Report: Top Southern Baptists stonewalled sex abuse victims - AJC

Zorak

All-American
Jan 8, 2010
3,001
571
137
43
Orlando, FL (Winter Park area)
My wife has experienced abuse and cover up quite first hand, both in her personal life and professional. Years ago her grandfather, a well known and beloved pastor in Brazil was leading a double life, carrying on a long-term affair with the church organist. My mother in law was a daddy’s girl, and held him up on a pedestal, so when this came to light, it was devastating to her, sending her on a rebellious streak. However, the affair was swept under the rug and covered up by the church leadership. My father in law was, at the time, dating my mother in law and he was (rightfully) indignant, hiring a private investigator, and was brushed off by church leadership when he presented evidence, convinced he was trying to besmirch the reputation of someone who was standing firm for the Gospel (or something like that). My father in law was a seminary student at the time, and with my mother in law’s rebellious streak, they slept together one night, which was the night my wife was conceived. When the pregnancy came to light, he was kicked out of the seminary, he and my mother in law were disciplined by the church, and he was forbidden from seeing either my mother in law, nor my wife for essentially two years (when my mother in law turned 21).

What ticks me off today 40 years later is the utter hypocrisy with which that church treated my in laws, and wife as well. Sure, what my in laws did wasn’t right, but neither was what my wife’s grandfather did, and indeed, I’d argue it is several orders of magnitude greater. However, the ones who were shunned by the church was not pastor carrying on a years long affair, but the ones who saw their sin (as Padreruf mentioned, by “biblical norms” at the time), asked for forgiveness, and repented. It split the church, devastated the family, and caused many in the family to (understandably so) renounce their faith. The ironic part of this whole saga is the ones who were so quick to condemn my in laws are now dealing with all sorts of garbage in their own lives now, while my in laws have been married 38 years. It’s not been an easy marriage, to say the least, but they’ve stayed committed to eachother for 38 years now (not to mention 2-3 years before that). And frankly, it’s a wonder my wife, her brother and sister are still professing Christians and well adjusted because with the stuff they saw, and experienced first hand themselves, often at the hand of the church, was downright demonic. Had they walked away from the Church, it would have been understandable and I would not have blamed them in the least.

That experience, awful as it was, set my wife (a counselor) up to be able to sit with people who’ve been exposed to similarly demonic stuff within the Church, and emphasize with them. She’s sat through depositions by third party/independent investigations into church abuses. She, obviously for privacy reasons, doesn’t reveal a whole lot of detail, but gives me enough of a glimpse to go all Howard Beale, opening my window shouting “I’m as mad as Hell, and I’m not going take it any more!”. As B.A. a counselor she is, she shouldn’t have to be in this field. In another life, she would either have attended UGA on a volleyball scholarship, or attended SCAD.

(I’ll add I’m not prone to get as mad as Hell, so it takes a special heinousness to send me over the edge, but this certainly fits the bill, no question.)

Abuse wherever and whenever it happens is heinous, full stop. When it happens within the church, and when it’s swept under the rug under the guise of preserving the purity and peace of the Church, and particularly when it involves children, it is down right demonic.
 

BamaInBham

All-American
Feb 14, 2007
4,651
2,498
187
Peter wrote in the NT, "...there will also be false teachers among you...and many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned...". Unfortunate but true.

Catholicism has been spiritually dead for more than a millennium, and IMO, Protestantism has been hollowed out for 3 1/2 centuries. The Lord said of Protestantism, "you have a name that you are alive and you are dead...Nevertheless, you have a few names...who have not soiled their garments....". Prot. started out well in 1517 but legalism and self-reliance sucked most of the life out of it. Not surprising when you consider that they are saddled with denominationalism and ecclesiastical systems, neither of which are sanctioned by the Lord, they also dragged some baggage from what we now call Catholicism with them when they left. By the end of the first century the assembly had "left its first love". IMO, it has never fully recovered, thus, there are sad situations described in the origin of this thread.

Thankfully, there are genuine believers here and there in both groups (though far more in Prot) as well as nondenom. groups, while not immune to weakness, thus, failings, they will often handle them in the proper way. A recent survey by ?Barna? indicates that ~62% of Americans claim to be Christians (maybe evangelical, not sure). That would be approx ~200m people in the U.S., OTOH, they said that 2% have a Biblical worldview. IMO, there may be 6-12m in this country who truly know the Lord - hopefully I'm wrong and there's more, but Jesus Christ said, "the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few there be that find it." The fact that there are many "tares" interspersed among the "wheat" is the source of much of what we see.

At the end of this period of time (the church age) Jesus Christ says, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you (the professing church) out of My mouth".

(In my 48 years of meeting with believers in a particular small nondenom. universe, I've never seen or heard of this kind of behavior except once when someone involved in an iterant teaching ministry seduced one or two women, IIRC (15-20 yrs ago). It was not abuse but obviously sexual misconduct. He acknowledged what he did and sent a letter to many groups around the country to that effect, then submitted to the discipline of the elders in his local assembly, which included no more public ministry.)

This unfortunate, bad behavior, along with the rampant nominalism in Christendom as a whole, fortunately does not change the fact that, "God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness..." Jesus Christ said to a faithfully religious man, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see (enter into) the kingdom of God...you must be born again" . Paul wrote, "To him who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness". Jesus Christ is he only Savior and a willing one.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
61,189
52,875
287
55
East Point, Ga, USA
  • Like
Reactions: dtgreg

Jon

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2002
16,330
14,837
282
Atlanta 'Burbs



like any of these guys ever accept fault, I am sure internally it is "she tempted me" but externally in 2022 that don't fly
 
  • Like
Reactions: 92tide

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
61,189
52,875
287
55
East Point, Ga, USA

NationalTitles18

TideFans Legend
May 25, 2003
32,395
42,232
362
Mountainous Northern California
man, they're rolling up the whole network

Baptists: Save the children from the global cabal of pedophiles, unless they happen to be our church leaders.

IOW, projection - as always.
 

Padreruf

Hall of Fame
Feb 12, 2001
9,000
12,934
287
74
Charleston, South Carolina
The leadership covered up and tried to deny responsibility under the guise of Baptist polity, i.e., not a hierarchical structured institution. Funny that they didn't see that when condemning churches that accepted gays. We will now see what the courts think of their reasoning.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
37,175
31,538
287
55
The leadership covered up and tried to deny responsibility under the guise of Baptist polity, i.e., not a hierarchical structured institution. Funny that they didn't see that when condemning churches that accepted gays. We will now see what the courts think of their reasoning.
As someone who spent a good number of years in SBC churches - and my theological views in large part agree with MUCH of what I learned - this surprises me less and less the older I get. I don't want to give the idea this is only a "Baptist" thing, but a lot of issues I had and that informed my own personal spiritual crisis when younger is that when you ask the people who are SUPPOSED TO KNOW or have an idea why a doctrine is a particular way...very few can answer it, even pastors who have presumably been to seminary. Having graduated from a seminary, I understand it MORE in the sense that no single person can possibly be well-informed on every single issue that arises - and that MAY be why my view has been evolving ever since studying in the issue more into a view advocating a PLURALITY OF ELDERS rather than the typical SBC setup of a hierarchy in-house with a pastor "advised" by deacons which, many times, is like those high school elections where popularity is all it really is. And there's a lot of what I can "Americanism" in the SBC churches I attended that sort of assumes a church should be run as some sort of democracy. Well...when it's convenient, of course.

I had a pastor in the first church where I was on staff (I was 26) who - quite frankly - was Donald Trump. No, I never heard him firing off foul language and as far as I know he wasn't involved with other women, but he had the gall to tell me (and anyone else on staff) that I owed him "absolute loyalty," which is ludicrous. "Not contradict in public but discuss privately"? Absolutely.

He was heavily authoritarian and finally his string ran out when - as all authoritarians do - he made a colossal mistake. He hired on an associate pastor. He had already kinda worn out his welcome with several folks but because the church itself was the result of a split, they were terrified of being without a pastor and imploding. And he was a manipulative nonpareil, always making sure to get all the details of other stories and fit his in with it to manipulate the outcome. So once when he got into a particular tiff - he had a long-running one with the pianist and they'd go through times when they got along and times when she wouldn't be there for months - he called together a deacon's meeting and claimed that she had been propositioning him and trying to get him to see her "away from the church." The deacons said this was a serious episode and asked him to wait outside while they discussed it.

What they did was ask the associate pastor if he was willing to take over and then brought him back in and fired him by unanimous vote. What made this even more relevant was that he lived on the church property with a free house and now...had to go to work.

My ex- who rarely did stuff like this even if she was delusional - got into it with him behind closed doors once (I was in the next room) and she issued him a warning, telling him he was manipulative and he may not think so but one of these days he was going to need an ally and not have one.



Years later, I attended Chuck Swindoll's church for awhile and got to know him on a first-name basis and discuss things. I laid out the case that the sermon he had just preached had more relevance to PASTORS needing to hear it than to anyone else. He agreed and when I asked him what turned pastors into "dotting I and crossing T" Christians, Chuck said, "The seminaries make them that way."
 

Padreruf

Hall of Fame
Feb 12, 2001
9,000
12,934
287
74
Charleston, South Carolina
As someone who spent a good number of years in SBC churches - and my theological views in large part agree with MUCH of what I learned - this surprises me less and less the older I get. I don't want to give the idea this is only a "Baptist" thing, but a lot of issues I had and that informed my own personal spiritual crisis when younger is that when you ask the people who are SUPPOSED TO KNOW or have an idea why a doctrine is a particular way...very few can answer it, even pastors who have presumably been to seminary. Having graduated from a seminary, I understand it MORE in the sense that no single person can possibly be well-informed on every single issue that arises - and that MAY be why my view has been evolving ever since studying in the issue more into a view advocating a PLURALITY OF ELDERS rather than the typical SBC setup of a hierarchy in-house with a pastor "advised" by deacons which, many times, is like those high school elections where popularity is all it really is. And there's a lot of what I can "Americanism" in the SBC churches I attended that sort of assumes a church should be run as some sort of democracy. Well...when it's convenient, of course.

I had a pastor in the first church where I was on staff (I was 26) who - quite frankly - was Donald Trump. No, I never heard him firing off foul language and as far as I know he wasn't involved with other women, but he had the gall to tell me (and anyone else on staff) that I owed him "absolute loyalty," which is ludicrous. "Not contradict in public but discuss privately"? Absolutely.

He was heavily authoritarian and finally his string ran out when - as all authoritarians do - he made a colossal mistake. He hired on an associate pastor. He had already kinda worn out his welcome with several folks but because the church itself was the result of a split, they were terrified of being without a pastor and imploding. And he was a manipulative nonpareil, always making sure to get all the details of other stories and fit his in with it to manipulate the outcome. So once when he got into a particular tiff - he had a long-running one with the pianist and they'd go through times when they got along and times when she wouldn't be there for months - he called together a deacon's meeting and claimed that she had been propositioning him and trying to get him to see her "away from the church." The deacons said this was a serious episode and asked him to wait outside while they discussed it.

What they did was ask the associate pastor if he was willing to take over and then brought him back in and fired him by unanimous vote. What made this even more relevant was that he lived on the church property with a free house and now...had to go to work.

My ex- who rarely did stuff like this even if she was delusional - got into it with him behind closed doors once (I was in the next room) and she issued him a warning, telling him he was manipulative and he may not think so but one of these days he was going to need an ally and not have one.



Years later, I attended Chuck Swindoll's church for awhile and got to know him on a first-name basis and discuss things. I laid out the case that the sermon he had just preached had more relevance to PASTORS needing to hear it than to anyone else. He agreed and when I asked him what turned pastors into "dotting I and crossing T" Christians, Chuck said, "The seminaries make them that way."
Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective. Authoritarian ministers are very widespread in the more fundamental churches. in moderate churches it is more shared leadership...you usually have a more educated laity who do not tolerate dictators. Baptist strength is the autonomy of the local church...Baptist weakness is the autonomy of the local church.

Although I think Swindoll was a top drawer communicator, I don't agree with his statement about seminaries, although he may have been referring to the more conservative one's of his "tribe." My seminary taught me how to think, to love, and to be a pastor as well as a preacher.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NationalTitles18

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
37,175
31,538
287
55
Although I think Swindoll was a top drawer communicator, I don't agree with his statement about seminaries, although he may have been referring to the more conservative one's of his "tribe." My seminary taught me how to think, to love, and to be a pastor as well as a preacher.
Dallas Seminary (where Swindoll was once the President) emphasizes what you're talking about. In some sense you "could" call it fundamentalist, although there are only 7 distinctives that STUDENTS have to endorse (professors, that's different).

I think that what Chuck meant - and this was over 15 years ago - but I think he meant that the conservative seminaries by and large create a fear/fortress mentality in that there's a crippling anxiety that if several of the families hang out together, they will air their grievances with the pastor (since everybody has one) and chase him off. And have a list of rules which leads to another funny story.

When I was there, DTS had a rigid "no smoke/no drink" policy. That, of course, sounds contrary to grace AND IT IS. Even most of the professors did not agree with it. That was because one or some of the old guard of the high-dollar donors (!) wanted that in the seminary acceptance package. It wasn't like the profs went around sniffing out who was imbibing Scotch between exams or who was smoking a pipe between classes. That was the one REAL STICKING POINT a lot of folks had there - even if they didn't drink or smoke. And as you know, many just signed it and then ignored it like always.

One prominent professor - I won't mention his name because some will know it - told the then President (no longer Swindoll by that time), "Well if the donors are the cause, why don't we just get different donors?" To which the President replied, "I'm fine with that. Get me the names and their pledges on a list and we'll talk about it."

I actually learned more about "grace" at seminary than anything else.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Padreruf

CrimsonJazz

Hall of Fame
May 27, 2022
6,205
7,521
187
Amazing. What happened in the Catholic Church should have been a cautionary tale for the rest of Christendom. It would appear that other churches learned nothing and here we go. My sister-in-law works for the New Orleans Diocese and they are actually having to declare bankruptcy due to all of the molestation claims they are shelling out the big bucks for. It's just mind-boggling.
 
  • Like
  • Thank You
Reactions: dtgreg and Padreruf

Padreruf

Hall of Fame
Feb 12, 2001
9,000
12,934
287
74
Charleston, South Carolina

Crimson1967

Hall of Fame
Nov 22, 2011
19,202
10,693
187
All the hallmarks of a dying denomination...rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I am so glad to no longer be a part of the SBC...I literally left 34 years ago and it was the most liberating act for myself and the 2 churches I served as Senior Minister from that point forward.
What denomination did you switch to?
 

Padreruf

Hall of Fame
Feb 12, 2001
9,000
12,934
287
74
Charleston, South Carolina
What denomination did you switch to?
It is a splinter group -- Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. When I retired I joined a PCUSA church where my son and family here go. Not a dime's bit of difference between CFB and PCUSA except for some water and when it is administered. The CBF should have merged with the American Baptist Convention but our leaders were too egotistical to do that.
 

Latest threads