Why neither my wife nor I will vote for Trump or Biden

4Q Basket Case

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I'd wager most posters here are like me, living in states that are going red or blue no matter what.

You might not like it, but the individual votes of posters here living in deep red or deep blue states literally don't matter.
At the presidential level, there's no doubt this is true.

I hold out more hope on down-ballot elections in states that aren't deep blue or red, though even that is fading.

In deep blue and red states, nominees of both parties are scared to death of being primaried from the left (blue) or right (red). In both cases, the hard core base makes up a disproportionate share of the primary voters.

That leads to nominees for the general election who are farther left or right than either party's electorate as a whole.

I'm more hopeful for purple states to be the adults in the room. We'll see.

Think about this: Trump is a known cancer (nod to posters above who have characterized him that way -- 1000% accyrate). Biden isn't mentally capable of handling the office today, let alone for almost five more years. Merrick Garland, that bastion of MAGA thought, has essentially told us that he doesn't have the faculties.

It's not a matter of age. Some 82 year olds could handle it. Some 70 year olds couldn't. Regardless of his number of trips around the sun, the demands of the job are beyond Biden's capabilities.

A vote for Trump is a vote for a cancer who will attempt a banana-republic type coup. A vote for Biden is at best a vote for Kamala Harris and at worst a vote for a person lacking the mental ability to do the job.

The Republicans are a lost cause. So I'm hoping the Democrats draft someone like Joe Manchin. If he doesn't face a threat from the left (Bernie Sanders, any number of far left members of Congress), he'll win and bring some sanity to a bare-knuckled fray.

In Alabama and several other hard-core red states, none of this matters. They're going to vote for Trump and for his down-ballot endorsees. Same thing in blue for California, New York and Massachusetts.

Some of the more sane states may yet save us....I hope.
 
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Tideflyer

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you're pretty young I guess, I'd argue Hillary versus Trump was far worse
LOL! Thank you sir! First time I`ve been categorized as " young " with 75 years in the rear view mirror!
And I couldn`t disagree more concerning Hillary vs. Trump as compared to these two.
 
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Go Bama

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Biden isn't mentally capable of handling the office today, let alone for almost five more years. Merrick Garland, that bastion of MAGA thought, has essentially told us that he doesn't have the faculties.
Are you referring to the report by Robert Hur? Did Garland have anything to do with that other than assigning Hur to the job?

Hur's report itself was a partisan hit job. The DOJ released a similar report on Mike Pence the day before Pence announced his candidacy for the president. That report was one page long. Hur's report was over 300 pages. Rather than just saying no criminal charges were warranted, Hur proceeded to politically indict Biden with all this talk of him being old, infirm, and having memory loss.

From yesterday's HCR letter: As television host and former Republican representative from Florida Joe Scarborough put it: “He couldn’t indict Biden legally so he tried to indict Biden politically.”

To my knowledge we have no video of the interview, so I'm taking anything this Republican special counsel says with a grain of salt.

What smells so fishy are the comments that Biden couldn't remember within several years when his son, Bo, died or when he was VP. These are not things easily forgotten, and we have absolutely no context. Biden is not a mental vegetable.

I am concerned about confusing Mitterand and Macron, and Mexico and Egypt. I wish Biden were younger. But ALL the claims I have seen of Biden being in "obvious mental decline" have been made by media looking for a sensational story, or people here, none of whom are qualified to make the Dx, much less from watching snippets on newsreels or YouTube.

Now, if for no other reason, my vote counts as my having performed my duty as an American citizen. It's not a law that we have to vote, and I don't want it to be a law, but it is our duty if we are able, at least IMO. Also, it is our duty to educate ourselves about the candidates.
 
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Crimson1967

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That is correct. No argument. I just find it amusing how many people call our form of government a " democracy " with apparently no knowledge or thought of the other.
What one calls it is just a matter of semantics. It is what it is.
 

Tidewater

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Well, in Biden`s case, if job approval polls are any indication, somebody must be falling down on the job when it comes to convincing the American people that he`s " over performed ". I admittedly don`t know what the very latest figures are, but I would submit that there`s never been a pending presidential election in which a higher percentage of the electorate wishes that both likely nominees would just go away. Certainly in my lifetime there`s been nothing like it.
The campaign approach of both Republicans and Democrats has been, "Our guy has warts, but there's no way our guy will lose to that other guy."
 

Tidewater

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we are a Constitutional Republican built on Democratic Principles, I hate this argument so much
Holding two poliSci degree, the argument does matter.
Merriam-Webster (selected because it if readily available) defines democracy this way:
  • government by the people, especially rule of the majority.
  • a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.
The same sources defines a republic in the following terms:
  • a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president.
  • a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.
By these, it is impossible to be a republic without democratic principles, but to distinguish between the two concepts, if the voters of the United States were to go to the polls and choose Roman Catholicism as the established religion of the United States, in a democracy, that would be final, and Catholicism would be the established religion of the United States. In a republic, such a vote would be meaningless.
The same would apply if Congress were to adopt, and the President sign, a bill establishing the Catholic Church.
 
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81usaf92

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I'd wager most posters here are like me, living in states that are going red or blue no matter what.

You might not like it, but the individual votes of posters here living in deep red or deep blue states literally don't matter.
In Alabama the most important thing that you look forward to voting on is your local elections. It’s the only thing that you legitimately have a chance to change. The Democrats have long given up to the point that they didn’t even bother promoting the last candidate for governor against Ivey.
 
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81usaf92

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I don't know, there were people passionately supporting Hillary - it's hard to find anyone passionately supporting Biden (save that he's not Trump).

Only Carter had lower approval ratings than Biden after his third year.
Biden in 2020 was the “Anyone but Trump” candidate. His appeal was that he wasn’t a controversial pick like Hillary and was seen as the “I will give him a chance because I would vote for just about anyone but that other guy” guy.

I don’t know if he will be able to play that as well this time. There are several things working against him in terms of foreign affairs and the border. I still see Biden winning but I’m far from as certain as I was 4 years ago.
 

Tideflyer

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Not voting for Trump is easy. He’s a cancer. We don’t want cancer. The end.

So, for a member of Team Donkey, not wanting Trump means you must like Biden. Heh. It’s also very easy to eliminate the chance we’d vote for Biden based on his lacking mental ability. It’s been demonstrated for a long time, but the last couple of days have been a spectacular exhibition of futility. You can’t explain his gaffes away – as some are wanting to do – that the dude just stutters. Biden’s claim he has recently met with two long-dead foreign leaders is not stuttering. His conflation of Egypt with Mexico is not stuttering. The tribalists are going to make laughable excuses for everything, of course, and they are contorting their logic like they are playing Twister while having sand in their panties.

But, even if we wanted to ignore the mental decline and excuse it all away and have blind faith that Biden’s team would carry out policy, why would his policies win our votes?

I have issues in general with anyone who looks to the government to solve our problems. I’ve witnessed firsthand for 15 years the stupidity and colossal waste. You have to be clueless to want this. It’s a no sale for me. Specifically, I will point out to one recent Monument of Dumb to demonstrate how I derive at my disgust for Old Joe.

My Mom made her living from rental properties in Alabama. She has dementia, and while moving her closer to me, I also spent a year taking over the management of her properties and dealing with tenants who took advantage of my Mom. They simply stopped paying rent. With a new manager, the deadbeats either left on their own or were eventually forced out through the courts. The units were repaired and new tenants moved in. This took months.

My wife and I also have rental properties in St. Augustine.

Then comes the federal eviction moratorium. The idea was that people who lost their jobs due COVID could not be evicted. And in exchange the government (taxpayer) would pay the landlord the rent. Well, that’s not constitutional, but the Constitution only matters when it’s convenient, right? And the left loves tenants and loathes landlords. So, it was a celebrated bit of policy. I knew this was federal overreach, but whatever as long as I would get paid by someone. My Mom’s properties were long paid off (although it took about $300,000 for all the repairs from the first batch of deadbeats), but my wife and I had mortgages on 9 of the 10 residential rentals we just bought months earlier. (We aggressively pay off mortgages, but we had just bought these properties and had only paid off one so far.)

The eviction moratorium shows the typical gulf between how the plan is sold to the public versus how it is implemented. A tenant is supposed to prove they lost their job due to COVID, and then the government would take over and pay the rent. Not a complicated two-step process. But, the government is retarded.

In practice, it worked like this: Tenant hears about a way to live rent-free. They go file the form with the government. Relief is granted without question. They are golden. Does the tenant have to actually prove they lost their job? No. No checking is ever done. How do I know this? Because nearly all of my Mom’s tenants and several of my tenants did this and got rent relief and none had lost their jobs. The government never checks anything (at least not in real time. Maybe years later). It’s so easy to game a government program. The people gaming the system are idiots, but they are smarter than government policymakers.

But I got the rent, right? No. The two-step process is uncoupled. None of the tenants did the second step of filling out paperwork so that the property owner could get paid. They were not required to do so. And filing out a form takes effort, and it's not for their benefit. So, why bother? Not linking these two events is … retarded. See a theme?

But at least I don’t have to pay the 9 mortgages while all this is going on, right? Incorrect. If you were expecting non-retarded government policy, you would be foolish.

So, this unconstitutional, massively destructive policy lasted about a year until the Supreme Court struck it down. The cost to me and my family was in the many hundreds of thousands of dollars that can never be recouped. Tenants that could pay rent were encouraged not to by this administration. The unintended consequences are obvious to predict even to one of minimal intelligence. But, to the people making public policy, having minimal intelligence is a bar too high. Or maybe they don’t care. They got to check the concern box, and their fan boys applauded.

One policy. One stupid policy. Look at all the damage it caused. And people want government to have more control over our lives? Pathetic!

My wife has her own reasons apart from getting ripped off by Biden’s stupidity on the eviction moratorium. When Lan went back to school to study anesthesiology, she had to take out over $180,000 in student loans. Once she was done with school, we planned out how to pay off this debt. IIRC she had nine different loans of various amounts. We did not consolidate the loans and planned to aggressively attack the debt smallest to largest. Lan took her signing bonus and immediately knocked out a couple of loans. (She did not buy a car or fancy clothes or designer handbags.) She diverted $1000 per paycheck into a bank account dedicated only to her loans. After three years, she had eliminated more than half of her debt.

Then came the pause in student loan payments. For three years. As any intelligent and responsible person would, Lan continued to set aside $1000/paycheck. I’m sure everyone else did this as well, right? They wouldn’t take the three-year windfall and spend that money on crap, right?

A few months ago, after three years, payments finally resumed. Since Lan had continued to set money aside during this time, she could pay everything off. I asked Lan if she wanted to wait until after the election to pay off her loans. Maybe a Biden victory would lead to some of her loans being forgiven. We both laughed at that notion. Lan is too responsible and too successful to get student loan relief. And it is a point of pride for her to pay her own way. (Paying one's own bills is offensive to the Left.) She electronically wrote a check for $83,000. Done! She is now debt free.

So, why does she not care for Biden? Because, on this issue, he (and the Dems) caters to society’s whiners and underachievers. She can’t stand that mentality. Seeing her money given to society’s losers makes her very angry. (She works very hard for her money. As do I. And the federal government taxes us at a marginal rate of 37%. Thieves!) There are now a large portion of people who still refuse to start repaying their loans because there is no penalty for being a slacker. IIRC, no interest will accumulate, and this won’t go on a credit report. So, why be responsible? The government encourages you not to be.

Lan (and her siblings and their friends) is simply not in the target demographic of the Democrat Party. And neither am I.

So, no, we will not vote for Biden. He’s too much of a sack of crap to earn our votes. As is Trump. Both sides.
Sooooo....... It`s like a high hanging curve ball. Just got to swing! Then who....??? Too many good men and women have paid the ultimate price and/or worn ( and still wear ) the uniform in order that we have the rights that we still do enjoy, one of the most sacred, IMO, the right ( obligation as a citizen ? ) to go to the polls and cast a vote. Thinking of not voting makes me sick to my stomach. So do our candidates. So who??
 

JDCrimson

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But if people voted for the Anyone but Trump in the last election, i dont see how any of those voters crossover and vote for Trump this time.

Literally, what has Trump done to enhance his image since that time? The voters would have voted for Biden or some other candidate or stayed home before J6 happened and now they would vote for him after it happened? After stealing classified documents? After indictment for tax fraud? After indicment for voter fraud and extortion? After liability civil rape and 2 counts of defamtion against the victim?

The people who cross back over to vote for Trump who voted for Biden in 2020, the level of idiocy defies description imo.

Im voting for Biden even if he is wearing a bib while eating oatmeal...

And for those people who don't vote in heavy red or blue states. You are silently assenting to the autocracy already in place if it's not your chosen philosophy. When does any political engaged party or candidate get up off their ass and do more to garner your vote if literally nothing they do will encourage you to get up off your ass and participate? The engaged candidates and the engaged voters are winning and will always win unless and until a confluence of others get engaged to turn the tide.

Our collective passivity toward voting in this nation has put us on the precipice of voting is not necessary in order take control of the country. Tell me who are we if have to pay taxes but can't vote? A peasant imo... Then we are back to the conclusion those guys in the Boston Harbor just threw away some really good tea... Everything that happened after that was a waste of money and men.

Sorry for the rant, it wasnt directed at you personally.

Biden in 2020 was the “Anyone but Trump” candidate. His appeal was that he wasn’t a controversial pick like Hillary and was seen as the “I will give him a chance because I would vote for just about anyone but that other guy” guy.

I don’t know if he will be able to play that as well this time. There are several things working against him in terms of foreign affairs and the border. I still see Biden winning but I’m far from as certain as I was 4 years ago.
 
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81usaf92

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But if people voted for the Anyone but Trump in the last election, i dont see how any of those voters crossover and vote for Trump this time.

Literally, what has Trump done to enhance his image since that time? The voters would have voted for Biden or some other candidate or stayed home before J6 happened and now they would vote for him after it happened? After stealing classified documents? After indictment for tax fraud? After indicment for voter fraud and extortion? After liability civil rape and 2 counts of defamtion against the victim?

The people who cross back over to vote for Trump who voted for Biden in 2020, the level of idiocy defies description imo.

Im voting for Biden even if he is wearing a bib while eating oatmeal...

And for those people who don't vote in heavy red or blue states. You are silently assenting to the autocracy already in place if it's not your chosen philosophy. When does any political engaged party or candidate get up off their ass and do more to garner your vote if literally nothing they do will encourage you to get up off your ass and participate? The engaged candidates and the engaged voters are winning and will always win unless and until a confluence of others get engaged to turn the tide.

Our collective passivity toward voting in this nation has put us on the precipice of voting is not necessary in order take control of the country. Tell me who are we if have to pay taxes but can't vote? A peasant imo...

Sorry for the rant, it wasnt directed at you personally.
A big part of it was Trump’s handling of COVID and the George Floyd protests. However Biden faces a similar threat to his reelection chances with far less mail in voting opportunities. The war in Ukraine, the Israeli-Palestinian War, and the Border issues loom big on the 2024 election. Whether these all are on Biden or not will be irrelevant because they all will be in terms of the average voter.

Again I think Biden would beat Trump but it’s not going to be as easy this time around. He has lost a considerable amount of support that he had going into the 2020 election that I’m not sure he can get back. There really isn’t the same energy going into this election right now that he had in 2020. I think the Biden campaign is seriously hoping for a Trump conviction before November at this point just to not to sweat it out.
 

JDCrimson

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Understood, but none of those issues are on Biden.

Again, not at you, but if you vote for Trump because you are dissatisfied with those issues you are not just an uneducated voter, you are committing voter malpractice.

A big part of it was Trump’s handling of COVID and the George Floyd protests. However Biden faces a similar threat to his reelection chances with far less mail in voting opportunities. The war in Ukraine, the Israeli-Palestinian War, and the Border issues loom big on the 2024 election. Whether these all are on Biden or not will be irrelevant because they all will be in terms of the average voter.

Again I think Biden would beat Trump but it’s not going to be as easy this time around. He has lost a considerable amount of support that he had going into the 2020 election that I’m not sure he can get back. There really isn’t the same energy going into this election right now that he had in 2020. I think the Biden campaign is seriously hoping for a Trump conviction before November at this point just to not to sweat it out.
 

4Q Basket Case

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Are you referring to the report by Robert Hur? Did Garland have anything to do with that other than assigning Hur to the job?

Hur's report itself was a partisan hit job. The DOJ released a similar report on Mike Pence the day before Pence announced his candidacy for the president. That report was one page long. Hur's report was over 300 pages. Rather than just saying no criminal charges were warranted, Hur proceeded to politically indict Biden with all this talk of him being old, infirm, and having memory loss.

From yesterday's HCR letter: As television host and former Republican representative from Florida Joe Scarborough put it: “He couldn’t indict Biden legally so he tried to indict Biden politically.”

To my knowledge we have no video of the interview, so I'm taking anything this Republican special counsel says with a grain of salt.

What smells so fishy are the comments that Biden couldn't remember within several years when his son, Bo, died or when he was VP. These are not things easily forgotten, and we have absolutely no context. Biden is not a mental vegetable.

I am concerned about confusing Mitterand and Macron, and Mexico and Egypt. I wish Biden were younger. But ALL the claims I have seen of Biden being in "obvious mental decline" have been made by media looking for a sensational story, or people here, none of whom are qualified to make the Dx, much less from watching snippets on newsreels or YouTube.

Now, if for no other reason, my vote counts as my having performed my duty as an American citizen. It's not a law that we have to vote, and I don't want it to be a law, but it is our duty if we are able, at least IMO. Also, it is our duty to educate ourselves about the candidates.
I am referring to the Hur report.

There is no way on this earth Merrick Garland didn't know and fully bless the content and publication of that report.
 

81usaf92

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Understood, but none of those issues are on Biden.

Again, not at you, but if you vote for Trump because you are dissatisfied with those issues you are not just an uneducated voter, you are committing voter malpractice.
Well one could say that putting a candidate up that could potentially lose to a guy like Trump is voter malpractice too.

My point is that guys like Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney who fall more into the moderate spectrum of Republican Party probably walk away with the election vs Biden in 2024. Trump has a decent chance of winning as is, but I think there is still a hill to climb in the upper Midwest that he just won’t be able to climb to pull it off.
 

Go Bama

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I am referring to the Hur report.

There is no way on this earth Merrick Garland didn't know and fully bless the content and publication of that report.
I just saw Benjamin Netanyahu on This Week with GS. When asked for his assesment of Joe Biden, BN stated that he has had more than a dozen extended recent conversations with Joe Biden, and he talked with Biden personally when Biden went to Israel. "I found him very clear and very focused. We managed to agree on the war aims on many things. Sometimes we had disagreements, but they weren't born of a lack of understanding on his part or my part. So, that's what I can tell you. I haven't seen it."

Your statement about Garland not knowing and giving his blessing is a conclusion based on incomplete information unless you know something the rest of us don't.

Accusing someone of being senile has serious consequences both for the individual (Biden) and the nation. We're all concerned when our leaders don't know the difference between their ex-wife and the woman they raped, or between Mexico and Egypt. However, making a Dx of senility based on internet videos and media newsreels is an overreach.

I'm trying to keep this civil so I'm going to stop now rather than risk insulting someone.
 
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NationalTitles18

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Holding two poliSci degree, the argument does matter.
Merriam-Webster (selected because it if readily available) defines democracy this way:
  • government by the people, especially rule of the majority.
  • a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.
The same sources defines a republic in the following terms:
  • a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president.

  • a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.
By these, it is impossible to be a republic without democratic principles, but to distinguish between the two concepts, if the voters of the United States were to go to the polls and choose Roman Catholicism as the established religion of the United States, in a democracy, that would be final, and Catholicism would be the established religion of the United States. In a republic, such a vote would be meaningless.
The same would apply if Congress were to adopt, and the President sign, a bill establishing the Catholic Church.
Isn't that less a function of being a republic and more a function of having our constitution as the basis of law.

After all, is it not the constitution that prevents congress from establishing a religion?

Otherwise, could the voters not vote in representatives who would do just what you stated? Indeed, some wish to do it now and it isn't always their representatives that keep it from happening.
 
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JDCrimson

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Agree but those guys cant even win the nomination against Trump. Haley is more like them and she wont be the nominee either.

Well one could say that putting a candidate up that could potentially lose to a guy like Trump is voter malpractice too.

My point is that guys like Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney who fall more into the moderate spectrum of Republican Party probably walk away with the election vs Biden in 2024. Trump has a decent chance of winning as is, but I think there is still a hill to climb in the upper Midwest that he just won’t be able to climb to pull it off.
 
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