Record Low In Chicago

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
38,843
34,257
287
55
http://news.yahoo.com/video/record-cold-hits-chicago-area-221549809.html

Of course, if it was a record high, we'd be told it was proof of global warming/climate change/whatever they call it next.

Record cold? "Well you see, you don't understand the science/model/blah blah blah." Or "just because it's warming doesn't mean you don't have cold days." True enough - but then you shouldn't be citing high temps as proof, either.

I'm agnostic on the specifics; more precisely I don't care. The earth has been here billions of years and survived all manner of stuff but some CFCs or plastic bags are going to destroy it?
 

PacadermaTideUs

All-American
Dec 10, 2009
4,074
295
107
Navarre, FL
I'm agnostic on the specifics; more precisely I don't care. The earth has been here billions of years and survived all manner of stuff but some CFCs or plastic bags are going to destroy it?
I care. I just think that the warming that is almost certainly anthropogenically caused by GHGs is small taters compared to, and is in fact more or less nullified by, the warming and cooling cycles that are naturally driven in the absence of us evil Homo sapiens. I also believe that the planet's internal mechanisms are far more complex and capable of metabolizing energy imbalances (anthropogenic or otherwise) than we understand.

To that point, I have always greatly loved a quote by George Carlin. Bottom line: even if we are significantly contributing to planetary warming (and I don't believe we are), the planet will be fine. The human race and other species may not be. But we're a bit egocentric to think that we'll cause any significant damage to the planet.

Unfortunately, I can't link to the full quote due to the many expletives. Please forgive its length, but it's worth the read. Note: I've cleaned it up a bit, changes [bracketed].

We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this [stuff]. I’m tired of [stupid] Earth Day. I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a [darn] about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE are!

We’re going away. Pack your [stuff], folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?”

Plastic… [dummy - that's why].
 

Bama4Ever831

All-American
Sep 13, 2005
2,208
0
45
36
Tuscaloosa, AL
We're serious. Climate is real.
Short-term trends should not be considered when you look at if the climate is changing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ds-hottest-measured-u-s-june-temperature-129/

Death Valley hit hottest U.S. June temperature ever recorded Sunday: 129
or

http://earthsky.org/earth/june-2013-ranked-15th-warmest-month-on-record-in-u-s

In U.S., June 2013 ranked 15th warmest June on record

So since I posted two articles to your one do I win?
 

Bama4Ever831

All-American
Sep 13, 2005
2,208
0
45
36
Tuscaloosa, AL
I care. I just think that the warming that is almost certainly anthropogenically caused by GHGs is small taters compared to, and is in fact more or less nullified by, the warming and cooling cycles that are naturally driven in the absence of us evil Homo sapiens. I also believe that the planet's internal mechanisms are far more complex and capable of metabolizing energy imbalances (anthropogenic or otherwise) than we understand.
I may not agree with your entire post, but I can certainly respect your argument here. This is something that I would be willing to debate with you.

Like you said, the earth will in fact be okay. Will it change in way where humans and other life forms can't be supported?
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
38,843
34,257
287
55
I concur that short trends should not be considered. Heck, I even concur that just because Chicago had one record low on one day it is insignificant in the larger picture. But that misses the point.

If Chicago had run a temperature of 129 that day they set the record low, the news media, having demonstrated their objectivity in the Zimmerman case, would have cited it as proof that we need to act NOW and move back to the Stone Age in our every day lives. James Hansen and Al Gore would have been shown shamelessly castigating businesses and oil companies, probably nested in an attack that brought up the oil platform thing or whatever from the other day.

As far as Death Valley record high - you might have an argument if this was January, but it's hardly news that it's hot in the summer. And THIS is my problem with the whole thing and has been since I noticed the trends in reporting. So this is the 15th warmest June on record. How many Junes are on record? It's not 4 billion or whatever. (And if we're getting warmer then shouldn't each June be warmer than the last? Or at least maybe in the top fivd? I'm just saying).

Global warming has become like AIDS in 1991. There is the science and the political entity, and advocates of the political entity confuse that with the science. Do you remember how many millions were gonna die and the science could prove it? Yet it never happened but when some of us pointed this out we were castigated as arguing with "science." That's why I chuckle every time somebody repeats the mantra.

We were gonna run out of oil in the 1950s even before the Interstate. There was gonna be a famine wipe out a huge chunk of the population. Never happened. But if you pointed out the flaws then you were called names.

Bottom line: there is science and there is a political entity. People were willing to spend money on research back in the 90s because we were in surplus. Now? Global warming doesn't even show up in the top three issues.
 

bamacon

Hall of Fame
Apr 11, 2008
17,186
4,366
187
College Football's Mecca, Tuscaloosa
I remember the next ice age craze too. Hoaxers need to make up their mind. My biggest red flag is the "consensus of scientists" statement they always barf up. Science is based on fact. Period. Scientists were also in consensus about the earth being flat and the center of the solar system. Until they have conclusive
Scientific proof that man is causing the warming then I'll chalk climate change up to those crazy things we call weather and seasons.
 

GA_Tide

1st Team
Aug 24, 2006
463
24
42
52
Canton, Ga
Be sure to let me know what scientific journal that is published in.
Actually tempatures have been basically flat for the last 15 years. Here are a couple of recent articles.

First from The Economist, which has been pushing global warming for years:

http://www.economist.com/news/scien...ing-up-less-response-greenhouse-gas-emissions

OVER the past 15 years air temperatures at the Earth’s surface have been flat while greenhouse-gas emissions have continued to soar. The world added roughly 100 billion tonnes of carbon to the atmosphere between 2000 and 2010. That is about a quarter of all the CO₂ put there by humanity since 1750. And yet, as James Hansen, the head of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, observes, “the five-year mean global temperature has been flat for a decade.”


And of course the liberal bastion New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/science/earth/what-to-make-of-a-climate-change-plateau.html?_r=0


But given how much is riding on the scientific forecast, the practitioners of climate science would like to understand exactly what is going on. They admit that they do not, even though some potential mechanisms of the slowdown have been suggested. The situation highlights important gaps in our knowledge of the climate system, some of which cannot be closed until we get better measurements from high in space and from deep in the ocean.


To me the bolded quote above is the big takeaway. The climate is an incredibly complex system that we don't fully understand. I have no problem with people raising concerns, but claiming the "science is settled" and calling people with legitimate questions "deniers" is just an effort to shut down the debate and shows they have more interest in their own agenda than the truth.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
38,843
34,257
287
55
Be sure to let me know what scientific journal that is published in.
While I'm not necessarily dismissive of scholarly journals, I've read too many nonsensical articles in so-called peer reviewed journals to at least take what is said with a grain of salt (sometimes a bottle full of ipecac). Two examples:

1) In the nineteenth century, you were considered a complete fool for actually thinking that John's gospel was written in the first century. A man named F C Baur had PROVEN BEYOND ALL DOUBT that John's gospel COULD NOT have been written before 160 AD. Then something happened.....a copy of papyrus was found by a student in a library and examined. It contained part of John's gospel. It was paleographically dated to be as early as 125. Now I'm no genius, but even in my world, 125 was a good bit before 160. Thus, even though it appeared in a scholarly journal and "could not" have been written before 160, something called EVIDENCE overturned that notion.

2) I once read a series of articles from the New England Journal of Medicine. Embarrassing. One article was actually calling for the ban of children swinging on swings from trees because of "all the injuries" and another used ONE INSTANCE of lightning striking 44 Army soldiers to support the notion that there has been a massive increase in lightning strikes. Anyone with a brain should have seen that one strike created so many injuries that it could not possibly be considered the norm. But somehow it made it into the journal.

Now that, of course, does not mean ALL articles in journals are bad, but let's not exactly be kissing the backsides of people just because they have a lot of initials after their names.

Remember all those articles about the AIDS crisis? Remember how AIDS was going to WIPE OUT the USA?

And consider how even the more responsible articles went.

Article One:

Epidemiologists estimate that acquired immune deficiency syndrome will kill 1 million Americans by the year 2000. That means 1 million killed from the disease's first appearance until the year 2000.

Now let's see the ACTUAL numbers from the CDC, and to make it better we will INCLUDE the year 2000:

As of December 31, 2000, 774,467 persons had been reported with AIDS in the United States; 448,060 of these had died; 3542 persons had unknown vital status.

So let's see, I give you an extra year and not even HALF of the alarmist total occurs. While every death is tragic, let's simply note that we were NEVER all at risk for AIDS (highest risk? Inner city IV drug users) and yet billions were made and thrown at research in a fear-mongering campaign. When anybody dared point out why this was never going to happen, they were called names and told the science refuted them and how DARE they question it.

Sound familiar? Sure does to me. It works like this:

1) Find a cause and say science has found a "possible link" between X and a coming disaster that will kill millions
2) Find an up and coming Congressman/Senator who needs a cause to attach his name to and send him up to bang the drum for money
3) Submit a report that says things are WORSE than you ever imagined and we must ACT NOW and need more money
4) When the inevitable questions come, divert them with attacks upon the inquistor and telling everyone "the science is settled." It helps if you can paint the questioner as religious and you can bring in the old "they thought the earth was flat" straw man and Galileo.
5) Make sure you use the MEDIA because - to be blunt about it - they're clueless and stupid. Keep in mind the media told us that a bunch of lawyers who had lost about 80% of their trial cases were a Dream Team and "the best money could buy" when they defended OJ Simpson, told us Coach Bryant fixed a football game, and even told us Zimmerman killed a defenseless little kid. The media simply isn't smart enough to know which questions to ask. After all - how many journalists are climatologists? None that I know of.

Remember that hole in the ozone layer? You never hear about that anymore. Why not? Well, because when Mt Pinatubo erupted in 1991 and threw up more CFCs than the entire world had thrown up in decades, nobody believed it anymore.
 

DzynKingRTR

TideFans Legend
Dec 17, 2003
46,552
37,015
287
Vinings, ga., usa
you know it has been a relatively mild summer so far. i have enjoyed it. i just wish we could have consecutive days where it doesn't rain or look like it will rain.
 

Latest threads