Russia Invades Ukraine XVI

[crimsonaudio]

glad you weren't in charge in the 1930's

Okay?

Our arming of the Allies in the early 1940's was what got us dragged into WWII. I'd rather not get dragged into WWIII.

 

[Jon]

Okay?

Our arming of the Allies in the early 1940's was what got us dragged into WWII. I'd rather not get dragged into WWIII.

so I should just refer to you as Neville from this point forward. Because you clearly would have appeased Hitler too. Got it.

 

[crimsonaudio]

so I should just refer to you as Neville from this point forward. Because you clearly would have appeased Hitler too. Got it.

Nice straw man (you're good at building those).

If this were happening in a way that could directly affect the US, I'd have some interest in the fight. But this isn't our fight anymore than it was when the Russians invaded Georgia. Were you also this gung-ho to defend the Georgians? I don't recall anything about it here. Heck I don't recall anyone here wanting Obama to help Ukraine when Russia invaded Crimea.

Not every fight requires US sacrifice.

 

[Jon]

Nice straw man (you're good at building those).

If this were happening in a way that could directly affect the US, I'd have some interest in the fight. But this isn't our fight anymore than it was when the Russians invaded Georgia. Were you also this gung-ho to defend the Georgians? I don't recall anything about it here. Heck I don't recall anyone here wanting Obama to help Ukraine when Russia invaded Crimea.

Not every fight requires US sacrifice.

man yall need to learn what a straw man is, cuz again this ain't one

and yes, I did advocate that here when Obama was President. I saw the Georgia situation differently honestly and don't recall why

but yeah, Obama should have done way more. I know in y'all minds I am just whatever bs team yada yada yada crap y'all like to say to discount anything that counters your narative but I was HIGHLY Critical of Obama, especially in foreign policy

but hey, it isn't facts that got us here, why care about that now?

 

[crimsonaudio]

and yes, I did advocate that here when Obama was President. I saw the Georgia situation differently honestly and don't recall why

but yeah, Obama should have done way more. I know in y'all minds I am just whatever bs team yada yada yada crap y'all like to say to discount anything that counters your narative but I was HIGHLY Critical of Obama, especially in foreign policy

but hey, it isn't facts that got us here, why care about that now?

I simply asked a question, not sure why you have to respond with such venom every time. You seem like you're always in a fight. Can we not discuss and even disagree as adults and not resort to constant aggression?

I asked as there's no way I'm going to recall things posted here 10-15 years ago.

It seems that many see this as a situation where if we don't step up, Russia will attacking NATO countries before we know it. I don't see that, I think the treaties in place will prevent aggression towards NATO countries.

Beyond that, it sucks for Ukraine, sure, but where's the limit? Do we just keep putting money on the credit card to help them fight a war they simply cannot win, eternally? What's the end game if Ukraine isn't going to win / regain all their land (as Zelensky demands)?

 

[Jon]

I simply asked a question, not sure why you have to respond with such venom every time. You seem like you're always in a fight. Can we not discuss and even disagree as adults and not resort to constant aggression?

I asked as there's no way I'm going to recall things posted here 10-15 years ago.

It seems that many see this as a situation where if we don't step up, Russia will attacking NATO countries before we know it. I don't see that, I think the treaties in place will prevent aggression towards NATO countries.

Beyond that, it sucks for Ukraine, sure, but where's the limit? Do we just keep putting money on the credit card to help them fight a war they simply cannot win, eternally? What's the end game if Ukraine isn't going to win / regain all their land (as Zelensky demands)?

you are making the exact same arguments the "America First" people did in the 30's. Of course we can't know in advance how far Putin will go, just as we didn't then with Hitler. Thankfully, the America First people lost. This time they won. Will Trump honor NATO treaties if say Putin rolls into Poland? I wouldn't bet he would. I'd also bet plenty of people right here will happily defend Trump for letting NATO die...

As to the venom, I am not looking for another vacation and since you have that power I think I'll leave that response out.

 

[jthomas666]

Okay?

Our arming of the Allies in the early 1940's was what got us dragged into WWII. I'd rather not get dragged into WWIII.

Do you honestly think that the Axis powers would have left us alone after conquering the rest of the world?

 

[Bazza]

I take it from the perspective of what would I want if say the Cubans landed in Mobile AL, pushed north to Montgomery, west to New Orleans and east to Tallahassee. Would you want to cede that land to them after losing 40K Americans in the fight to date? I wouldn't but this is exactly what you are asking Ukraine to do....

If it had gone on for 3 years with no end in sight......and more Americans would be losing their lives and more property destroyed then (I'd like to think) I would like to see an end to it. Lot of factors would go into my decision so without that actually happening I can only postulate.

What you are suggesting though would never happen because we are much different than Ukraine. We'd squash any such invasion PDQ. Ukraine is dependent on others to help maintain their war and after 3 years with no end in sight I think it's time to just bring an end to it.

 

[AWRTR]

The problem is Ukraine CAN"T defeat Russia and reclaim all their territory without direct NATO intervention. Are any of you guys ready for that? That could equal WW3 and nuclear war very quickly. If I thought Ukraine could get it done then I would be for continuing to the end, but they aren't. That means an offramp has to be found. Peace has to be brokered and no one will get all their demands met. I hate it for Ukraine, but I haven't seen any serious people with real knowledge saying Ukraine can beat Russia on the battlefield to the point of driving them out of all Ukrainian territory. Grandstanding about WW2 or an invasion of US territory is in no way equal to what is happening in Ukraine today.

 

[JDCrimson]

its no big deal, they we were suckers for getting killed in the first place over a piece of ground...

yes your concern for the people of Ukraine has been noted

and again it is sad. Let those 43K dead throw their lives away so that Putin can have his win

 

[JDCrimson]

Only to allow Russia to regroup over the next 8-10 years to take another bite? I can assure you that any ceasefire will just be considered an intermission in their objective to reunite all the USSR states under the Russian flag.

The war has been going on for what....3 years now? Doesn't seem like either party will get what they want so I'm in favor of ending it - period.

See @AWRTR 's post above as well for what I feel is an accurate assessment.

People can make whatever argument they want for or against the war. I'm for ending it today if it saves lives and stops the destruction.

 

[JDCrimson]

So what would we do if that wasnt a calculus for the US?

Its probably for another thread but if we are serious about balancing our budget or reducing our national debt then Russia must be broken up. Russia steals billions from our economy every year through financial fraud, sows unrest in every democracy in the world. If we are going to focus on these domestic objectives in a meaningful way then we might as well hand the keys to Europe to Russia.

The only reason that Clinton enjoyed a budget surplus that one year was because he was President in likely the most peaceful time in international history and there was still a relatively equitable tax scheme for the wealthy.

I can't speak for Bazza but I'd be happy to use our resources to fight those invading our country.

 

[JDCrimson]

I don't know how Ukraine pivots if the US withdraws support but if they can they should try to turn the invasion into an Afghanistan or Vietnam for Russia.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Its probably for another thread but if we are serious about balancing our budget or reducing our national debt then Russia must be broken up. Russia steals billions from our economy every year through financial fraud, sows unrest in every democracy in the world. If we are going to focus on these domestic objectives in a meaningful way then we might as well hand the keys to Europe to Russia.

NATO is a treaty worth defending, assuming the EU countries pull their weight economically / militarily.

I don't know how Ukraine pivots if the US withdraws support but if they can they should try to turn the invasion into an Afghanistan or Vietnam for Russia.

I agree - the first thing Ukraine has to do if they really want to extend the fight with Russia is actually use the 18-25 year old males in the war. If they truly believe their national existence is at risk I cannot wrap my head around why you wouldn't use the most aggressive fighters you can possibly field. Not wanting to 'lose a generationi while facing eradication seems incredibly short-sighted.

 

[Tidewater]

yes your concern for the people of Ukraine has been noted

and again it is sad. Let those 43K dead throw their lives away so that Putin can have his win

I look at it as 43,000 died so that an independent Ukraine can still exist at all.
Throughout the Cold War, maps produced by the United States government labeled Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia as "temporarily occupied countries." Eventually, they were no longer occupied.
As for continuing the war, every day Ukraine loses more and more territory. I do not see how any amount of Western aid is going to turn that around, especially given that Ukraine still is not conscripting 18-25 year olds.
If there is a plan to retake the occupied Ukrainian territories, I'd love to see it. In the absence of that, those arguing for prolonging the war are simply arguing (in effect) for Ukraine to lose even more territory before it is over, perhaps to lose all of it should the Ukrainian defenses suddenly collapse.

 

[Bamaro]

Nice straw man (you're good at building those).

If this were happening in a way that could directly affect the US, I'd have some interest in the fight. But this isn't our fight anymore than it was when the Russians invaded Georgia. Were you also this gung-ho to defend the Georgians? I don't recall anything about it here. Heck I don't recall anyone here wanting Obama to help Ukraine when Russia invaded Crimea.

Not every fight requires US sacrifice.

If we can basically pay someone else to fight Russia I'm all for it. They are willing to fight for their freedom so I'm glad we're supporting them.

 

[Tidewater]

If we can basically pay someone else to fight Russia I'm all for it. They are willing to fight for their freedom so I'm glad we're supporting them.

I am as well within limits.
It is possible that support to Ukraine means digging into US war stock so much that it jeopardizes the US ability to deter and defend Taiwan and NATO proper.
How much risk to the US are you willing to accept to support Ukraine's war? Would you be willing to place US support to Taiwan and NATO-proper at slight risk in order to air Ukraine, Serious risk? Extreme risk?
Plus, while nothing in war is guaranteed, I would hope that the president's military advisors are providing their professional assessment as to whether this or that aid will enable Ukraine to reconquer lost land or even stop further terrain losses, what weapons systems in what quantities should we be sending to Ukraine?

 

[AWRTR]

Only to allow Russia to regroup over the next 8-10 years to take another bite? I can assure you that any ceasefire will just be considered an intermission in their objective to reunite all the USSR states under the Russian flag.

Depends on what the conditions of the end of the war are. If Ukraine gets nato membership and EU membership while being sold arms and trained by the US and other NATO countries Russia won’t come back. They won’t risk general war with nato. They have shown they have no hope of winning or even holding out in that conflict. They also have a demographic issue so bad they won’t have enough young men to invade anyone.

 

[Jon]

I look at it as 43,000 died so that an independent Ukraine can still exist at all.
Throughout the Cold War, maps produced by the United States government labeled Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia as "temporarily occupied countries." Eventually, they were no longer occupied.
As for continuing the war, every day Ukraine loses more and more territory. I do not see how any amount of Western aid is going to turn that around, especially given that Ukraine still is not conscripting 18-25 year olds.
If there is a plan to retake the occupied Ukrainian territories, I'd love to see it. In the absence of that, those arguing for prolonging the war are simply arguing (in effect) for Ukraine to lose even more territory before it is over, perhaps to lose all of it should the Ukrainian defenses suddenly collapse.

that is a better argument than any other I've seen in this thread (or the one my post came from that found its way here) and isn't simply "placate Putin" because we lack to will or have be desensitized to the plight of the Ukrainian people from Russian propaganda. Thinking of it this way does give me pause. Justice for Ukraine gets them 100% of their territory back, but I get that doesn't align with the current reality. I keep going back to us promising to protect Ukraine if they hand over their nukes. They did and we haven't and it bothers me greatly. Frankly it bothered me even more under Obama. We should have done more when Crimea was taken

 

[Bamaro]

that is a better argument than any other I've seen in this thread (or the one my post came from that found its way here) and isn't simply "placate Putin" because we lack to will or have be desensitized to the plight of the Ukrainian people from Russian propaganda. Thinking of it this way does give me pause. Justice for Ukraine gets them 100% of their territory back, but I get that doesn't align with the current reality. I keep going back to us promising to protect Ukraine if they hand over their nukes. They did and we haven't and it bothers me greatly. Frankly it bothered me even more under Obama. We should have done more when Crimea was taken

Ukraine sat by with little resistance then. This time Ukraine was all in.