When it comes to layoffs/cutbacks, does seniority no longer matter?

[bamachile]

it hasn't been in a long time, if ever. look at all of the labor issues around the turn of the century (20th) and after. but yes, the corporate model is somewhat a reflection of American values, it has always been.

92, you've always got a thoughtful take on topics. I appreciate that.

In an absolute sense, your quote is correct. I do believe that a sense of loyalty (both directions) was valued more in a society which was less geographically fluid, though, even if it was for practical rather than moral or ethical reasons. The increasing ability and tendency of the populous to more readily relocate for a better job and the corresponding trend of businesses to do the same for a different labor force has changed our dynamic greatly. The concept of a two week notice is much less firm than when I entered the work force, for example, and the number of companies with a retirement plan has greatly shrunk. There are other indicators, some objective and some subjective, but the old paradigm of working one or two jobs in one lifetime is - for better or worse - disappearing from our landscape. This is what makes seniority vs. ability such a pertinent topic - it's a discussion of the changing world in which we live and the consequences of those changes.

I believe that both seniority and ability should both matter, BTW, and don't care for models that ignore either. That is a far cry from claiming I know the best balance, however, and I am keenly interested in this thread.

Carry on. DT_popc1:

 

[Bamaro]

You're exactly right. Which is why I no longer "go the extra mile" for my employer. I do exactly what I'm paid to do. Nothing more, nothing less. No more showing up early and leaving late to impress anybody. No more taking work home over the weekend to ensure on Monday I'm completely caught up and it looks good on my account sheet. It's not worth it. What good does it do me? NONE! All the "going the extra mile" does is create a new expectation. What used to be "going above and beyond" is no longer considered "going above and beyond". It is now the expectation and pay stays the same.

Good points and I agree, BUT, what happens when your employer hires a bunch of non citizen workers who are willing to go the extra mile.

 

[AlexanderFan]

You're exactly right. Which is why I no longer "go the extra mile" for my employer. I do exactly what I'm paid to do. Nothing more, nothing less. No more showing up early and leaving late to impress anybody. No more taking work home over the weekend to ensure on Monday I'm completely caught up and it looks good on my account sheet. It's not worth it. What good does it do me? NONE! All the "going the extra mile" does is create a new expectation. What used to be "going above and beyond" is no longer considered "going above and beyond". It is now the expectation and pay stays the same.

That it does my friend, that it does.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Good points and I agree, BUT, what happens when your employer hires a bunch of non citizen workers who are willing to go the extra mile.

Well, seeing that I'm an accountant the illegals have yet to reach my sector of business. Not saying it won't eventually happen. But I guess I'd do what I'd have to do. I did it for ten + years before realizing it wasn't getting me better pay, promotions or better benefits/perks. But rather taking valuable time away from my family and putting me into a state of mental exhaustion to where when I was home I didn't feel like doing anything.

 

[Tide1986]

Well, seeing that I'm an accountant the illegals have yet to reach my sector of business. Not saying it won't eventually happen. But I guess I'd do what I'd have to do. I did it for ten + years before realizing it wasn't getting me better pay, promotions or better benefits/perks. But rather taking valuable time away from my family and putting me into a state of mental exhaustion to where when I was home I didn't feel like doing anything.

There's at least one example of an illegal immigrant getting ready to become a lawyer licensed to practice in California. Maybe your field is next.

California Law Allows Undocumented Immigrants to Practice Law

 

[Bamabuzzard]

There's at least one example of an illegal immigrant getting ready to become a lawyer licensed to practice in California. Maybe your field is next.

California Law Allows Undocumented Immigrants to Practice Law

Maybe so. Then I can start drawing a check and going fishing evah day. :biggrin2:

 

[Tide1986]

Maybe so. Then I can start drawing a check and going fishing evah day. :biggrin2:

Surely having your job taken by an illegal immigrant would qualify you for payments under the Social Security disability program. You could then join the 14+ million other people sitting on the proverbial "front porch" and watching others drive by on their way to work.

 

[92tide]

You're exactly right. Which is why I no longer "go the extra mile" for my employer. I do exactly what I'm paid to do. Nothing more, nothing less. No more showing up early and leaving late to impress anybody. No more taking work home over the weekend to ensure on Monday I'm completely caught up and it looks good on my account sheet. It's not worth it. What good does it do me? NONE! All the "going the extra mile" does is create a new expectation. What used to be "going above and beyond" is no longer considered "going above and beyond". It is now the expectation and pay stays the same.

yeah, i got to that point my last year or so at GaTech. during all of the budgeting problems in georgia during the 2000's they put a freeze on pay increases, but allowed increases with a change in title. problem being, i was research faculty and in our college, they forgot to specifically write in "research faculty" to the official policy, and our d-bag dean "always" followed policy (yeah right). so i get my promotion to research scientist II after busting my rear for 4 years, and then they break the bad news about no pay increase because of a technicality. my boss was able to finagle a 6% or so raise for me through creative budgeting, but it should have been 20-25k/year raise. when the opportunity came to leave and work with my wife at her family's company, i didnt really hesitate.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

yeah, i got to that point my last year or so at GaTech. during all of the budgeting problems in georgia during the 2000's they put a freeze on pay increases, but allowed increases with a change in title. problem being, i was research faculty and in our college, they forgot to specifically write in "research faculty" to the official policy, and our d-bag dean "always" followed policy (yeah right). so i get my promotion to research scientist II after busting my rear for 4 years, and then they break the bad news about no pay increase because of a technicality. my boss was able to finagle a 6% or so raise for me through creative budgeting, but it should have been 20-25k/year raise. when the opportunity came to leave and work with my wife at her family's company, i didnt really hesitate.

I don't blame you for leaving. I didn't get screwed out of that much but mine was in the neighborhood of 10-12k/year. Busted my butt for four years as an Accounting Supervisor by title but actually doing Accounting Manager's work. And like you it was a "technicality" that allowed them to keep my pay the same while actually changing my job description without changing my title. A title change meant another pay grade. As you I left at the first decent opportunity that came along.

 

[twofbyc]

Maybe so. Then I can start drawing a check and going fishing evah day. :biggrin2:

You can do that now...go file for disability. Be sure and hire one of the lawyers advertising for disability claims, it's almost a lock.

 

[AlexanderFan]

You can do that now...go file for disability. Be sure and hire one of the lawyers advertising for disability claims, it's almost a lock.

You must've watched the " Sixty minutes" segment I did. I actually couldn't finish it I got so disgusted.

 

[cuda.1973]

You're exactly right. Which is why I no longer "go the extra mile" for my employer. I do exactly what I'm paid to do. Nothing more, nothing less. No more showing up early and leaving late to impress anybody. No more taking work home over the weekend to ensure on Monday I'm completely caught up and it looks good on my account sheet. It's not worth it. What good does it do me? NONE! All the "going the extra mile" does is create a new expectation. What used to be "going above and beyond" is no longer considered "going above and beyond". It is now the expectation and pay stays the same.

A member of the extended family fell into this trap. They would come in early, stay late, but it wasn't necessarily to "go the extra mile". A lot of it was just to do what they were assigned to do. (Of course, that might have been because they wasted part of the normal work day doing other folk's work.) I tried to 'splain that eventually they would figure out that if you are the only person who can not get their work done, in the normal time frame, they might conclude you are incompetent.

Yeah, guess who got let go, next round of RIFs. They deadbeats this person carried got spared.

But, your point is well taken. The folks making the decisions are usually not the ones who notice who goes the extra mile. Decisions are usually made on the bottom line, which does not always tell the whole story.

If I were ever to go back into the work force, it would only be as a temp. And only because it would pay more than running my own outfit. They would only get what they paid for, and I would look at my time there as brief interim where I padded my bank account. And nothing more.

As for illegals taking my job.............

Well, don't know of any illegals, but lots of legal aliens. Irony is they are all out of work, as well! Moral of the story is not to be an engineer. Teachers and nurses are also notoriously taken advantage of, but most can still find work after the age of 45.

 

[twofbyc]

You must've watched the " Sixty minutes" segment I did. I actually couldn't finish it I got so disgusted.

It's even on local news last night...it is unbelievable how the lawyers, doctors and judges have all conspired to rob the rest of us blind. I don't think Papillon's prison was good enough for these people.

 

[MattinBama]

I have been a temp since February. Every time work is low & layoffs come the permanent people get sent home & we stay. They've been promising us permanent positions for a while and nothing. I even replaced a permanent worker in one of the main positions in the plant. Still nothing. All of the slacker temps are already gone but they're still dangling the carrot in front of us that want to work while paying us next to nothing.

A lot of places are shifting to this permanent temp garbage. Buddy of mine out at Hyundai told me there are now more temps out there than permanent employees.

 

[CrimsonProf]

I have been a temp since February. Every time work is low & layoffs come the permanent people get sent home & we stay. They've been promising us permanent positions for a while and nothing. I even replaced a permanent worker in one of the main positions in the plant. Still nothing. All of the slacker temps are already gone but they're still dangling the carrot in front of us that want to work while paying us next to nothing.

A lot of places are shifting to this permanent temp garbage. Buddy of mine out at Hyundai told me there are now more temps out there than permanent employees.

You can thank the federal government for that.

 

[MattinBama]

You can thank the federal government for that.

I have known for years that they are the main ones to thank.