State of the FBS: Overpopulation

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
10,966
5,480
187
45
kraizy.art
I was considered writing this after the stipend discussion, again after reading the suggestion that Alabama play BSU in front of 30K fans, but, when I saw the Barnhart article it seemed like I should get to it.

Either the Mountain West Conference and the Western Athletic Conference field the best teams in college football (they represent half of the past ten undefeated teams in 1A), or things have become really watered down. As west coast driven media hype has reached a fervor, I think a lot of people have been mislead. After USC was passed over we've had to hear about west coast also-rans; Utah, BSU, and TCU quite often. In 2009 Alabama has a SoS of 2, and was ranked #1 by every major selector. BSU had a SoS of 96 and was ranked several spots below Alabama in a few polls (such as 5th by Sangarin). Yet, a few people had the audacity to claim BSU deserved a shot. Playoff advocates might decry the BCS and claim all undefeated teams deserve a chance, but to be clear, BSU played at a completely different football level. It's hard to explain the massive gap but just let the SoS difference sink in. There's 95 teams that played a tougher schedule than BSU. If that's baseball we've made our way to AA teams.

This is a complex issue that has history dating back over one hundred years. In order to understand the complexities I think a few things have to be considered. I apologize if I don't fully cover some issues or accidentally leave something out, obviously much research can be done.

Tradition:
One of the best things about college football is tradition. The first bowl game was in 1902. By contrast, the NFL wasn't even formed until 1920. The first selector of national champions was the Dickinson System in 1926. The NBL (NBA predecessor) was formed in 1937. The Helmes foundation started naming basketball champions in 1936 and the NCAA basketball tournament started in 1938. The AP got in on the action a little late, naming football champions in 1934, but even the AP poll represents a great deal of history.

College football has played bowl games and named national champions (without a playoff) since before some pro sports even existed. They beat college basketball to both a post season and naming national champions by a fair margin. This is important to me because when we consider changes to college football, we are messing with something with rich tradition and lengthy history. To hear someone flippantly say do away with the bowls, or toss out a method of naming national champions nearly 100 years old, is troubling to me. College football represents something significant, a special tradition that is rarely matched. Schools are not moved around like pro franchise and schools in many cases represent the only opportunity for the state to compete for championships on a national level. The FBS also gives us the most intense regular season in all of American sports. It's something special, to be cherished, and preserved.

BCS:
I don't want to make this a playoff vs. BCS discussion, but the issue can't be avoided. The BCS took two unique traditions of college football (bowl games and selectors) and incorporated them into a definitive championship. They dealt with the biggest issue (split championships). For instance, 1980, and 1981 saw 11 teams selected as national champions. Even at the height of anti-BCS fervor we haven't approached this level of confusion. In fact, the BCS has given us 6 unanimous champions, which is more unanimous champions than the entire active tenure of the selector's previously. It clarified things significantly and gave us a better picture of not only teams but entire conferences.

I believe the BCS does one of the best jobs of crowning both the most deserving and the best team. For instance, since the NCAA basketball tournament began in 1939, only 21 of the #1 ranked (in the AP, UPI, or USA Today) teams have gone on to win the tournament (UCLA represents 4 of the 7 teams who remained undefeated through the NCAA tournament, out of a possible 16). Are the polls wrong that often? Could they all be wrong over two-thirds of the time? They haven't know who the best team is since 2001 (Duke)? By contrast since the BCS began in 1998, the champion has been the #1 or #2 AP team every single time. 9 of those teams have been undefeated. If one looks at the regular season results, the BCS stands alone in demanding it's champion play like a champion for an entire season.

Football Welfare:
Prior to the creation of 1A (FBS) and 1AA (FCS), in 1978, being undefeated didn't mean all that much. It was possible to play a complete joke of a schedule due to the numerous teams and possibility of making a schedule without a single tough opponent. The result was several undefeated/untied teams that no selector recognized as national champions (such as Dartmouth in 1970, Louisiana Tech in 1972, Miami of Ohio in 1973, Arkansas St. in 1975, and Rutgers in 1976). This was remedied by the change to 1A/1AA. In 1979 Alabama had the only perfect record that year and was nearly unanimous national champion.

The NCAA laid the groundwork for the undoing of this at almost the same time. The 105 scholarship limit already existed since 1973, but it didn't seem to have much of an impact (it was a reasonable amount). In 1978 they switched to a 95 scholarship limit. While I'm not inclined to argue with this number, I do think it helped other programs. Programs like Miami, BYU, and Washington benefited under the parameters of the new scholarship limits.

The final round of reductions, which started in 1992 and ended in 1994, were ridiculous in my opinion. While 105 might have been a bit much, the reduction to 85 scholarships was and is a complete joke. If you want a perfect example of football welfare, this was it. Let's take the big boys down a notch and make sure everyone else can catch up. Not so coincidentally, 1996 brought us three new FBS teams (UCF, UAB, and Boise St.). In another not so coincidental occurrence, 1998 gave us the first perfect record team since 1976 that no selector named national champion. After Tulane in 1998, we had Marshal in 1999 which everyone knew was undeserving of championship consideration as well. Then, we have the aforementioned WAC/MWC undefeateds which make up 50% of the past ten perfect records.

For each scholarship they lowered the limit, there was a full roster worth of players without a scholarship. They were literally forced from the likes of SEC powers to BSU. In addition, it made it easier for programs with lower fan support to field teams. This does harm to programs like Clemson, who have 70,000 fans come out to each game but are hamstrung and forced to share athletes with programs with far lesser levels of support.

It's hard to find numbers, but I believe in 1995 we had 108 FBS teams. By 2004, (the start of the MWC/WAC run of undefeateds) there was 117 teams in the FBS. That's a conference full of FBS teams that magically appeared. By 2013 we will have 124 FBS teams. My gripe isn't just with the numbers, it's with the fact that we have a lot of interlopers that wouldn't even have FBS teams if not for the 85 scholarship limit. The Sun Belt averages 17 thousand per game. The MAC averages 15,600 per game, which means the entire conference shouldn't exist! I'm not joking either, a FBS team is supposed to average at least 15K attendance. I'm not sure how that conference is still around.

It isn't just attendance, Sagarin has the MAC ranked below two AA conferences and the Sun Belt comes in below four! So, they don't belong in the FBS, by either their level of fan support or their level of competitiveness. I'm not saying every team in those conferences has to go, but clearly the FBS could do without 22 teams and probably be better for it.

People see the symptoms, and instead of seeing what the problem is they imagine something else entirely. Instead of saying we have too many mediocre teams, they instead say let's have a playoff, do away with bowl games, conference championships, and the like.

Solution:
One counter to my argument is if I'm so in love with tradition why don't I want to go back to the pre-1978 combination of FBS and FCS? I imagine the FBS as something that has been polished and perfected over time. Dickinson's system wasn't perfect, but it was a start that led us to the BCS. The Rose Bowl followed the same path, leading to the other bowls and finally the BCS. We managed to improve what we had, without destroying it. The polls still matter and the bowl game tradition continues. The division of teams was a logical move as well, Only 48 college teams lay claim to a national championship and that list includes Princeton, Yale, Lafayette, Chicago, and Dartmouth. We don't need 124 FBS teams! To my knowledge the FBS is the only major sport in which one team has over 100,000 more fans show up to watch them play as another team and yet both purport to play at the same level.

From 1979-1997, the problem of meaningless perfect records was alleviated. In fact the 1980s didn't give us one instance of two perfect records in a single season. As the scholarship limits crept in, the undefeated teams went back up. However, it was still relatively manageable throughout the 90s.

The problem isn't just teams that wouldn't even be in FBS without the scholarship limits, or the sheer numbers, the issue is exaggerated by the concentration of football powers. As the major conferences grew, the left overs re-formed into increasingly weaker conferences that then augmented their numbers with shouldn't be FBS teams. Things have come to a head and they will only get worse as South Alabama and UTSA join the FBS.

There are only so many ways to turn the tide. I'd like stricter enforcement of the attendance requirement. They say 15K attendance every other year or something, but I count 9 teams that fall below that limit (Ball St. was below 9,000 but there's no talk of them leaving the FBS). How about a minimum of 10K, period? Or, why not a 20K minimum for conference average? I doubt this is going to happen. What about scholarship limits? If you upped it by a relatively small number (back up to 90), you'd seen an immediate impact. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening as well, although it makes a lot of sense.

The talk of stipends for players does provide a reasonable scenario. It would make for a forced separation of the schools. The question is can you get this past Title IX? I'm not sure. This brings us to a scenario like Barnhart (and many others) suggested. The big boys just pick up and move, leave the leeches behind (much like many did when they joined power conferences). This might ultimately become what happens. The more the little guys complain about the BCS (while demanding million dollar payday games), and obstruct things like stipends, the more the earners will become interested in leaving.

Conclusion:
If D1A is able to get under 100 teams a lot of the issues we have will go away. Many meaningless bowl games would cease to exist. Some gripes of both playoff advocates (undefeated teams with no chance to play for a championship) and playoff detractors (cupcake schedules) will be decreased. By numerical odds alone, there will be a reduction in undefeated teams but in practical applications it will become virtually impossible for a BSU to play a 96 SoS. The smaller pool will also bring greater clarity to the process. Regardless of how you feel about the BCS and bowl games, if you want to see a quality product in college football, a reduced pool of FBS teams would facilitate this. Personally, I believe this is the most sensible way to preserve the great tradition of the sport and to insure that what is gained, is earned and excellence will be rewarded.
 

jeremy

Suspended
Nov 22, 2004
3,419
0
0
Alabama
I havent read all of this yet, but just getting started into it...I dont subscribe to the logic that just because college football is really old and predates pro sports somehow means that everything is right with the current system. Hey, people used to believe the world was flat and the sun was a god. People believed these things were absolutely the truth. You shouldnt keep doing something just because its the way its always been done in the past.
 

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
10,966
5,480
187
45
kraizy.art
people used to believe the world was flat and the sun was a god. People believed these things were absolutely the truth. You shouldnt keep doing something just because its the way its always been done in the past.
Yeah, I know... crazy, huh? Some people think playoffs are the best way to determine champions, even though there's so much evidence that a playoff is an arbitrary process that quite often crowns an unworthy champion. 6th seed is the NFL champion, 9 loss team is the NCAA basketball champion, but you know... they won a playoff so we just mindlessly believe they are worthy.

To contrast this, (possible NCAA violations aside) I can't find a single BCS champion I could say has less of a claim than any other team. Why should we destroy so much tradition for something that by the evidence is far more likely to lead to an undeserving champion than it is to right some sort of injustice?

Anyway, the heart of what I had to say was there was something that could be done that virtually everyone here could agree with. Something that was neutral in terms of the BCS, and a playoff but would clear a lot of things up. Personally I'd much rather get rid of the football welfare teams than make radical changes though, especially if it's the football welfare teams we are making those changes for.
 
Last edited:

marcusroby

1st Team
Jan 7, 2004
414
2
137
auburn,al usa
I agree about especially getting rid of the teams with really low fan support. Don't everyone else down to the level of the have nots. That goes against capitalism.
 

Tide1986

Suspended
Nov 22, 2008
15,667
2
0
Birmingham, AL
Personally I'd much rather get rid of the football welfare teams than make radical changes though, especially if it's the football welfare teams we are making those changes for.
I've always been a proponent of reducing the number of IA teams...somewhere between 70 and 96 teams would work for me...as close to 70 as we can get would be ideal for me.
 

JDCrimson

Hall of Fame
Feb 12, 2006
6,485
6,488
187
52
The "haves" of the conferences on the outside looking in would be wise in discussing starting their own conference that petitions for inclusion in the BCS who I think would listen. If they did so, that would get you to the 100 teams more or less that you mention that are legitimately able to sustain the new demands of college football.

I dont think just because of the conference they are in that we should exclude teams like Air Force, Houston, Memphis, Fresno State, Nevada, SMU, BSU (I guess), etc. BCS 6 should formulate the new rules of the new association whereby they would extend invitation of one of the aforementioned teams (or others) - "If you want in here are the stipulations and you guys need to organize your own conference."

Such a move that is being discussed wont stop with football, it will change basketball and baseball too. Likewise, the other Title IX sports will be better funded as well by programs capable of doing it.

Simplistically speaking, we need 2 other conferences with 12 teams each balance the equation and then slam the door shut for next 20 years.
 

Redwood Forrest

Hall of Fame
Sep 19, 2003
11,292
1,286
287
78
Boaz, AL USA
One of my big gripes are people (and organizations/institutions) who make rules and then turn a blind eye to them. How can the NCAA punish tOSU or Auburn for breaking rules when they break their own cow bell rules and attendance rules weekly, year after year? Two faced, that is how.

This is what I would do, then realign the conferences.

Boot all who have a stadium which holds less than 50,000 fans. This would leave 62 teams in the FBS. You cannot play Big Boy football if you can’t get fifty thou in your stadium. Take a look at the teams who have been in the BCSCG since it was created. Heck, even Oregon has a 54,000 seat stadium, and everyone else has had over 65,000 seats in their home field.
 

Bamabuzzard

FB Moderator
Staff member
Aug 15, 2004
33,166
27,830
337
49
Where ever there's BBQ, Bourbon & Football
One of my big gripes are people (and organizations/institutions) who make rules and then turn a blind eye to them. How can the NCAA punish tOSU or Auburn for breaking rules when they break their own cow bell rules and attendance rules weekly, year after year? Two faced, that is how.

This is what I would do, then realign the conferences.

Boot all who have a stadium which holds less than 50,000 fans. This would leave 62 teams in the FBS. You cannot play Big Boy football if you can’t get fifty thou in your stadium. Take a look at the teams who have been in the BCSCG since it was created. Heck, even Oregon has a 54,000 seat stadium, and everyone else has had over 65,000 seats in their home field.
I like the idea of putting in criteria like the one you've mentioned to reduce the teams eligible to play for BCSNC. As it stands now there's simply too many teams.
 

GCtidefan

1st Team
Sep 23, 2010
383
94
52
Adger, AL
I agree with reducing the number of FBS teams and increasing the scholly limits. I was never a fan of letting the AP decide the national champion especially after the 1966 debacle, but if the FBS were to move to a playoff system, most teams would begin padding their regular season with cupcakes to avoid fatigue and injury until the "playoff season" began. This would leave us with many boring Saturdays until the playoffs began IMO. I believe the BCS needs the SoS in the calculation, but the SoS doesn't need to be arbitrary or decided by the media (again see 1966). Use solid numbers such as yards gained/allowed, red zone TD versus FG percent, historical win percentage, etc. I just don't want to see us go back to the days where a certain conference or a certain team is always highly regarded in the polls even when their on field performance is visibly sub par.
 

BamaSully

1st Team
Oct 13, 1999
649
171
162
Jackson, TN
Krazy3 thanks for writing this. I haven't finished yet, but I came to this quote and I wanted to highlight it....

"If one looks at the regular season results, the BCS stands alone in demanding it's champion play like a champion for an entire season."

That says it all. Thanks again.

-Sully
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
38,374
33,524
287
55
This opening argument is rife with factual errors and appeals to carefully selected evidence. It thoroughly ignores Penn State's unbeaten seasons in 1968-69-73-94, and treats all national title claims as legitimate when they are not. Penn State did not win anything resembling a REAL title in 1994, so the claim of unbeatens is in error. Also, the claim that the BCS has always given us a champ ranked 1 or 2 is laughable on it's face since that game matches up 1 vs 2. Not near a big computer so may or may not respond in length. Too many D1 teams is agreed. Most of the rest of the argument is special pleading or twisted history (yes there was one Rose Bowl in 1902, but it wasn't annual until many years later. Baseball had champions on the field in 1876 and the Workd Series in 1903). Once again BAD arguments have no place at the table.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
38,374
33,524
287
55
Having said all of that you are more than right on a few points. First, there are WAAAAAY too many teams in D1. We could reduce to at least 96 and set in motion an eight-team playoff with eight 12-team conferences, says the snide man. Just kidding a little at the end of that but we are in total agreement regarding teams.

Second - the only way to keep players in the big-time is to increase scollys so I agree here too though probably not back to 105.
 

uaintn

All-American
Aug 2, 2000
2,961
329
202
franklin, tennessee, usa
Agree that there are way too many teams playing at the "top" level. And the NZAA trend is actually to add more, not reduce it. I hope it will be the impetus for the big schools to finally go their own way without the NZAA, like the CFA sort of almost did. When there was a lot of talk this time last year about consolidation and "super conferences" I thought things might go that way. Take 6 or 7 conferences with 12 teams each and go.

And attendance is an excellent dividing line. If you can't average 25-30 thousand fans at your home games, you aren't serious about football. This is how the NHL does its profit sharing. Averaging 10,000 fans for major college football is oxymoronic. I will bet there are high schools in Texas that do that.

I don't agree with everything in the original post, but the theme is excellent and the discussion is not only valid, but long overdue. Wish ESPN had the guts to make it a crusade like they do some other, much less important issues.
 

Let's Roll Tide

1st Team
Sep 29, 2003
856
1
0
Denver, CO
I agree with reducing the number of FBS teams and increasing the scholly limits. I was never a fan of letting the AP decide the national champion especially after the 1966 debacle, but if the FBS were to move to a playoff system, most teams would begin padding their regular season with cupcakes to avoid fatigue and injury until the "playoff season" began. This would leave us with many boring Saturdays until the playoffs began IMO. I believe the BCS needs the SoS in the calculation, but the SoS doesn't need to be arbitrary or decided by the media (again see 1966). Use solid numbers such as yards gained/allowed, red zone TD versus FG percent, historical win percentage, etc. I just don't want to see us go back to the days where a certain conference or a certain team is always highly regarded in the polls even when their on field performance is visibly sub par.
Agree! Reinstitute SoS rankings within the BCS polls and I believe a lot of the Boises of the nation will fall out of the polls or at least out of the Top 15-20. Yeah, they will whine but it is their rightful place and if they want to improve, they will just need to become like Florida State back in the 70s. I think this to would be an easy first step and then we could make more changes as needed...
 

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
10,966
5,480
187
45
kraizy.art
The "haves" of the conferences on the outside looking in would be wise in discussing starting their own conference that petitions for inclusion in the BCS who I think would listen. If they did so, that would get you to the 100 teams more or less that you mention that are legitimately able to sustain the new demands of college football.

I dont think just because of the conference they are in that we should exclude teams like Air Force, Houston, Memphis, Fresno State, Nevada, SMU, BSU (I guess), etc. BCS 6 should formulate the new rules of the new association whereby they would extend invitation of one of the aforementioned teams (or others) - "If you want in here are the stipulations and you guys need to organize your own conference."
I'd like to just raise the bar. If you went with the SEC proposal of stipends of $300 per game and made a modest scholarship increase back to 90, I'm think this would resolve things without any need for further intervention. Then again there's Title IX and the fact that schools would have to agree to the scholarship increase. So I suppose they could just force the breakaway by resisting change.

I think the top 4 are solid, you have 48 teams with championship games. But, the Big 12 and Big East have room. I'm not against the inclusion of the MWC either, so let's say they all expanded to 12 teams, you'd have 84 teams. If you coordinated that with the independents making their own mini-conference or something (say 6 teams) then you'd be at 90 which is a healthy number. I'm not too worried about that though I think it would work itself out but I'm certainly not saying that Air Force or BSU doesn't belong in the FBS, but that the bar needs to be raised.

If you did end up with a breakaway I also think there's a perfect resolution going forward. Inclusion could require a conference extending a membership offer. I think that would be pretty good protection.

That says it all. Thanks again.

-Sully
You're welcome. :)
This opening argument is rife with factual errors and appeals to carefully selected evidence. It thoroughly ignores Penn State's unbeaten seasons in 1968-69-73-94, and treats all national title claims as legitimate when they are not. Penn State did not win anything resembling a REAL title in 1994, so the claim of unbeatens is in error. Also, the claim that the BCS has always given us a champ ranked 1 or 2 is laughable on it's face since that game matches up 1 vs 2. Not near a big computer so may or may not respond in length. Too many D1 teams is agreed. Most of the rest of the argument is special pleading or twisted history (yes there was one Rose Bowl in 1902, but it wasn't annual until many years later. Baseball had champions on the field in 1876 and the Workd Series in 1903). Once again BAD arguments have no place at the table.
Ok, first off to be clear I did omit things. There's no way to include every single professional sport for comparative purposes without turning my book into a set of encyclopedias. Having said that, I am not aware of a single factual error in what I said and if you find one I will correct it.

1:penn State was named national champion by a lengthy list of selectors in 1994: CCR, DeS, ERS, MGR, NCF, NYT, R(FACT), SR
That was the only one which occurs within a window I specified. I never made any attempt to validate the selectors' selections, I just used them as proof that some teams has no claim whatsoever.
2: Not exactly, I used the AP which has withdrawn from the BCS. It's entirely possible that a champion not be #1 or #2 in the AP. Having said that, that was my point. The BCS has to put forth a championship worthy team.
3: The second Rose Bowl was 1916, I originally was going to use that date (which predates the NFL, NBA, etc...) but the fact of the matter is the first bowl game was in 1902 and that's pertinent information.
4: I made no reference or comparisons to baseball at all. Nor did I compare it to MLS which was founded in 1993. The argument was not that college football pre-dated everything, but that the selectors and bowls pre-dated a lot of things which are used as arguments for why they should have a playoff. I never said college football beat all pro sports or the like. My point of emphasis was that college football had their system in place long before many other sports.

To be honest I think you both embellished what I said and misunderstood some things. Your retort seems to have used more selective data than I though so I do take exception to you calling what I said a "bad argument".
 

RJ YellowHammer

Hall of Fame
Sep 1, 2009
7,117
32
67
Memphis, Tn
I completely agree about thinning the ranks of 1-A, FBS, or whatever you want to call it. The scholarship restrictions and other equality measures simply make it easier for schools that don't belong to play at a level they shouldn't be competing at. A lot of the problems with big time college football would go away if 20 or so schools did likewise.
 
Last edited:

GreatDanish

Hall of Fame
Nov 22, 2005
6,079
0
0
TN
Krazy, I just want to give you kudos on this thread/post. By the way, if everyone agreed with everything, it wouldn't be much of a thread.
 

TideFan in AU

Hall of Fame
Having said all of that you are more than right on a few points. First, there are WAAAAAY too many teams in D1. We could reduce to at least 96 and set in motion an eight-team playoff with eight 12-team conferences, says the snide man. Just kidding a little at the end of that but we are in total agreement regarding teams.

Second - the only way to keep players in the big-time is to increase scollys so I agree here too though probably not back to 105.
Great idea! That way a 4-loss Big East or Mountain WAC Champ can play for the NC over a 1 loss SEC team! What was that about "bad" arguments? ;)
 

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
10,966
5,480
187
45
kraizy.art
Great idea! That way a 4-loss Big East or Mountain WAC Champ can play for the NC over a 1 loss SEC team! What was that about "bad" arguments? ;)
I am actually agreeable to using conference championship games as a +1 of sorts, but I doubt we'd ever meet my requirements.

First off, the #1 reason you can't have this as a sole playoff criteria is because it can leave the #2 team out. This happened in the NCAA basketball tournament and they changed the criteria later on to avoid this. While it's not so bad to have the idea of a conference champ #1 vs. a conference champ #3 for a championship game, it is a bad idea if you start saying you're going to put in the 9th ranked team (or lower) but exclude the #2 ranked team.

Generally speaking, I understand the notion of not letting a team lose one game then play for a championship in the next one. OU did this and people went nuts. The problem was SoS, OU played more games (with more difficulty) then USC, so logically speaking OU with 1 loss still had proven more than USC with 1 loss. However, one of the major issues there was no Pac-10 championship game (and you see this theme in every controversial year).

If you whittled things down to 8 or less conferences (depending on size it could be as few as 4), AND every single conference had a championship game I would be open to the notion of using that as an elimination game. However, I would then want it to go back to BCS criteria. The top two teams to win conference championship games play for the championship. This might be a bit redundant, but by setting the criteria you'd basically be forcing everyone into doing this.
 

New Posts

Latest threads