Why defense should matter in the Heisman race

[twofbyc]

Just to make the numbers more credible in regards to who played when/how much, can someone run their stats based off passing yards per quarter played? (Which the 3 or 4 passes Tua threw in 4th quarters is going to skew his a bit I’d assume).
One thing that I think that will go in Murray’s favor is the running stats. He’s got quite a bit if I’m not mistaken. We all know Tua can run, he just doesn’t as much. Then there was the dinged knee so he was somewhat immobile for a while.

FTR - (saw this stat on ESPN):
Tua has 8 pass attempts in the fourth quarter.
I didn’t see them post how many Murray had but I’m thinking it’s a few more. [emoji57]


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[B1GTide]

I read this on an OU board:



For those who think we run too tight a ship here, that remark was made by an "Administrator"...

Someone needs to be sure that this comment makes it to Tua and Alabama's o-line

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I'm not accusing.....I'm pointing out that you selectively left out AU when they have a Top 20 defense and that just happened to be his best game All season. His LSU game was probably his 2nd Best. That's 2 Top 20 Defenses he went off on.

You can't just pick LSU, MSU (skip AU) and go to UGA.

Plus I said his faced 4 Top 20 defenses and had 1,000 yards and 11 TD's against THEM in 4 games. 250 per game and 2.75 TD's per game.

I left Citadel out because we are talking about Very Good Defenses.

Go back and read my entire post - and then comprehend what I was saying.

Tua's problem isn't what he DID do in the Auburn game; it's what he DID NOT do in the MSU and Georgia games.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I read this on an OU board:



For those who think we run too tight a ship here, that remark was made by an "Administrator"...

Good night......


The funny thing that nobody seems to be pointing out is......Alabama's defense faces just as potent and offense in practice every single day.

But look - I live in Dallas where a LOT of Sooners reside and let me be blunt.....most of them are as lame as Texas fans. There's a bunch of them boasting about how they put so many points on the board against UGA last year.

Not one of them seems to realize they lost the ballgame.......

 

[deliveryman35]

I love Tua to death, but Kyler outperformed him down the home stretch. Neither QB has any control over what kind of defenses they face. I would love to see Tua win it but I will have no problem whatsoever when(presumably) Kyler gets the trophy tonight.

 

[B1GTide]

I love Tua to death, but Kyler outperformed him down the home stretch. Neither QB has any control over what kind of defenses they face. I would love to see Tua win it but I will have no problem whatsoever when(presumably) Kyler gets the trophy tonight.

This would be like me saying that Haskins should win it because he played better in the late games. It ignores the losses and so many other things.

 

[deliveryman35]

I read this on an OU board:



For those who think we run too tight a ship here, that remark was made by an "Administrator"...

They are very jealous of the run that we’ve had. They really think in their minds that they have the most successful program in modern college football history—and they use our head to head record to back up their position. Of course, it is a flawed argument. What we have accomplished the last 10 yrs has moved us way past them.

That being said....I think this person is right on one point—while Tua’s performance was in the stratosphere for Sept and Oct, he was quickly brought back down to earth starting with the LSU game and really ever since then. I know what he did vs Auburn, but he also had one very mediocre half in that game.

I want Tua to win it, but as I’ve said I think Kyler outperformed him late in the season and that it will be the difference.

 

[STONECOLDSABAN]

They are very jealous of the run that we’ve had. They really think in their minds that they have the most successful program in modern college football history—and they use our head to head record to back up their position. Of course, it is a flawed argument. What we have accomplished the last 10 yrs has moved us way past them.

That being said....I think this person is right on one point—while Tua’s performance was in the stratosphere for Sept and Oct, he was quickly brought back down to earth starting with the LSU game and really ever since then. I know what he did vs Auburn, but he also had one very mediocre half in that game.

I want Tua to win it, but as I’ve said I think Kyler outperformed him late in the season and that it will be the difference.

Its not hard to outperform him you play against god awful defenses compared 3 really good defenses in 5 weeks. I don't understand this logic of the defenses you play not mattering. It would be like if I beat up a bunch small children and was considered more worthy of a ufc title shot then a guy who was a really good fighter but had to win a couple of times by decision against actual competition. "well he had no control over who he was fighting...But that other guy struggled at times" yeah he struggled at times AGAINST ACTUAL FIGHTERS.

 

[PA Tide Fan]

With all the different stats that are created to measure performance I'm surprised that nobody has developed a stat that includes level of competition to measure QB performance.

 

[day-day]

Its not hard to outperform him you play against god awful defenses compared 3 really good defenses in 5 weeks. I don't understand this logic of the defenses you play not mattering. It would be like if I beat up a bunch small children and was considered more worthy of a ufc title shot then a guy who was a really good fighter but had to win a couple of times by decision against actual competition. "well he had no control over who he was fighting...But that other guy struggled at times" yeah he struggled at times AGAINST ACTUAL FIGHTERS.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

One problem here is that I agree with almost all of you on the points you make.

1) The defenses you play have to matter (otherwise Timmy Chang and Kliff Kingsbury should have won).

2) Murray can't exactly help how good or poor the opponent's defense is.

3) All your games should matter - not just the so-called biggest stage.

4) By contrast, you have to expect the best player to play his best in the best game.


I think there's a reality missing here: You get Heisman votes based on what you actually DID, not what you COULD HAVE DONE under other circumstances. My problem has never been that so much as the fact that team label makes a difference. Put Murray on Iowa State with the same stats, and we might possibly know his name at best.

And the fact Mayfield won it last year ought to give credence to it being the system and not the player.

 

[B1GTide]

4) By contrast, you have to expect the best player to play his best in the best game as long as he is not injured.

FIFY. You cannot expect Tua to play his best when he is hurt. It is not logical. His best opponents all fell on the schedule after he was hurt. So, please, stop saying this. It is nonsensical.

 

[81usaf92]

I can’t wait until December 14th to get here

 

[deliveryman35]

If we are going to discount bad performances by major contenders in last games with the reg season, then
Mark Ingram does not win it in 2009. We cannot have it both ways.

 

[B1GTide]

If we are going to discount bad performances by major contenders in last games with the reg season, then
Mark Ingram does not win it in 2009. We cannot have it both ways.

No one is discounting bad performances. Tell me where you see that.

 

[DzynKingRTR]

One problem here is that I agree with almost all of you on the points you make.

1) The defenses you play have to matter (otherwise Timmy Chang and Kliff Kingsbury should have won).

2) Murray can't exactly help how good or poor the opponent's defense is.

3) All your games should matter - not just the so-called biggest stage.

4) By contrast, you have to expect the best player to play his best in the best game.


I think there's a reality missing here: You get Heisman votes based on what you actually DID, not what you COULD HAVE DONE under other circumstances. My problem has never been that so much as the fact that team label makes a difference. Put Murray on Iowa State with the same stats, and we might possibly know his name at best.

And the fact Mayfield won it last year ought to give credence to it being the system and not the player.

There was a guy at Central michigan putting up similar numbers to Tebow when Tebow won his Heisman. I doubt anyone remembers his name.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

FIFY. You cannot expect Tua to play his best when he is hurt. It is not logical. His best opponents all fell on the schedule after he was hurt. So, please, stop saying this. It is nonsensical.

The fact is them are the breaks.

Murray took more snaps - meaning he had more chances to be injured, too.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

There was a guy at Central michigan putting up similar numbers to Tebow when Tebow won his Heisman. I doubt anyone remembers his name.

Exactly. Tebow wasn't even in the top 20 passers in CFB that year. The guy you're talking about didn't even finish in the top ten.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

If we are going to discount bad performances by major contenders in last games with the reg season, then
Mark Ingram does not win it in 2009. We cannot have it both ways.

Uh, Mark Ingram won the Heisman thanks to the Florida game......which despite the cries of Danny Kanell and others IS the "regular season."

 

[81usaf92]

So we have either 3 days of enjoying the heisman or about 6 days of conspiracy theories and excuses to look forward to on this board.... please Tua win