The Republican War on Public Schools (vouchers, religion, graft, testing, etc.)

[Huckleberry]

Would you include synagogues and mosques along with any schools associated with those faiths as well?

Can you define theological grooming for me?

I absolutely would include synagogues and mosques as well as any of the associated schools.

To avoid unnecessary confusion, I should have chosen a less inflammatory word than grooming. Let's call it religious indoctrination instead.

 

[Huckleberry]

I have far more of an issue of vouchers going to homeschools and charter schools than to private schools. Most private schools aren’t the boogeyman indoctrination plants that the left makes them out to be.

I'm equally opposed to vouchers being used for homeschools (and many charter schools too, depending on the standards and other requirements set by the state/district). And while secular private schools might not be as much of a issue when it comes to indoctrination, the conservative/evangelical private religious schools in the states really pushing the voucher programs are a legitimate concern.

In any case, public money should not be used for private education.

 

[AWRTR]

I absolutely would include synagogues and mosques as well as any of the associated schools.

To avoid unnecessary confusion, I should have chosen a less inflammatory word than grooming. Let's call it religious indoctrination instead.

So parents don’t have the right to pass on their faith, values, and world view to their kids and have say so over their education even if they pay for it?

 

[Bodhisattva]

I agree. Frankly, not one penny of taxpayer money should ever go to any religious school/church, no matter the rationale. The hatred and bigotry common in many of these organizations (not to mention the theological grooming) should not be encouraged or funded by the government.

Who funds the government?

 

[Bodhisattva]

In any case, public money should not be used for private education.

If the private education is far better than what the government schools offer, shouldn't you be all for what's better for the kids?

 

[AWRTR]

If the private education is far better than what the government schools offer, shouldn't you be all for what's better for the kids?

No there is an obvious aversion to any type of religious based education and the only teaching should be government approved. Its working great in places like Baltimore.

 

[Huckleberry]

So parents don’t have the right to pass on their faith, values, and world view to their kids and have say so over their education even if they pay for it?

Certainly they have that right. I never said or implied otherwise.

 

[Huckleberry]

No there is an obvious aversion to any type of religious based education and the only teaching should be government approved. Its working great in places like Baltimore.

While I'm not a fan of religious-based education, I never said that the only teaching should be government approved. Nice try though.

 

[Huckleberry]

Who funds the government?

Do you think the government should promote religion?

 

[Huckleberry]

If the private education is far better than what the government schools offer, shouldn't you be all for what's better for the kids?

In your hypothetical, when it comes to funding, I'd be in favor of using the taxpayer money to improve the public schools.

 

[Jon]

I'm equally opposed to vouchers being used for homeschools (and many charter schools too, depending on the standards and other requirements set by the state/district). And while secular private schools might not be as much of a issue when it comes to indoctrination, the conservative/evangelical private religious schools in the states really pushing the voucher programs are a legitimate concern.

In any case, public money should not be used for private education.

100% agree and my kids were homeschooled

 

[Jon]

If the private education is far better than what the government schools offer, shouldn't you be all for what's better for the kids?

if it were possible absolutely we should 100% be striving for all kids to get the best education possible. Private, public, whatever.

But, you also know well that vouchers don't do that. They provide a way for the upper middle to wealthy to get a discount on a great private education while stripping resources from elsewhere. You know this of course but have either deluded yourself or just don't care.

My opinion the purpose of public education is to rise up the entire populace. Vouchers are the worst way to do this. Great for the kids who can who can advantage of course but very much at the expense of those that can't.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Do you think the government should promote religion?

Parents should be able to use their money to provide their kids with the best education possible. If they believe that is a religious school, so be it. I'm pro-choice.

In your hypothetical, when it comes to funding, I'd be in favor of using the taxpayer money to improve the public schools.

It's not hypothetical that a great deal of government schools are terrible. And it's not for lack of funding. If it were a money issue, these schools would have become great generations ago. Your "solution" is to just have more expensive garbage schools when there are many good alternatives already in existence.

 

[Bodhisattva]

But, you also know well that vouchers don't do that. They provide a way for the upper middle to wealthy to get a discount on a great private education while stripping resources from elsewhere. You know this of course but have either deluded yourself or just don't care.

Wow, you continue to be so wrong. The good private school that Lily attended up to 7th grade cost less than the crappy public school she would have otherwise been forced to attend. Talk about being deluded - substituting tribalism for actual knowledge is an example of delusion, which you do a lot. But, the statists are going to state. SMH

 

[Jon]

Wow, you continue to be so wrong. The good private school that Lily attended up to 7th grade cost less than the crappy public school she would have otherwise been forced to attend. Talk about being deluded - substituting tribalism for actual knowledge is an example of delusion, which you do a lot. But, the statists are going to state. SMH

nice annecdote

here's data

Most Private School Voucher Recipients Never Attended Public Schools — National Coalition for Public Education (NCPE)

Most Private School Voucher Recipients Are Wealthy Families Who Never Attended Public Schools

www.ncpecoalition.org

.

and tribal? Rich coming from you. smaller tribe but a tribe nonetheless

 

[JDCrimson]

This is federal law regarding any IEP. The kicker is getting the school systems to actually respect the law as written. Its written this way as a deterrent to not following the IEP in spirit and form. There is a significant amount of discrimination towards children with special needs within school systems across the country and especially where I am from in Alabama. The school system administration locally simply doesnt care about atypical kids providing little to no support/resources to the teachers. You witness it firsthand and it is heartbreaking the parents have limited options to educate your child.

Related point, a kinsman of mine works for the NY City School System processing certain claims.

In NYC, if your kid has a learning disability, the NYC School System has a responsibility to accommodate him/her. Here's the catch: the parents get to determine whether the accomodation is satisfactory or not. If the accommodation is not acceptable, then the parents can find an acceptable accommodation, including in private religious school.

Here's the kicker: the city has to pay the tuition at the "acceptable" school, so guess what is happening? Parents do not want their kids to go to public school, find a doctor willing to declare junior in writing to have a learning disability, parents declare the public school accommodation unsat, and junior ends up at a very expensive private religious school.

Shlomo Heimovitz and Avigail Rosenberg all have "learning disabilities."

God only knows how much this costs NY City School, but it is NY City money so I do not much care.

 

[81usaf92]

I'm equally opposed to vouchers being used for homeschools (and many charter schools too, depending on the standards and other requirements set by the state/district). And while secular private schools might not be as much of a issue when it comes to indoctrination, the conservative/evangelical private religious schools in the states really pushing the voucher programs are a legitimate concern.

In any case, public money should not be used for private education.

On one hand I’m totally opposed to a voucher program altogether because the very idea of taxpayer money going to pay for a student to go anywhere other than public education is ludicrous but on the other hand I do see a serious issue of forcing a kid because of location and socioeconomic status to attend a failing public school.

But my point is mainly this, too often the left tends to view private schools as both the British equivalent of a private school and an indoctrination camp because most are religious based. But the reality of it is that the overwhelming number of them are filled with very underpaid staffs, a very small student body, and slightly better academic and athletic performances than their public school counterparts. Meaning there is no real advantage other than a small size and structure to going to your average private school than your average succeeding public school.

I think what often doesn’t get brought up in these discussions is how certain public schools get to draw zoning maps and find economic ways to keep people out of their schools. Looking at places like Saraland and mountain brook. These have the unofficial name of semi private schools. To me they are probably a bigger problem because they effectively push kids who aren’t elite in academics or athletics into failing county school systems because there really isn’t any alternatives.

 

[81usaf92]

if it were possible absolutely we should 100% be striving for all kids to get the best education possible. Private, public, whatever.

But, you also know well that vouchers don't do that. They provide a way for the upper middle to wealthy to get a discount on a great private education while stripping resources from elsewhere. You know this of course but have either deluded yourself or just don't care.

My opinion the purpose of public education is to rise up the entire populace. Vouchers are the worst way to do this. Great for the kids who can who can advantage of course but very much at the expense of those that can't.

I think if we are going to have a voucher system then it should be used to allow accommodations to be made for a student in a failing public school system to attend a successful public education system and that it be tightly monitored. Because what the voucher system that is being imposed is doing is promoting all the anti vaxxers who put their kids in homeschools to being rewarded for doing so.

I think private schools are actually the ones that are going to be hurt by the voucher system because it’s going to force conversations about raising teacher pay and benefits issues that they don’t have right now.

 

[81usaf92]

No there is an obvious aversion to any type of religious based education and the only teaching should be government approved. Its working great in places like Baltimore.

i think too many critics of private schools want to present them as religious Hogwarts academies. When most private schools are relatively small and unremarkable buildings

 

[Bodhisattva]

nice annecdote

LOL! Do you think that the tuition at the private school being lower than the cost of the public school only applied to Lily? Or do you think that arrangement applied to every student - past, present, and foreseeable future - at her school and every school like it? Ok, I'll let you know that it's the latter. But I guess that's just hundreds of thousands of anecdotes? Geez, dude!

here's data

Data with no context from an organization that wants to make sure bad public schools keep receiving all their funding. Ok, that's very helpful. LOL!

and tribal? Rich coming from you. smaller tribe but a tribe nonetheless

Ah, Jon. Frequently wrong but never in doubt. It's hilarious how you define your terms however you want. That's one way to never have to do any serious thinking or learn from others' experiences, I guess. Whatever makes it easier for you to get through the day. Good luck.