The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse I

[Its On A Slab]

My father, in particular, grew up anti-doctor, the whole family Dad. You've probably heard the mantra:

"Doctors get you hooked on medicines so you'll come back and also so they can get rich owning stocks in Big Pharma; they'll tell you something is wrong when nothing is wrong and bleed all the money out of your bank account. Then, when they know you're broke and not coming back, they'll suddenly 'cure' you."

But there was another issue - that was actually caused by what I just stated above.

There were two women, one in what was eventually the community where my Dad would grow up (and where his Dad did during this time) and another up the road closer to St. Louis. One, in particular (Bertha Gifford), posed as a nurse and poisoned to death at least 17 people. The other (Emma Hepperman) operated out of his own town.

My grandfather once - don't know the reason, my Mom told me the story -had to go to the doctor's office for something one time and didn't want to go "behind the curtain" to be seen, telling my mother, "That's where they take them when they're gonna kill them."

Yes, it was insane - but given the context I just provided, not quite as insane as it sounds, either.

I have also been confronted with those who condemn modern medical science. Especially the ones who put their faith in junk science. People that believe that making your blood more alkaline will cure cancer. Gerson Therapy. Massive doses of IV Vitamin C.

People who have a malignant cancer want to find a quick fix, and there really isn't one (yet). To believe that doctors don't want them to get well is ludicrous.

 

[crimsonaudio]

People who have a malignant cancer want to find a quick fix, and there really isn't one (yet). To believe that doctors don't want them to get well is ludicrous.

It's weird seeing conspiracy theorists claim that 'big pharma has had the cure for cancer for years but they want you to stay sick' - ignoring the fact that there are well over a hundred different types of cancer, any company that discovered the cure would instantly be the wealthiest company on the planet, overnight.

But illogical people are by nature illogical.

 

[Its On A Slab]

It's weird seeing conspiracy theorists claim that 'big pharma has had the cure for cancer for years but they want you to stay sick' - ignoring the fact that there are well over a hundred different types of cancer, any company that discovered the cure would instantly be the wealthiest company on the planet, overnight.

But illogical people are by nature illogical.

I have a good friend who is a breast cancer survivor. Went thru lumpectomy, radiation and is on a maintenance drug that prevents estrogen from rising (cancer was fed by estrogen).

She was convinced that this juice therapy/coffee enema clinic in Puerto Rico was the answer to her good health. That, and the whole alkaline scam. I had many heated discussions with her about how all of it was ********. She pointed me to this dubious series on YouTube called "The TRUTH About Cancer".....it was full of the same stuff, vitamin therapy, Gerson, coffe enemas......and a heavy dose of "The traditional medical establishment is LYING to you."

I have another friend who lost his sister (also a friend) to metastatic breast cancer several years ago. We both have a Jones for alternative medicine, so he told me once that people in those situations are desperate and looking for the quick fix that will cure them. When there really isn't one at the moment.

I accompanied my friend (who had breast cancer) to a quack clinic in Omaha. Bit my tongue while the Dr ( a board cerrtified MD) crapped all over modern medicine. And looking out and seeing all those gullible people with IV's in their arm with Vitamin C. The object was to fill up on Vitamin C until you throw up.

 

[crimsonaudio]

 

[Crimson1967]

I have taken up the quest to read the entire Bible in 2025. It is on an app where a guy is reading and I follow along. Then there is a short video at the end where a woman comes on and talks about what we read.

I’m three months in and just started the book of Judges. I’m currently caught up but I have fallen a few days behind a few times. Each day consists of 2-3 chapters per day. It’s mostly in order but we stopped in the middle of Genesis to read Job and we’ve read a couple of Psalms as well.

A few observations.

There is a lot of drudgery in the early books. Long lists of names, tribes, and family trees that don’t contribute to the story. I’m glad I have a narrator because I couldn’t get through this reading it myself.

A lot of violent death as well. People are struck down dead and Israel is always going to war and killing entire nations and enslaving people.

Not a huge fan of the woman at the end. A little annoying. Not a holier than thou but the type of Christian I wouldn’t want to be stuck in an elevator with.

Anyway, it has been interesting and I hope to keep it up. I knew the OT wouldn’t be a fun read and the NT doesn’t start until October 1 and the gospels run into the middle of November. Then the last four days of the year are devoted to reading Revelation.

Anyone else gone through the Bible in a plan like that?

 

[crimsonaudio]

Anyone else gone through the Bible in a plan like that?

Kudos!

I've done this several times, this year I'm following a chronological plan. Sadly, I think most Christians never fully read the very book that informs their beliefs.

 

[Crimson1967]

Kudos!

I've done this several times, this year I'm following a chronological plan. Sadly, I think most Christians never fully read the very book that informs their beliefs.

This is chronological so I guess that’s why we had Job out of order. One of the psalms we read was written by Moses. Never knew he wrote a psalm. The gospel readings are just a patchwork of chapters every day. We get through it all but my OCD mind can’t handle it being out of order. LOL.

So how did you handle seeing all the warfare and killing on God’s behalf? It’s a little troubling to me, to be honest.

 

[crimsonaudio]

So how did you handle seeing all the warfare and killing on God’s behalf? It’s a little troubling to me, to be honest.

I figured out long ago that our minds don't work like God's, so things like that, the flood, etc., will never fully make sense to me. There are theological discussions as to the 'why' aspect of God's OT commands, but without an explanation, they're just educated guesses.

WRT wiping our entire peoples, we're told God instructed this "that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)

Do I understand why it had to be this way? No, but we humans aren't as smart as we like to think we are.

 

[Crimson1967]

The flood I have always just seen as a complete reboot into creation 2.0. If someone had wanted to they could have gotten on the ark. It’s also a story I have heard as a child so I have never overthought it too much.

But right now I am in a period where Israel moves into the promised land and wipe out thousands of people. Many of them were probably just minding their own business and got killed. Was everyone worshipping Baal all the time and deserved death.

Just comes into conflict with what I have always thought of as a loving God. I hope He forgives me for that.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Just comes into conflict with what I have always thought of as a loving God. I hope He forgives me for that.

It's a much deeper discussion than can be had via social media, but He is a loving God. We cannot forget that he's also just and cannot tolerate sin.

We've all got to hope God forgives us of a lot of things. Thankfully, He has promised that forgiveness to us.

 

[Padreruf]

It's a much deeper discussion than can be had via social media, but He is a loving God. We cannot forget that he's also just and cannot tolerate sin.

We've all got to hope God forgives us of a lot of things. Thankfully, He has promised that forgiveness to us.

You all are diving into the problem of theodicy -- how a good God can allow or endorse evil? Good luck...this has tripped up many a "former" Christian. We engage in all manner of theological gymnastics in order to maintain our faith. Personally, I have found no answer that is fully acceptable. I just acknowledge the limits to my understanding. I came to that conclusion after decades of wrestling with actions attributed to God.

 

[crimsonaudio]

You all are diving into the problem of theodicy -- how a good God can allow or endorse evil? Good luck...this has tripped up many a "former" Christian. We engage in all manner of theological gymnastics in order to maintain our faith. Personally, I have found no answer that is fully acceptable. I just acknowledge the limits to my understanding. I came to that conclusion after decades of wrestling with actions attributed to God.

This is 100% where I am (and tried to explain above). Unsurprisingly, you explained it better than I.

It's actually pretty arrogant of us to think that we can comprehend the reasoning of the Creator of the universe.

 

[Crimson1967]

Thanks. I have been vaguely aware of what went on in the OT but never actually read any of it until now. I think I will do it again next year (perhaps find another plan) and hopefully get a better understanding of it.

But you are both right in that nobody will ever truly understand God. And the side wing of an internet message board designed to talk football probably isn’t the ideal place to find it.

I have found myself wanting a deeper understanding since my wife died in October. We have always been Christian and believers but haven’t attended church regularly in a number of years because of life. But I have been just about every week since. I have found the congregation a very warm and welcoming group even though we weren’t regular attendees. I even started going to a Sunday School class. I’m the youngest in there by about 15 years (I’m 57) but it’s a great group.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

You all are diving into the problem of theodicy -- how a good God can allow or endorse evil? Good luck...this has tripped up many a "former" Christian. We engage in all manner of theological gymnastics in order to maintain our faith. Personally, I have found no answer that is fully acceptable. I just acknowledge the limits to my understanding. I came to that conclusion after decades of wrestling with actions attributed to God.

St. Thomas Aquinas attempted to tackle this question. One of the strongest arguments you'll ever hear from the atheists can me summarized thusly: "If God is so good and so powerful, why does he allow bad things to happen?" When I hear this, my answer is simple: "Who are you to decide what is good and what is bad?" (Essentially the same answer God gave Job, but boiled down to a singular question.)

Aquinas took a hard look at this. Basically, it comes down to imagining you're on the African plains and you see a hungry lion who hasn't eaten in a week and he crosses paths with a gimpy antelope. The outcome is inevitable and if the lion could think like a human, how might he react? I would imagine it would sound like, "Thank you God, for hearing my prayer!" Now if you're the antelope, your reaction is going to be decidedly different and will probably sound like, "Why, oh God, are you allowing this evil to befall me?"

Now this is one event, but what we have here are two radically different perspectives. And if you could "speak lion" or "speak antelope" you could probably attempt to explain to them concepts like homeostasis or sing the Lion King song, Circle of Life. The obvious problem here is that even if you could communicate these ideas, they are still animals and thus incapable of understanding. The gulf of consciousness between animal and man is simply too wide.

How wide then, is the gulf of consciousness between man and a God who has the power to create the universe at his fingertips? Who has the wisdom to create a divine plan that involves every single person since the dawn of time and until the end of days? Pretty wide, I'd say. The fact is that we don't understand God's will or His plan and this is where faith enters the equation. Christianity is entirely predicated on faith; without it, Christianity simply wouldn't exist.

Sure, we all have questions and the pursuit of answers can lead us to a place where our faith is strengthened. However, if all we do is consider the question and then decide that the whole thing is nonsense without even looking for an answer, obviously we will fall away. I've been pursing a LOT of answers lately because I will be received into the church soon and I had a LOT of questions. Interestingly enough, my faith has only been strengthened by my pursuit of answers.

Anyway, sorry for the length and double-sorry for the rushed feel of this post. I have to get to work, but I wanted to contribute something here. I started this thread in hopes of discussions like this.

 

[stlimprov]

It’s mostly in order but we stopped in the middle of Genesis to read Job and we’ve read a couple of Psalms as well.

FWIW there is scholarly opinion that the story of Job would have taken place somewhere in the middle of Genesis...so that's not just a random choice.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Thanks. I have been vaguely aware of what went on in the OT but never actually read any of it until now. I think I will do it again next year (perhaps find another plan) and hopefully get a better understanding of it.

But you are both right in that nobody will ever truly understand God. And the side wing of an internet message board designed to talk football probably isn’t the ideal place to find it.

I have found myself wanting a deeper understanding since my wife died in October. We have always been Christian and believers but haven’t attended church regularly in a number of years because of life. But I have been just about every week since. I have found the congregation a very warm and welcoming group even though we weren’t regular attendees. I even started going to a Sunday School class. I’m the youngest in there by about 15 years (I’m 57) but it’s a great group.

I'm glad to hear you're taking a different approach than I did when my first wife passed back in 2012. For reasons I can't even begin to explain, I didn't want comfort at the time. Not from friends, not from family and certainly not from God. I was angry, hurt and confused. As a result, I made a LOT of mistakes after she was gone. Maybe I was acting out. I dunno, maybe I'm just stupid. In any case, I regret how I handled it now.

Keep searching for answers, friend. (See my post above.) They are there and while the answers themselves are good, your pursuit of them could be even more educational than the answers themselves.

 

[Crimson1967]

FWIW there is scholarly opinion that the story of Job would have taken place somewhere in the middle of Genesis...so that's not just a random choice.

The host of the videos mentioned that in passing but I was unaware of it previously. Learning little bits of Biblical trivia like that are interesting to me.

When we start a new book there is a short video where a guy gives a synopsis of the book. For Judges I was surprised to learn that a judge was a military leader and not a person making legal decisions. Just read the story of Gideon, the namesake of the hotel Bible people.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I figured out long ago that our minds don't work like God's, so things like that, the flood, etc., will never fully make sense to me. There are theological discussions as to the 'why' aspect of God's OT commands, but without an explanation, they're just educated guesses.

WRT wiping our entire peoples, we're told God instructed this "that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)

Do I understand why it had to be this way? No, but we humans aren't as smart as we like to think we are.

And we humans aren't as innocent as we like to think we are. I love your comment, "we don't see things the way God does". That is so, so true and we apply "what we would do" to things God decides to do and when they don't line up, we are troubled with God but never troubled with what we would have done that was different from God. It's the height of arrogance and pride.

 

[Padreruf]

St. Thomas Aquinas attempted to tackle this question. One of the strongest arguments you'll ever hear from the atheists can me summarized thusly: "If God is so good and so powerful, why does he allow bad things to happen?" When I hear this, my answer is simple: "Who are you to decide what is good and what is bad?" (Essentially the same answer God gave Job, but boiled down to a singular question.)

Aquinas took a hard look at this. Basically, it comes down to imagining you're on the African plains and you see a hungry lion who hasn't eaten in a week and he crosses paths with a gimpy antelope. The outcome is inevitable and if the lion could think like a human, how might he react? I would imagine it would sound like, "Thank you God, for hearing my prayer!" Now if you're the antelope, your reaction is going to be decidedly different and will probably sound like, "Why, oh God, are you allowing this evil to befall me?"

Now this is one event, but what we have here are two radically different perspectives. And if you could "speak lion" or "speak antelope" you could probably attempt to explain to them concepts like homeostasis or sing the Lion King song, Circle of Life. The obvious problem here is that even if you could communicate these ideas, they are still animals and thus incapable of understanding. The gulf of consciousness between animal and man is simply too wide.

How wide then, is the gulf of consciousness between man and a God who has the power to create the universe at his fingertips? Who has the wisdom to create a divine plan that involves every single person since the dawn of time and until the end of days? Pretty wide, I'd say. The fact is that we don't understand God's will or His plan and this is where faith enters the equation. Christianity is entirely predicated on faith; without it, Christianity simply wouldn't exist.

Sure, we all have questions and the pursuit of answers can lead us to a place where our faith is strengthened. However, if all we do is consider the question and then decide that the whole thing is nonsense without even looking for an answer, obviously we will fall away. I've been pursing a LOT of answers lately because I will be received into the church soon and I had a LOT of questions. Interestingly enough, my faith has only been strengthened by my pursuit of answers.

Anyway, sorry for the length and double-sorry for the rushed feel of this post. I have to get to work, but I wanted to contribute something here. I started this thread in hopes of discussions like this.

Good for you...an active, seeking faith always beats a dead, blind acceptance or rejection. Anselm defined faith as "belief seeking understanding..." I'm still on that path. "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief."

 

[Padreruf]

Here's a quote that has carried me for decades:

“Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.”

Rainer Maria Rilke