bigger gains.

Anyway, back to Blake Sims. He threw for 3,487 yards and 28 TDs. He also rushed for 350 yards and 7 TDs. Now, Blake Sims is better than the deep pass than Hurts is, but I think Hurts is better at protecting the football and is a better runner. The problem is look at what Hurts did this year, he threw for 2005 yards and 15 TDs while rushing 766 yards and 8 TDs. He had 36 TDs last year though! He clearly got better as a passer, and yet his production has tanked. That's not all his fault, no way that can all be his fault.

If Daboll had been able and willing to use him more like Kiffin used Sims, I think Hurts could have had a monster year. Kiffin gave Sims a steady diet of short stuff, allowing the playmakers Alabama had to make big plays, and then every once in a while he dialed up the home run, which by the way was usually such a simple read that sometimes Kiffin would have his arms in the air before the ball was released. He didn't force Sims into doing things he wasn't good at, and it paid off in a former running back having a great year.

Hurts could improve and get better, but there's just no question at all in my mind that while Daboll has developed Hurts as a passer, he hasn't done all he could to maximize his production. Now, may be after the season both Daboll and Hurts will be re-evaluated, but I'd really like to see the playcalling take advantage of what Alabama has on the field and stop trying to make it conform to some mediocre NFL offensive play calling scheme. The fact that some people can't seem to see that playcalling is obviously part of the issue boggles my mind. It isn't like anyone has ever accused Daboll of being an offensive genuis, I have no doubt that he's trying, but he simply has to adjust to the college game. The fact that Hurts is taking the fall while Daboll refuses to call things like a screen pass is pretty sad in my opinion.

 

[drwho]

Saban's statement that any possession that ends in a kick is a good possession is proof positive. I laughed when I first heard it. It is absurd. Any possession that ends in points is a good possession. Every possession that ends in anything other than points is a failed possession. I heard another coach talking about this comment after he made it - don't remember who - but he said something like, "this comes from a coach who trusts his defense more than his offense".


That is Saban's weakness.

Ends in a kick, not a punt. That translates to points.

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