Russia invades Ukraine XV

[Its On A Slab]

I think the Russian public's support for the war isn't a new thing. It seems like, whatever the war or action, people are prone to blind patriotic support. I remember the WW2 vets grumbling (during the Vietnam years) that it's "your country, right or wrong".

And I remember here on this forum(yes, I've been around since dirt!!) , during the Iraq invasion, having my patriotism impugned because I dared to be against the war/invasion. One of the regs even accused me of wanting to see their child killed by terrorists because I dared to question why we were sending troops into harm's way in the Middle East.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

I'm at the point where I don't think Ukraine can win without this becoming a hot war with the US or NATO.

And unless our leaders are stupid, a hot war isn't happening.

To be honest, my gut was telling me this when the whole thing started. When CBS reported in an article that was up for less than 12 hours that many of the weapons we were sending over there were winding up in the hands of the European black market and African warlords, the doubt really began in earnest. If they can't even hold on to their weaponry, what chance did they really have?

 

[JDCrimson]

No, but its apparent we still have not provided the right kit in sufficient amounts for them to make greater gains. We cant even give them enough ammo to do the job. They dont have enough drones.

How? US troop involvement? I'm 100% against sending someone else's kid over there to die.

 

[crimsonaudio]

No, but its apparent we still have not provided the right kit in sufficient amounts for them to make greater gains. We cant even give them enough ammo to do the job. They dont have enough drones.

I do think it's a delicate balance wrt poking the bear here. Biden has done a good job of providing help without antagonizing russia too much. Gotta maintain that.

 

[Tidewater]

For the question is whether it is ethical to continue to support Ukraine in a war it is unlikely to win (as the Ukrainians define winning: recovery of all lost territory)?
It could be that we just want Russia to continue to suffer, but at this point, I do not see Ukraine getting all its territory back.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

If it weren't apparent before, when the "counteroffensive" stalled down, it became clear then. They don't even come close to having enough materiel to push out the Russians entirely....

 

[AWRTR]

I agree with the sentiment that Ukraine unfortunately isn’t going to be able to reclaim all their territory going back to the original territory grabs by Putin when Obama was in office, but what should be the endgame and will NATO be able to get the two combatants to the table to figure out an end to the war. I’ve been all for supporting Ukraine, but there has to be an endgame.

 

[Tidewater]

If it weren't apparent before, when the "counteroffensive" stalled down, it became clear then. They don't even come close to having enough materiel to push out the Russians entirely....

An interesting article in the Economist about a month ago.
General Zaluzhny, commander in Chief of the Ukrainian Armed Forces said, this about the offensive, "“First I thought there was something wrong with our commanders, so I changed some of them. Then I thought maybe our soldiers are not fit for purpose, so I moved soldiers in some brigades,” says General Zaluzhny. When those changes failed to make a difference, the general told his staff to dig out a book he once saw as a student. Its title was Breaching Fortified Defence Lines. It was published in 1941 by a Soviet major-general, P. S. Smirnov, who analysed the battles of the First World War. “And before I got even halfway through it, I realised that is exactly where we are because just like then, the level of our technological development today has put both us and our enemies in a stupor.”

 

[92tide]

Partisans 'Kill 24 Russian Soldiers with Poisoned Treats'

Ordnance is not the only way Ukrainians have been eliminating Russian occupation troops. A spate of poisonings by suspected partisans has taken its toll on Moscow’s forces as well.

www.kyivpost.com

Twenty-four Russian troops were killed after being given poison-laced food by “two nice girls” at a military checkpoint in Simferopol, Crimea, according to reports.

Unverified reports on Russian media channels said two partisans approached the soldiers with vodka, fish, sausage, bread, and cheese.

“They told the guards that they wanted to thank our boys for everything, for protecting them,” a source told the Telegram channel Kremlin Snuffbox, which posted the information on Dec. 1.

“The guys took vodka and food, drank with their colleagues, and ate. And many were poisoned.”

The Ukrainian partisan group Crimean Combat Seagulls later confirmed the news, saying that in addition to the 24 Russian soldiers killed, 11 more were hospitalized.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Modern warfare is freaking wild.

 

[Tidewater]

Zaluzhny continues on innovation in war. After reading the Smirnov article, “The simple fact is that we see everything the enemy is doing and they see everything we are doing. In order for us to break this deadlock we need something new, like the gunpowder which the Chinese invented and which we are still using to kill each other,” he says.
This time, however, the decisive factor will be not a single new invention, but will come from combining all the technical solutions that already exist, he says. ... he urges innovation in drones, electronic warfare, anti-artillery capabilities and demining equipment, as well as in the use of robotics.

I'm not sure that is it. The scary option? AI. The limiting factor in warfare is the human mind. How fast can people process the sensor-shooter cycle? To speed that up, take the human out of the loop. Tell a drone, the parameters of kill/don't kill, launch it (and a hundred of its peers), and then get ready to attack, taking advantage of the dislocation caused by the drones. What parameters? You can train a drone to recognize a Russian army uniform (kill) and a Ukrainian army uniform (don't kill). What about civilians? Don't kill, presumably, but what happens when every soldier then sheds his uniform? Do you tell the drones to kill civilians? If they are armed? If they are in trenches?
I do not know, but it seems to be getting really complicated really quickly.

 

[Tidewater]

And right on cue.
Russians are hunting the Ukrainian drone pilots destroying their tanks and firing everything they've got, if they pick up their electronic trail, operator says

The Russians are getting better at drones. If they pick up a signal of a drone control unit, and they have the ammo, they strike. The way to eliminate the signature is autonomous drones. Ethically dangerous, but Mars is a harsh teacher. What was ethically unacceptable yesterday may become military necessary tomorrow.

 

[crimsonaudio]

The picture of future wars gets more terrifying every day. I can only imagine what a USA/China war would look like from a tech perspective...

 

[Bodhisattva]

The picture of future wars gets more terrifying every day. I can only imagine what a USA/China war would look like from a tech perspective...

Will Skynet speak English or Mandarin?

 

[Tidewater]

The picture of future wars gets more terrifying every day. I can only imagine what a USA/China war would look like from a tech perspective...

A pathetic ending.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I'm not sure what that linked video has to do with the discussion, @Tidewater - can you expound?

 

[Tidewater]

Russian soldier trying to hide from a killer drone behind a small farm trailer. The drone operator keeps circling and the Russian keeps circling, trying to keep the trailer between him and the drone. Eventually, the Russian soldiers just gives up and gets killed.
I was thinking while watching, "If only there was a device that let you send a projectile at a target beyond arm's reach." (The Russkii had no weapon on him. Big no-no.)

 

[crimsonaudio]

Russian soldier trying to hide from a killer drone behind a small farm trailer. The drone operator keeps circling and the Russian keeps circling, trying to keep the trailer between him and the drone. Eventually, the Russian soldiers just gives up and gets killed.
I was thinking while watching, "If only there was a device that let you send a projectile at a target beyond arm's reach." (The Russkii had no weapon on him. Big no-no.)

Maybe re-check the link? It takes me to an active shooter being taken down by police.

 

[Tidewater]

Maybe re-check the link? It takes me to an active shooter being taken down by police.

View attachment 38967

Fixed it (I think). I have no idea where the cop video came from.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Fixed it (I think). I have no idea where the cop video came from.

Yeah, not the first video like that I've seen. Seems like an expensive way to take out single soldiers, but what a truly terrifying way to go.