SEC vs Big 10 All-Time: An Analysis and Discussion

[TideEngineer08]

Alabama had quite a few games with Penn State where they headed up north. The had a home and home with Penn State in 2010 and 2011 where Bama won both games and back in the 1980's (before Penn State joined the B1G) they had a 10 game series with each other where Bama won 6 games (should have been 7 without the stolen game in 1983).

Of course, a lot of them (the B1G people Selma is referring to) would say yeah but those games were always in September (or October). They are always moving the goalposts.

 

[TexasBama]

It looks like we've played the current Big 10 teams a combined 39 games. 15 of those were against Penn State. We've never played Northwestern, Indiana, Iowa, or Purdue.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This is the full list of REGULAR SEASON B1G vs SEC games. (H) designates the game is played at the SEC HOME VENUE. (A) designates the B1G HOME VENUE. And (N) is a neutral site.

1. (H) 2022/09/17 Auburn 12 - Penn State 41 L
2. (A) 2021/09/18 Auburn 20 - Penn State 28 L
3. (A) 2019/09/07 Vanderbilt 24 - Purdue 42 L
4. (A) 2018/09/15 Missouri 40 - Purdue 37 W
5. (H) 2017/09/16 Missouri 3 - Purdue 35 L
6. (N) 2017/09/02 Florida 17 - Michigan 33 L
7. (N) 2016/09/03 Louisiana State 14 - Wisconsin 16 L
8. (N) 2015/09/05 Alabama 35 - Wisconsin 17 W
9. (H) 2014/09/20 Missouri 27 - Indiana 31 L
10. (N) 2014/08/30 Louisiana State 28 - Wisconsin 24 W

11. (A) 2013/09/21 Missouri 45 - Indiana 28 W
12. (A) 2012/09/08 Vanderbilt 13 - Northwestern 23 L
13. (N) 2012/09/01 Alabama 41 - Michigan 14 W
14.(A) 2011/09/10 Alabama 27 - Penn State 11 W
15. (H) 2010/09/11 Alabama 24 - Penn State 3 W
16. (H) 2010/09/04 Vanderbilt 21 - Northwestern 23 L
17. (A) 2006/09/02 Vanderbilt 7 - Michigan 27 L
18. (A) 2005/09/17 Kentucky 14 - Indiana 38 L
19. (H) 2004/09/18 Kentucky 51 - Indiana 32 W
20. (A) 2003/09/20 Kentucky 34 - Indiana 17 W

21. (H) 2002/09/14 Kentucky 27 - Indiana 17 W
22. (A) 2001/12/01 Kentucky 15 - Indiana 26 L
23. (H) 2000/09/16 Kentucky 41 - Indiana 34 W
24. (A) 1999/09/18 Kentucky 44 - Indiana 35 W
25. (H) 1998/09/19 Kentucky 31 - Indiana 27 W
26. (A) 1997/09/20 Kentucky 49 - Indiana 7 W
27. (H) 1996/09/21 Kentucky 3 - Indiana 0 W
28. (A) 1995/09/16 Kentucky 17 - Indiana 10 W
29. (H) 1994/09/17 Kentucky 29 - Indiana 59 L
30. (A) 1993/09/18 Kentucky 8 - Indiana 24 L

31. (H) 1992/09/19 Kentucky 37 - Indiana 25 W
32. (A) 1991/09/21 Kentucky 10 - Indiana 13 L
33. (H) 1990/09/15 Kentucky 24 - Indiana 45 L
34. (H) 1989/09/09 Kentucky 17 - Indiana 14 W
35. (A) 1988/09/24 Louisiana State 33 - Ohio State 36 L
36. (A) 1988/09/17 Kentucky 15 - Indiana 36 L
37. (H) 1987/09/26 Louisiana State 13 - Ohio State 13 T
38. (H) 1987/09/19 Kentucky 34 - Indiana 15 W
39. (N) 1987/08/30 Tennessee 23 - Iowa 22 W
40. (N) 1986/08/27 Alabama 16 - Ohio State 10 W

41. (A) 1984/09/15 Kentucky 48 - Indiana 14 W
42. (H) 1983/09/17 Kentucky 24 - Indiana 13 W
43. (A) 1980/10/04 Mississippi State 28 - Illinois 21 W
44. (H) 1980/09/20 Kentucky 30 - Indiana 36 L
45. (A) 1979/09/22 Kentucky 10 - Indiana 18 L
46. (A) 1979/09/15 Vanderbilt 13 - Indiana 44 L
47. (H) 1978/09/16 Louisiana State 24 - Indiana 17 W
48. (A) 1977/09/17 Louisiana State 21 - Indiana 24 L
49. (H) 1974/09/28 Kentucky 28 - Indiana 22 W
50. (A) 1973/09/29 Kentucky 3 - Indiana 17 L

51. (H) 1972/09/30 Kentucky 34 - Indiana 35 L
52. (H) 1972/09/30 Louisiana State 27 - Wisconsin 7 W
53. (A) 1971/09/25 Louisiana State 38 - Wisconsin 28 W
54. (A) 1971/09/18 Kentucky 8 - Indiana 26 L
55. (H) 1969/09/20 Kentucky 30 - Indiana 58 L
56. (A) 1969/09/20 Vanderbilt 14 - Michigan 42 L
57. (H) 1967/09/23 Florida 14 - Illinois 0 W
58. (A) 1967/09/23 Kentucky 10 - Indiana 12 L
59. (H) 1966/09/17 Florida 43 - Northwestern 7 W
60. (A) 1965/10/02 Georgia 15 - Michigan 7 W

61. (A) 1965/09/18 Florida 24 - Northwestern 14 W
62. (A) 1959/10/31 Vanderbilt 6 - Minnesota 20 L
63. (A) 1957/10/05 Georgia 0 - Michigan 26 L
64. (A) 1956/10/06 Tulane 20 - Northwestern 13 W
65. (H) 1955/10/01 Tulane 21 - Northwestern 0 W
66. (A) 1953/10/03 Tulane 7 - Michigan 26 L
67. (A) 1952/10/04 Vanderbilt 20 - Northwestern 20 T
68. (A) 1947/09/27 Vanderbilt 3 - Northwestern 0 W
69. (H) 1942/10/03 Vanderbilt 26 - Purdue 0 W
70. (A) 1941/09/27 Vanderbilt 3 - Purdue 0 W

71. (H) 1937/10/02 Vanderbilt 18 - Chicago 0 W
72. (A) 1936/10/03 Vanderbilt 37 - Chicago 0 W
73.(A) 1935/10/19 Tulane 0 - Minnesota 20 L
74. (A) 1935/10/05 Kentucky 6 - Ohio State 19 L
75. (A) 1934/10/20 Georgia Tech 2 - Michigan 9 L
76. (A) 1933/10/14 Vanderbilt 0 - Ohio State 20 L

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This is the list of SEC vs B1G REGULAR SEASON games excluding Vandy, Kentucky, Indiana, Northwestern, Chicago, Missouri, and Tulane:

1. (H) 2022/09/17 Auburn 12 - Penn State 41 L
2. (A) 2021/09/18 Auburn 20 - Penn State 28 L
3. (N) 2017/09/02 Florida 17 - Michigan 33 L
4. (N) 2016/09/03 Louisiana State 14 - Wisconsin 16 L
5. (N) 2015/09/05 Alabama 35 - Wisconsin 17 W
6. (N) 2014/08/30 Louisiana State 28 - Wisconsin 24 W
7. (N) 2012/09/01 Alabama 41 - Michigan 14 W
8.(A) 2011/09/10 Alabama 27 - Penn State 11 W
9. (H) 2010/09/11 Alabama 24 - Penn State 3 W
10. (A) 1988/09/24 Louisiana State 33 - Ohio State 36 L
11. (H) 1987/09/26 Louisiana State 13 - Ohio State 13 T
12. (N) 1987/08/30 Tennessee 23 - Iowa 22 W
13. (N) 1986/08/27 Alabama 16 - Ohio State 10 W
14. (A) 1980/10/04 Mississippi State 28 - Illinois 21 W
15. (H) 1972/09/30 Louisiana State 27 - Wisconsin 7 W
16. (A) 1971/09/25 Louisiana State 38 - Wisconsin 28 W
17. (H) 1967/09/23 Florida 14 - Illinois 0 W
18. (A) 1967/09/23 Kentucky 10 - Indiana 12 L
19. (A) 1965/10/02 Georgia 15 - Michigan 7 W
20. (A) 1957/10/05 Georgia 0 - Michigan 26 L
21. (A) 1934/10/20 Georgia Tech 2 - Michigan 9 L

Incredible.

We have people drawing conclusions from a data set of 21 games spread across 85 or so years that includes 5 games (4 Penn State, 1 Ga Tech) of teams that haven't been in the conference in or for a long time. That's a data set of 16 games.

Of those 21 games, NINE are at the B1G home stadium and SEVEN MORE are at a neutral site...meaning (if you make this stupid argument) the B1G is the ones afraid of playing road games given there's only been five...and Penn State played two of those five, and Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio State played one each.

 

[mrusso]

This is the list of SEC vs B1G REGULAR SEASON games excluding Vandy, Kentucky, Indiana, Northwestern, Chicago, Missouri, and Tulane:

1. (H) 2022/09/17 Auburn 12 - Penn State 41 L
2. (A) 2021/09/18 Auburn 20 - Penn State 28 L
3. (N) 2017/09/02 Florida 17 - Michigan 33 L
4. (N) 2016/09/03 Louisiana State 14 - Wisconsin 16 L
5. (N) 2015/09/05 Alabama 35 - Wisconsin 17 W
6. (N) 2014/08/30 Louisiana State 28 - Wisconsin 24 W
7. (N) 2012/09/01 Alabama 41 - Michigan 14 W
8.(A) 2011/09/10 Alabama 27 - Penn State 11 W
9. (H) 2010/09/11 Alabama 24 - Penn State 3 W
10. (A) 1988/09/24 Louisiana State 33 - Ohio State 36 L
11. (H) 1987/09/26 Louisiana State 13 - Ohio State 13 T
12. (N) 1987/08/30 Tennessee 23 - Iowa 22 W
13. (N) 1986/08/27 Alabama 16 - Ohio State 10 W
14. (A) 1980/10/04 Mississippi State 28 - Illinois 21 W
15. (H) 1972/09/30 Louisiana State 27 - Wisconsin 7 W
16. (A) 1971/09/25 Louisiana State 38 - Wisconsin 28 W
17. (H) 1967/09/23 Florida 14 - Illinois 0 W
18. (A) 1967/09/23 Kentucky 10 - Indiana 12 L
19. (A) 1965/10/02 Georgia 15 - Michigan 7 W
20. (A) 1957/10/05 Georgia 0 - Michigan 26 L
21. (A) 1934/10/20 Georgia Tech 2 - Michigan 9 L

Incredible.

We have people drawing conclusions from a data set of 21 games spread across 85 or so years that includes 5 games (4 Penn State, 1 Ga Tech) of teams that haven't been in the conference in or for a long time. That's a data set of 16 games.

Of those 21 games, NINE are at the B1G home stadium and SEVEN MORE are at a neutral site...meaning (if you make this stupid argument) the B1G is the ones afraid of playing road games given there's only been five...and Penn State played two of those five, and Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio State played one each.

Please stop cluttering self-righteous conclusions with facts. It throws the narrative off course.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Where did this carefully parsed word statement arise?

Prior to the 1980s, the Big Ten and SEC rarely met on the football field AT ALL - and these reasons were discussed in the OP. What increased the number of meetings between the two conferences was when the Big Ten, in 1974, saw the potential for making a ton of money for the conference by going to more than just the Rose Bowl. After all, since in those days the WINNER of the Ohio State-Michigan game went to the Rose Bowl, the LOSER was a drawing card for other bowl games. PLUS, if the other schools got good - as happened when scholarship restrictions began - the Big Ten has the largest campuses and alumni across the universities (generally speaking). So bring on the bowl games!!!

The first time any Big Ten team played in a non-Rose Bowl game AS A BIG TEN TEAM* was when Michigan faced Oklahoma in the 1976 Orange Bowl. Starting a Big Ten tradition, they lost.

The Briefest History
CFB began in New Jersey in 1869 and for the first 30 years or so, it was largely an amateur sport - with the expected shenanigans of players who never set foot on the campus of Harvard or Yale EXCEPT to play football occurring frequently and requiring oversight. The first "powers" in the sport were the what is now (since 1937) called the Ivy League teams. Amos Alonzo Stagg played under Walter Camp, generally considered the organizer of the sport, and took his concepts to the University of Chicago, which was in the Western Conference (later called the Big 10). Stagg coached for 65 years and filled the sport with his former players and coaches while at the same time, some coaches of Camp and Fielding Yost wound up in the NFL in 1920 (George Halas played at Illinois using the same basic concepts Stagg and Yost taught). In short, the powers of the sport moved from the Northeast to the Midwest, which dominated basically from the mid-teens until the 1960s. They dominated the polls because they were familiar and near the bigger media markets, and the South isolated itself in so many ways. Then in the 1963 Rose Bowl - the first ever shown in color on TV - USC beat Wisconsin, and the power of the game moved to Los Angeles and the West Coast. Nobody out West got any attention prior to then but look at who won the Heisman Trophies all of a sudden:

1962 - Terry Baker, Oregon St
1965 - Mike Garrett, USC
1967 - Gary Beban, UCLA
1968 - The Brentwood Butcher, USC
1970 - Jim Plunkett, Stanford

The West went from 0 Heisman winners to 5 in 9 years as the power of the sport shifted all the way West - thanks in part to Tommy Prothro, who was the head coach of both Baker and Beban. And who followed Prothro at UCLA just two years later - as the OC?

Homer Smith.

So throughout the 1970s, the PERCEPTION was that Oklahoma played big-time defense, the West Coast played big-time offense - and Alabama feasted on an array of 5-6 SEC teams who couldn't do very much from year to year. Alabama contributed to this by going 0-8-1 in bowl games ("See? Alabama can't beat anybody except a cupcake at home!").

Even with our national championships to end the decade, the complaint was, "But they didn't deserve it because USC beat them head-to-head in Bham!!" This, too, was a valid point.

But then came the 1980s...



*Michigan State played Auburn as an independent in the 1938 Orange Bowl. And lost, of course.

 

[J0eW]

"Bowl games are all in warm weather venues."

The first half of the '90s I lived and worked in T'town. Pre-Dubose era. My wife had a friend who moved from Birmingham to Denver. This occurred during this period.
When this friend visited T'town one November, we fed and entertained him one afternoon and evening. We were all on the porch while I grilled. After about a half hour, the friend's teeth were chattering. My wife and I were fine but the friend was freezing. The temperature in Denver was well below that in T'town. I told them to go inside and warm up. The friend warmed up, my wife visited, and I finished grilling.
Later on, I pondered on this issue and came to the conclusion of humidity and wet bulb versus dry bulb temps.
I wonder if the BIG has dry winters like Denver?

 

[selmaborntidefan]

THE BOWL GAMES OF THE 70s...and 80s (SORT OF)

As the SEC transitioned from an all-white conference to a fully integrated one, they continued to get clobbered in prominent bowl games. The SEC record in bowls in the 70s is not something on which to hang one's hat.

1970 - 2-2-1 (one loss was Ole Miss to Auburn, but Alabama had a tie and the other "win" was over AFA)
1971 - 4-2, but Alabama and Auburn (both unbeaten at the IB) got smoked by the Big 8 teams, and two of the wins were narrow over what should have been inferior opposition
1972 - 2-2, and the former #1 (Alabama) AGAIN lost a bowl game
1973 - 1-4, with a one-point win, a blowout loss, and #1 losing to ND in the Sugar Bowl
1974 - 3-3-1, with losses in the Sugar and Orange, one win by MSU, the tie by Vandy
1975 - 1-2, two blowout losses and Alabama accused of ducking Nebraska for easier Penn St
1976 - 1-2, a blowout win by Alabama and two blowout losses
1977 - 1-1, Alabama with a blowout win over Ohio State, LSU with a blowout loss (UK on probation)
1978 - 1-2, Alabama with the only win on the GLS
1979 - 2-1, won national title, Vols lost the Bluebonnet Bowl late in last game of 1970s - to Purdue

So in that list, you have a proud and boasting conference with an overall record of 18-21-3...and four of the wins were by Alabama, making the overall look even worse, particularly when 1/3 of the SEC losses were blowouts. And entering the 1980s, the Big Ten had a 17-16-1 record vs the SEC. As noted, most of those games involved Vandy or Kentucky or Northwestern, so who really cared?

But things began to change:

1980 - 3-1 - 3 blowout wins, the loss was MSU to Nebraska, and nobody gave MSU a chance anyway
1981 - 2-3 - but 2 losses were very late in NYD bowl games, so wasn't viewed so badly
1982 - 2-4 - #1 fell but all 4 losses were close and could have gone either way.
1983 - 5-2 - Alabama stunned heavily favored SMU in the Sun Bowl, and the SEC cleaned up

The 1983-84 bowl season began as too many had - with a 6-5 SEC school (Ole Miss) losing to a team nobody took seriously, Air Force. It should be noted that Ole Miss was 3 plays away from being a 3-8 team (they were 4-7 in 1982), the most famous being the infamous wind blown missed FG that won the Land Shark/Black Bear/Rebs the Egg Bowl, so losing to #16 Air Force (who had beaten Notre Dame) wasn't that big a shock. But then unranked Tennessee stunned #16 Maryland, unranked Kentucky nearly upset #18 WVA, and Alabama throttled SMU, 28-7, in a bowl game that prior to the game was being dismissed as no contest. Florida edged Iowa in the Gator Bowl, but the result was dismissed as predictable because it was a home game for the Gators (basically).

Then came the earthquake that really wasn't noticed at the time but in retrospect is the shifting day.

January 2, 1984
If ever any one post-season - and especially any single day - showed the fulcrum of power shifting in college football, it was Monday, January 2, 1984. What happened on that day was a seismic shift of college football that drove the point home as to what COULD happen with Southern-based teams

Miami shocked the world by upsetting #1 Nebraska, 31-30, in the Orange Bowl. The Huskers were a two-touchdown favorite...and fell behind, 17-0, in the first half. Joe Namath on the sidelines with his old coach, Howard Schnellenberger, was added to the game largely because nobody expected a close contest. Of course, Miami isn't an SEC team - but they were led by an SEC coach.

Georgia then shocked Texas in the Cotton Bowl, stunning a nationwide audience who for four months had been told "the championship game" was going to be Texas vs Nebraska...if only there weren't bowl obligations! And even though they never scored a TD, Auburn upset Michigan, 9-7, the first time Auburn ever won the Sugar Bowl. UCLA pancaked Illinois, 45-9, ruining a season's worth of hype about how this was the best Illinois team since Dick Butkus was playing linebacker for them.

The South had triumphed in every way possible.

1984 - 3-2
1985 - 2-2-1 - Tennessee smashed #1 claimant Miami, 35-7, in the Sugar Bowl
1986 - 4-2
1987 - 3-2-1
1988 - 3-2
1989 - 3-3

So the SEC bowl record AFTER a rough two years (81-82) looked pretty good.

And there was also this vicious reality:

1980/10/04 Mississippi State 28 - AT Illinois 21 W
1981/12/13 Tennessee 28 - Wisconsin 21 W !! Garden State Bowl !!
1982/12/29 Alabama 21 - Illinois 15 W !! Liberty Bowl !!
1982/12/31 Tennessee 22 - Iowa 28 L !! Peach Bowl !!
1983/12/30 Florida 14 - Iowa 6 W !! Gator Bowl !!
1984/01/02 Auburn 9 - Michigan 7 W !! Sugar Bowl !!
1984/12/29 Kentucky 20 - Wisconsin 19 W !! Hall of Fame Classic !!
1986/08/27 Alabama 16 - Ohio State 10 W (Kickoff Classic)
1986/12/29 Tennessee 21 - Minnesota 14 W !! Liberty Bowl !!
1987/08/30 Tennessee 23 - Iowa 22 W (Kickoff Classic)
1987/09/26 AT Louisiana State 13 - Ohio State 13 T
1988/01/02 Tennessee 27 - Indiana 22 W !! Peach Bowl !!
1988/01/02 Alabama 24 - Michigan 28 L !! Hall of Fame Bowl !!
1988/09/24 Louisiana State 33 - AT Ohio State 36 L
1988/12/29 Florida 14 - Illinois 10 W !! All American Bowl !!
1989/01/01 Georgia 34 - Michigan State 27 W !! Gator Bowl !!
1990/01/01 Auburn 31 - Ohio State 14 W !! Hall of Fame Bowl !!

Cutting out the Kentucky-Indiana "almost annual scrum," the Big Ten got its collective rear-end handed to it by the SEC in the 1980s. The SEC went 17-5-1 (overall), and excluding the Basketball War, the SEC went 13-3-1, beating EIGHT of the ten B1G teams on the field of play. The only two teams to not get inflicted with a loss were Purdue and Northwestern, who faced 0 SEC teams in the decade.

The narrative that carried from the 70s was "the SEC looks so good until they play teams from other regions of the country - and then they lose. Look at Alabama losing four times to Notre Dame, losing to Nebraska on the road, losing to USC, losing to Texas. THEY CAN'T BEAT TEAMS OUTSIDE THE REGION!!"

But when the SEC began beating the B1G like the fresh fish in a prison, well, all of a sudden an excuse had to be found rather than admit those bumpkins could play some good football.

Since the SWC had more teams on probation than a prison warden, "they cheat" was the common one. Another one - and there are recent articles using this non-PC term - were to say teams had "a plantation mentality", the charge largely aimed at schools in the South and Southwest. (There was also a connotation of racism in that charge - since the integration era robbed Northern and Western teams of Southern recruits, who no longer had to leave their region - and term; there will always be more blacks on Southern teams than northern teams. But as time went on, those charges were undercut because northern teams weren't exactly innocent.

And even though they weren't Big Ten, the team they liked to hang their hat on in the Midwest - Notre Dame - was torpedoed as a loose cannon program when Don Yaeger published "Under the Tarnished Dome" about shenanigans at South Bend under Holtz in 1993. Michigan State got smashed with a major probation in 1995, and UCLA got hit with sanctions at the end of the decade.

So.....how do you cut the king down to size????

 

[selmaborntidefan]

There's also this:

From 2012:
Arkansas schedules home-and-home football series with Michigan for 2018-19 – Fayetteville Flyer

You see, Michigan was going to play Arkansas...JUST SO LONG as Arkansas came to Michigan first in 2018.

But then...in 2016:

Michigan cancels football series with Arkansas (arkansasonline.com)

Arkansas' football series against Michigan has been canceled in order for the Wolverines to resume their rivalry with Notre Dame.

=====================

Now, could I not make a huge deal about the fact Michigan REFUSES to play any SEC team EVER on the road except (cough!) Vandy?

I mean, unlike all those "afraid to play up north in November" whines, I have actual evidence Michigan signed to play a game and then backed out as the day got closer.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

The bowl game sagas continued in the 1990s, Part I.

WARNING: This post will go all over the place.

SEC RECORD
1990 - 2-2 (both losses were blowouts, 34-7 and 35-3, by Alabama and Ole Miss
1991 - 2-3

On New Year's Day 1992, Penn State smashed Tennessee while Florida collapsed in the 4th quarter against Notre Dame and lost as well. Throw in MSU's blowout loss to Air Force, and the SEC had three blowouts in a matter of days plus Alabama's lackluster win over Colorado in the Blockbuster Bowl. (What looked to be a good game on paper was sloppy and uninspiring). Plus - by 1991 - the SEC had not had a national title contender in the picture entering the bowls in a decade. The SEC reasoning was "well, our teams beat each other up during the season, so nobody makes the national title game."


And there was SOME TRUTH in that statement if you simply look:

1981 - Alabama, Georgia
1982 - Georgia
1983 - Auburn
1984 - Florida
1985 - Tennessee
1986 - LSU

Only once in SEC history was the parity this close - right after the imbalanced WW2 era and when schools scheduled conference games at their own whim without oversight. This is why Alabama went literally decades without playing Auburn, Ole Miss, or LSU. But this wasn't "just" an Alabama thing. Remember - back then the only money you got was filling your stadium - so it made sense for 1957 Alabama to play 8 conference games plus USM and TCU. It also made sense for MSU to play seven conference games plus Memphis and Arky State in a 9-game season.

Here's the SEC Record against other conferences in the 1980s:
vs Big Ten 17-5-1
vs ACC 37-21-2
vs Big Eight 10-14-1
vs Pac 12 18-5-3
vs SWC 27-16-1

The SEC more than held its own against four of the OTHER "Big Five" conferences. The SEC played 23 games total against the B1G, 60 against the ACC, 25 against the Big 8, 26 against the then Pac 10, and 44 against the SWC.

Why did the Big 8 alone have a winning record against the SEC?
Well, there's a lot of reasons.

1) The following SEC teams played ZERO Big 8 opponents in the 80s:
Alabama
Florida
Georgia

Other than Auburn (starting in 1983), these were (largely) the best teams of the decade - and the Big 8 didn't play those best teams a single time. They DID face Auburn four times, but it's kind of a wash. Auburn lost to Nebraska in 1981 and 1982 - when Auburn's record was 14-9 while Nebraska's was 21-4, and Auburn was suffering probation fallout. Meanwhile, the Tigs beat Kansas twice, which is about like bragging about beating Vandy, which the Big 8 did for 2 more of their wins.

2) Bowl game obligations to the Big Two in both leagues combined with the uncertainty of scheduling and imbalanced schedules (the Big 8 played round robin, 7 games, while the SEC had a limit of six until 1988)

Of the 14 wins, the following teams accounted for them:
Kentucky - 4
MSU - 3
LSU - 3 (all in bowl games)
Auburn - 2
Vandy - 2

Of course, we can turn that around:
Kansas - 3
Kansas St - 3
Iowa St - 2

So the SEC won 10 games...and 8 of them were the up chuckers of the league. Oklahoma played Kentucky twice, the only SEC team they faced during the decade. Nebraska DID go 5-0, but at no time did they play the best team in the SEC, either. LSU got the 1983 Orange Bowl as the SEC runner-up, who lost to (of all teams) 5-6 MSU. LSU backed into the 1985 Sugar Bowl when: a) Florida opted to take a bowl ban due to a pending probation; b) Pat Dye outsmarted himself in the Iron Bowl.

And even in 1986, LSU really had no business beating Alabama but did thanks to two Bobby Humphrey fumbles.

And I'm telling you now that Alabama team would have given that Nebraska team far more competition.

3) Other than Nebraska, none of the top teams in either conference REALLY PLAYED SEC teams.

Again - this is not to blame them or anyone. Oklahoma didn't play anyone but Kentucky, and Alabama, Florida, and Georgia didn't play anyone in the B8. And it does us well to remember that...

4) Schedules back then were ten years in advance and -key point - dated back to the time when games could NOT be shown on TV.

Subtract 5-10 years from games to learn when they were scheduled back then. Nebraska went into every season knowing SEVEN of their 11 games were already predetermined. To facilitate and make scheduling easier, the general rule of thumb was, "Conference play begins the 1st/2nd week of October." There were OBVIOUS exceptions permitted. Texas and OU (nearly) always played the 2nd Saturday in October, and N Dame and USC had their "November here, October there" setup. But GENERALLY SPEAKING, conference play began in mid-October for EVERYONE. The Big Ten - with 8 conference games (while the Big 8 had seven) - started a week earlier and had fewer OOC games.

Pick a team and a year and go look at their schedule.

For example, 1977 Nebraska had 4 straight games - Wazzu, Alabama, Baylor, Indiana (a decent enough schedule) - and then played 6 straight Big 8 opponents and were off the week prior to the OU game. OU's setup was similar EXCEPT for the fact that they started their conference schedule one week earlier and inserted Texas into the mix.

5) The SEC scheduled differently BECAUSE THEY HAD TO DO SO.

It's not any different than today. The NON-SEC/ACC conferences had 1-2 fewer conference games. Back in those pre-TV days, Ole Miss made more money because of the gate playing Memphis than they would facing Kentucky ("must miss TV" had it been scheduled). MSU drew more playing USM in a state rivalry game than they would have facing any Pac-10 team on the road or an untelevised contest against UK, too. (MSU usually drew money with Vandy because it was one of the few games where their fans felt they might actually win).


===========================================================
MORE 80s COMMENTARY

The larger point should not be lost, though. There IS a ton of evidence that the 1980s SEC teams failed to come up big in the national championship vote LARGELY because they wiped out each other during the season, a war of attrition that eliminated every SEC team from contention.

Take 1986, for example, and consider who Alabama played that year before coughing away the LSU game. The Tide opened in Jersey with Ohio State - this just days after a member of the team (Willie Ryles) died. Alabama won. After Vandy and USM, the Tide played a Florida team that was 27-5-3 in their previous 35 games and coming off a bye IN GAINESVILLE. Alabama won, got an off week - and in an emotional release, FINALLY beat Notre Dame for the first-time ever. Two weeks later, the Tide ended four years of frustration by nuking Tennessee back to the Stone Age.

But by the time of Penn State, Alabama had played FOUR emotional, highly charged games against two Blue Blood programs, an up and coming program with recent success (though not by any "recognized" selectors, Florida was actually selected national champions by more outlets than BYU was - just not the ones that "counted" in 1984), and a longtime archrival.

Who did Penn State play prior to that game?
6-5 Temple at home
bye week before tough game
9-3 BC at Foxboro
2-9 E Carolina
5-5-1 Rutgers
5-6 Cincinnati
5-6 Syracuse

Penn State basically got a double bang for their schedule. Because they played a cluster of 5-6 teams, it ran up the wins total, and nobody - not in 1986 - was going to say, "Alabama and Notre Dame aren't really that good" (and to be fair, Alabama WAS good).

The point is this: Penn State cruised through an early season with one tough game - that just so happened to be that opponent's FIRST game of the year and following an off week for the Lions. I'm NOT discrediting their accomplishment in ANY way - but the fact is that Alabama entered that game battered from competition - and Penn State came in having played one semi-decent foe after an off week and a bunch of Eastern garbage. Notre Dame 1986 was NOT Notre Dame 1988, folks.

The details get lost in history - and here's all people REALLY remember nowadays about the 1987 Fiesta Bowl:
a) they rescheduled the game for the day AFTER New Year's
b) Jerry Sandusky (yikes!)
c) Miami showing up in combat fatigues and acting like miniature hoodlums
d) Penn State won the game

Time dims the average memory so that they don't REALLY remember:
- Penn State only had 8 first downs
- Miami had only 2 fewer RUSHING yards than Penn State had TOTAL yards
- Penn State did not get a single first down on the Miami side of the 50 in the 2nd half
- 74 of Penn State's 162 total yards came on a 2nd quarter TD drive

Basically, the 1987 Fiesta Bowl was (almost) the 2011 Alabama-LSU game except the missed kicks were turnovers. We all know what happened in the rematch.


The SEC's best teams during that era of parity, by contrast, mauled one another out of competition early. The only SEC team even remotely in contention for the national championship after October from 1983-91 was 1989 Alabama, who then lost their last two games, including the bowl.

The next post will look at the 90s bowl games and follow-up the reality of scheduling.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Short answer:

THE PACK DYNASTY AND THEIR STATES OF ORIGIN (SEC PLAYERS IN BOLD)
Bart Starr - Alabama
Paul Hornung - Kentucky
Elijah Pitts - Arkansas
Max McGee - Texas (Tulane)
Jim Taylor - Louisiana
Caroll Dale - Virginia
Marv Fleming - Texas
Bill Curry - Georgia (Tech)
Forrest Gregg - Texas

(That's NINE of the starting 11 of the Super Bowl I offense)
Willie Davis - Louisiana
Henry Jordan - Virginia
Lionel Aldridge - Louisiana
Lee Roy Caffey - Texas
Bob Jeter - South Carolina

Now....3 of these guys (Pitts, Davis, and Jeter) PROBABLY play in the SEC but for segregation. But the FACT is this: FOURTEEN of the 22 starters on the 1966 Packers that won Super Bowl I were from the SOUTHERN UNITED STATES, you know, that region where "they're afraid to play games in the cold up north."

Bear in mind that ELEVEN of those 14 - fully 1/2 - played in the Ice Bowl the following season and beat Dallas.

(Hmm.....should I point out the only reason we remember this game is because the WARM WEATHER TEAM WAS LEADING until the final seconds???)

 

[selmaborntidefan]

SEC RECORD
1990 - 2-2 (both losses were blowouts, 34-7 and 35-3, by Alabama and Ole Miss
1991 - 2-3 (Florida collapsed late, UT and MSU choked it up huge)
1992 - 5-1 (including national champion Alabama; narrow MSU loss to UNC by 4)
1993 - 2-2 (unbeaten Auburn was ineligible)
1994 - 3-2 (9-1-1 Auburn still ineligible)
1995 - 2-4 (8-3 Alabama was ineligible, Florida got vivisected by Nebraska)
1996 - 5-0 (including national champion Florida)
1997 - 5-1 (including national champion "Deliverance")
1998 - 4-4
1999 - 4-4

The SEC and B1G didn't meet very much during the 90s, but the SEC maintained a five-game edge, four if one counts the bizarre IU-UK series, where the Hoosiers won 4 of 5 during the Bill Curry years then lost the next six in a row. Particularly impressive was a stretch from 1995-97, where the SEC went a dominating 9-1, 6-1 dropping the b-ball teams. Alabama, in particular, was successful, knocking off a very good Ohio State team in the 95 Citrus Bowl (a team with Orland Pace, Bobby Hoying, Terry Glenn, and Eddie George) and then winning the Outhouse Bowl against Michigan thanks to a dominating defensive performance.

January 1, 2000
If you were to ask me where IN MY MEMORY this whole "SEC up north" excuse began, I would point to internet postings in the year following the calendar turning to Y2K. On that day, the SEC and B1G met in 3 bowl games, and all three were classics that came down to the last play.

Georgia 28 Purdue 25
Michigan St 37 Florida 34
Michigan 35 Alabama 34

The conferences were rather evenly matched. The B1G went 5-2 as Penn State and Illinois won smashing blowouts, and Wisconsin beat Ty Willingham's Stanford team. Both conferences had 7 ranked teams. With a 2-0 B1G record in 1998, the Northern boys were 4-1 in the big boy games - and could very easily have swept them all, PLUS, they had won the Rose Bowl twice with Wisconsin AND they were running up points in other bowl games.

Alabama's loss to Michigan - and a then unknown Tom Brady - was well-known as was the fact that Alabama had somehow beaten Florida twice but lost to La Tech. But it was in the time frame basically between the beginning of 2000 and put on hold as of 9/11 that "the SEC thumps their chest, beats teams ranked BECAUSE they're in the SEC, and has a mediocre out of conference record." And right about that time, this one began to gain currency:

"Florida hasn't played any non-conference road games outside the Southeast since 1991 - and they lost that one!"

This is one of those statements that is "literally" true - but it paints a false picture, too. It ASSUMES and indicts Florida by innuendo - they're "skeered" to go play outside the South and OH YEAH, the reason (insinuated but never said) is "because they know they'll lose!".

In 1991, Florida went to Syracuse the week after beating Alabama and lost, 38-21, to what turned out to be a good (10-2) Orange team. But the part these yutzes always left out was that Florida played Florida State - the team of the 90s - EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!! Although Syracuse was NOT "a Big Ten team," the game WAS played UP NORTH. Sure, it was indoors in the Carrier Dome, but why spoil the narrative? But FLORIDA lay just enough eggs on national television - the 92 Sugar Bowl, the 96 Fiesta (most notably), the 34-7 blowout loss to Alabama in the 99 SECCG - to suggest, "You know, when those guys actually play a decent team away from the Swamp, they're pretty ordinary."

The SEC Narrative Vs The Emerging B1G Narrative

The "SEC narrative" was built in the 80s and reinforced by the conference championship game, particularly when Florida took Alabama out of contention in a 24-23 classic in 1994.

1985 - Georgia takes out Florida who takes out Tennessee who takes out Alabama
1986 - Ole Miss (8-3-1) takes out LSU who takes out Alabama (who was probably the best SEC team)
1987 - Alabama (7-5) takes out LSU and Tennessee - who takes out Auburn with a tie
1988 - Florida takes out LSU who takes out Auburn - who would have been undefeated and played Notre Dame in the Sugar Bowl if not for the final seconds "Earthquake" loss to LSU
1989 - Alabama took out Tennessee who took out Auburn who took out Alabama
1990 - Alabama took out Tennessee who took out Florida who took out Auburn - and all collapsed
1993 - Auburn took out Florida who took out Tennessee
1994 - Alabama took out Auburn who took out Florida who took out Alabama

For nearly a decade this happened. Granted, one or two of those are a bit of a stretch, but the losses by 1987 LSU (perhaps) and 1988 Auburn and 1994 Alabama (unquestionably) took teams out of the national title race. Indeed, the 1995 Sports Illustrated Almanac reviewing the 1994 season noted that when the SEC title game was created, the fear was that they would wipe out a team with national championship potential due to the pressure, grind, and potential injuries another game might cause.

"The Emerging B1G Narrative" of the late 90s basically ignored the fact that the SEC won two titles in three years winding down the decade, invoked the "SEC narrative" to the "Big Ten conference" (though most notably only Ohio State was actually affected by it when they kept losing to Michigan), looked at the many wins and narrow losses - and decided the only difference was that games in the Florida heat on January 1 were basically "home field advantage" that Michigan and Sparty overcome.

But it would take one more convoluted point to add to the argument - namely that part about "in November" - to complete the ridiculous assertion. And for that we had to wait until the 2006 season and a BCS controversy for the ages involving Ohio State and Michigan.