The Decline of the Middle Class Discussion

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
42,199
41,181
287
56
Maybe this will go nowhere, which is fine, but UAH (and some others) brought up a good point that I think is worthy of serious discussion, and it really (technically) doesn't belong in the Trump War thread. So I'll share a few of the posts here, and maybe we can continue. (Yes, I'll get to mine later maybe).

To many of us it is obvious that the US has been in a long term decline at least from Vietnam onward. The reason a Trump could be elected in the first place is the wide spread decline in the standard of living of the working class. Now we have accelerated that decline to include much of the middle class. To the degree that many well educated young people, including my own, question bringing children into this world. It is very sad to see it come to this.

I'm honestly not trying to pick apart your point here - and believe me, it's a popular belief or talking point or even (if you will) truth, but I'm curious as to what is meant by this. I know (for example) I heard it in church in the 1980s (especially), and it's also a claim of groups like the Tea Party AND Occupy Wall Street. But I'm not sure I agree with it, depending on what is meant by it. I'll even be intellectually honest about it and say I said it for years, but I'm just not convinced any longer that there's anything substantive to actually back it up. I wonder - and I'm talking to myself as much as anyone at this point - if it's more nostalgia than reality.




But I'm not sure why people actually think this, either. I know we can all put up a chart, I guess, to prove any point we want, but I don't think there's any comparison in living standards between 1975 and today that would suggest any of us want to go back to that. Yes, healthcare and college are more expensive - but on the whole (barring bumps like the Covid money print inflation period), everything else is less.

To begin with - not one of us had a $1200 I phone in 1975, which is pretty standard for anyone over about the age of 11 nowadays. Plus, the same chart that shows "middle class peaked in 1971" also shows its because more have moved UP and there are fewer in the bottom, but nobody ever wants to talk about that one.


I think Donald Trump got elected due to the simple fact America has done SO WELL that we have ceased (if we ever did) to take our Presidential elections (and others, too) SERIOUSLY. Honestly, who in their right minds can think with any rational thought, "You know, I think the born to a rich guy casino owner paper billionaire can relate to my struggles to meet a paycheck more than anyone else"?

Trump is the obvious end result of the modern primary system that closes off 80% of the electorate from choosing the nominees, voter anger at both parties (he wasn't seen at first as an actual Republican), and running against the one nominee with almost as much baggage as he had - enough anyway to see it as "they're both pompous New York-based elitists so".....



Again, I don't know. I, too, have a child and definitely am worried about his future or lack thereof.

But the part I'm not certain about is that this is any different than previously - except for the fact we're all interconnected.

I apologize if this comes off as preachy, I think we've interacted enough you know that's not my intent. But I'm curious as to what is meant.

That America has a larger - and yes, unsustainable deficit we must address - is agreed.

But why that is - largely - is because of taking care of more people who live longer, too. The right likes to make foreign aid and alleged benefits paid to illegals the bogeyman, but that's a mere drop in the bucket. The left likes to target the defense budget, but it still has nothing on entitlement programs, which upsets people when you use the word entitlement. And we could cut the defense budget to zero tomorrow - and we'd still have an insane amount of deficit and continuing debt.

We have more people living longer than ever before with better access to healthcare along with less poverty; yes, there's been a slight dip in life expectancy due to the run through from Covid. We have more air conditioning, ability to travel, access to music/arts/etc, and reasons to feel happy and blessed.


(Note: one of the things that has to be admitted happened is that prior to 1971, we are talking ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY of a white, male middle class. And what did happen was the spreading out of benefits to (for example) blacks and women, who became shareholders in the "rags to comfort not riches" aspect of the American Dream.

I'm not saying we have no problems. In fact, I'm not even disagreeing with you, I'm just curious because I hear it a lot.

Your comments are always spot on, and I appreciate that you can present the conservative argument so well and sensibly.

Little time to respond as I have to get to the office, but talking to my kids and their generation's perspective and just reading broadly... I don't think it is so much that we've declined horribly, but the rest of the world has caught up some, and it seems like we have been hiking a rocky trail and may fall off the cliff if we aren't very careful... And I just don't see the wisdom of our political leaders being enough to carry us through, particularly with the current admin's grift and incompetence.

Inflation, spiraling debt, increasing authoritarianism, billionaires who think they should be royalty, the Feds ceding multiple large industries to China, damage to our international rep... Lots going on right now. And a job market that is tougher than appreciated with spiraling housing costs. Plenty of good stuff, but we will have tough choices ahead as we always do.


As a reminder to everyone, my mind is hardly made up on this subject. Indeed - as I've stated - I MYSELF HAVE SAID SUCH THINGS, so nobody should think this is me calling out anyone or playing self-appointed corrector. It may be a way to bring out further points, both good and bad, because it may be a case of depending upon which data one culls, it determines the outcome.
 
Btw, I was minding my own bidness watching the Braves lose last night and came across this very link posted yesterday along the same lines. Haven't read the whole thing but the comments as always are glorious on the FB page.


 
I think most people have it wrong when they try to pin Trump getting elected on anything other than Obama denigrating blue collar white people for eight years and the capitulation of our government to LGBTQ minorities under Biden; but it all starts with Obama. If Hillary had been elected, we don't get Trump.

To tie it back in, the decline of the middle class may, or may not, be a real thing; but, for those of us squarely in it, life is really, really hard right now.
 
  • Emphasis!
Reactions: CrimsonJazz
*Thread completely derails in an hour and ten minutes*

Welp, that certainly didn't take long.

Okay, so back on topic. I think part of the problem is that regardless of whether or not our government is chipping away at the middle class, the perception that this is happening continues to persist. As long as that remains true, there will still be a ton of animosity by the middle class and not just for our "leaders." Much of the criticism of the rich is well-deserved and sadly, the same can be said of the lower class as well. George Carlin once pointed out that the poor are kept poor to keep us middle-class folks in line. I don't think he's wrong, either.
 
This chart is from the article Selma posted. I have a real problem with the income ranges, specifically with the "upper middle class". I'll take the closest column to my personal household. I have seven people in my family (counting my wife and I) and our income is right around the $172,000-175,000 range of the "Five People" column. Even with five people, a family with a household income of $172K IS NOT in the same economic class as a household making three times the money with the same amount of people in the household. A five person household with a combined income of $172,000 IS NOT upper middle class if we're also considering a household of five who makes $516,000 upper middle class. They are in two completely different income classes. I have friends whose household income is $500K, and have five kids just like my wife and I, and trust me, my purchasing power is NOWHERE NEAR what theirs is. There's NO WAY these income ranges are in the same class in the real world.




1775572051832.png
 
  • Thank You
  • Like
Reactions: 92tide and UAH
Btw, I was minding my own bidness watching the Braves lose last night and came across this very link posted yesterday along the same lines. Haven't read the whole thing but the comments as always are glorious on the FB page.


Purchasing-Power-of-the-U.S.-Dollar-Over-Time.jpg
One can only guess what a US dollar will purchase in 2026. No doubt incomes in the US have increased substantially but obviously the data has to be indexed in order to compare income levels over practically any timespan.
 
I have had friends move for that reason. In some cases, complexes have had 3-4 owners in 18 months or so, with a rent hike accompanying each change. Most of the "owners" are offshore...
There may be reasons it's not practical or even possible, but I'm all for a law requiring all US residential property to be owned by US residents.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 92tide
There may be reasons it's not practical or even possible, but I'm all for a law requiring all US residential property to be owned by US residents.
It could be done at the federal level. It would cut off a source of capital for residential housing. What would be nice would be to have a sane president, so discretion could be given the executive to veto some projects. The present guy, from all the available evidence, would simply use such a power to enrich himself and his family. Such a power could also be used to prevent the Chinese government from buying up large tract adjacent to our military bases. Most of these acquisitions are made through a thick curtain of LLCs. However, it doesn't have to be non-US residents. Huntsville Utilities cut off water to one complex in Madison because the owners weren't paying the utility bills. Out of state owners. Growth has its problems and there a lot of us old residents who wouldn't mind seeing a pause.

I didn't mean to run so long. However, I have to describe one more SNAFU with out of state owners. The city council voted to allow a waiver of our slope building regulations to allow a project of postage stamp (patio home) development about 2/3 of the way up Bankhead Parkway. The widespread belief is that the process was, at the very least, "influenced." The developer was from Colorado and his selling point was experience building in mountains. Well, the mountains in CO are largely granite. Monte Sano consists of a sandstone cap, but the slopes are crumbling karst (limestone). The developer proposed to remove the "overburden" down to bedrock. Well, "bedrock" is straight down over a thousand feet. The first "hundred-year" flood which came along, the city had to issue a stop work order, as a good portion of the excavated dirt had ended up in the subdivision immediately downhill. Now, it's just an ugly scar on the mountain. If you want to look at it, Google "The Summit" at Huntsville, Alabama...
 
  • Thank You
Reactions: 92tide and UAH
The Summit gets talked about often in the local mountain biking community. Everyone wants to know who got paid...
Most of us know. We just don't want to get sued. Of course, the mayor, and full disclosure, he's a close friend, came out of a development background (after food), so any building looks good to him. About twenty years ago, he and I were playing at Valley Hill on the 4th of July and it was 100F. We almost had the course to ourselves. I told him he ought to run for mayor. He said he was through with politics forever. Now, he appears to be permanent until he dies or decides to quit. Nobody even ran against him the last time...
 
OK, I need someone to tell me here if I'm wrong in my understanding.
92tide doesn't count, he thinks I'm wrong anyway.

Is not A LOT of the issue with housing (rentals anyway):
- the fact that due to the pandemic landlords etc didn't get paid for like 24-30 months (however long it was)
- yet those who had to pay to the next person up the chain DID have to continue to pay those notes, etc
- and consequently, a lot of the jacked up rent prices is (in essence) "making up" for the lost time?
- plus the folks who were not paying rent or daycare or student loans but WERE getting paid....in essence, flooded the market with money, hence, inflation?

Am I correct?
Am I partially correct?

Sincere question here.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 92tide
This chart is from the article Selma posted. I have a real problem with the income ranges, specifically with the "upper middle class". I'll take the closest column to my personal household. I have seven people in my family (counting my wife and I) and our income is right around the $172,000-175,000 range of the "Five People" column. Even with five people, a family with a household income of $172K IS NOT in the same economic class as a household making three times the money with the same amount of people in the household. A five person household with a combined income of $172,000 IS NOT upper middle class if we're also considering a household of five who makes $516,000 upper middle class. They are in two completely different income classes. I have friends whose household income is $500K, and have five kids just like my wife and I, and trust me, my purchasing power is NOWHERE NEAR what theirs is. There's NO WAY these income ranges are in the same class in the real world.




View attachment 56638
Me and mine are well in the 2 person upper middle class, and we are struggling. Maybe not to the point we don’t know where are next meal is coming from, but to the point our savings isn’t what it use to be, barely making monthly payments and maintaining our lifestyle. those income ranges are not accurate, everyone I know makes over $100k a year, young and old.
 
Advertisement

Trending content

Advertisement