Why Poor People Stay Poor

[Bazza]

Good try all around, but you should know that seeing and knowing are entirely different beasts. I know people similar to what you describe. I know people who, except for being poor, are nothing like you describe. Some smoke like chimneys. Some are alcoholics. Some are habitual drug users. Most are hard working. Some have never smoked, or drank alcohol (that I'm aware), or used drugs. The church I grew up attending was full of them.

What is this....some kind of contest of who knows the most poor people?

I KNOW plenty of the folks you just described in the SAME exact way you describe.

Plenty.

I've lived all over the country in all kinds of neighborhoods with all kinds of neighbors. I've been in all kinds homes and seen low income my entire life. I've worked all kinds of jobs rubbing elbows with every type of person you can imagine...from working in kitchens to nurseries to landscape projects using hand tools and whatever equipment I can get my hands on including just my hands. You don't think I would get to KNOW all walks of people in all those years?

When my dad lost his job of 17 years because the plant shut down, we were in their ranks. BTW, my mom still believes one drink of alcohol will send you to hades and they both plan on not going there. (I no longer share that belief, in case anyone was wondering)

IOW, my experiences - which have been much more intimate than seeing folks come and go at the local convenience store and speaking about those experiences on internet forums, possibly on occasion with like-minded people on said forums or at Trump rallies - have given me a better insight on people who are poor than someone who has had little to no natural real-life experience living among the poor.

Some pretty big assumptions there....you don't know enough about me (or my family) to go there. My father lost his job when I was 14 - because he passed away from a brain tumor. Fortunately, because he was a 20 year Navy veteran, there was VA and SS money available for me to go to college. I was the only one of my parent's 3 sons to go to college after high school. I felt I had to do it because it was my Dad's hopes and dreams for me. And my Mom's as well. Military families aren't exactly drowning in money, you know. My folks scrimped and saved for everything and taught us to do the same. And as a family we looked out for others because that's the way we were. Not some family that looked down their noses at others because they were struggling.

I have no doubt you have earned everything you have, just as I have. Just think - we could have both been born in Afghanistan or Iraq or Kenya or Ethiopia to poor parents with no education and little to no hope of ever living a better life due to circumstances far beyond our control. Or we could both come from families where education wasn't valued or that had no father/mother to care for us or maybe the IQ was not far above average or so on and so forth. Our circumstances could have been completely different and maybe then neither of us is in America or if we are then it's a completely different experience.

I think about that and realize how fortunate I am. Others, when they think about it, think it's because they are so much better than those people.

Listen buster....don't put me in the same boat you put other people in. You don't know enough about me. I thank the Lord every day for my blessings and am grateful that I had 2 good parents who cared enough for their kids to share with them everything they could to help them grow up to become self-sustaining and morally straight. They also taught us to be compassionate and generous. That will be my parent's legacy to their children. Regardless of your opinion.

I know some of those people. I was those people. So forgive me if I don't take fondly to ignorant self-righteous sanctimonious ideas from others. I'm sure every one of us is associated with something about which we don't want to be stereotyped in a negative way. Unfortunately, there are always those who make the stereotype seem true.

I don't know what else to say.

I'm just going to just assume you may have misinterpreted my post as painting with too broad a brush and leave it at that.

Like I said, there are exceptions.

 

[NationalTitles18]

What is this....some kind of contest of who knows the most poor people?

I KNOW plenty of the folks you just described in the SAME exact way you describe.

Plenty.

I've lived all over the country in all kinds of neighborhoods with all kinds of neighbors. I've been in all kinds homes and seen low income my entire life. I've worked all kinds of jobs rubbing elbows with every type of person you can imagine...from working in kitchens to nurseries to landscape projects using hand tools and whatever equipment I can get my hands on including just my hands. You don't think I would get to KNOW all walks of people in all those years?




Some pretty big assumptions there....you don't know enough about me (or my family) to go there. My father lost his job when I was 14 - because he passed away from a brain tumor. Fortunately, because he was a 20 year Navy veteran, there was VA and SS money available for me to go to college. I was the only one of my parent's 3 sons to go to college after high school. I felt I had to do it because it was my Dad's hopes and dreams for me. And my Mom's as well. Military families aren't exactly drowning in money, you know. My folks scrimped and saved for everything and taught us to do the same. And as a family we looked out for others because that's the way we were. Not some family that looked down their noses at others because they were struggling.




Listen buster....don't put me in the same boat you put other people in. You don't know enough about me. I thank the Lord every day for my blessings and am grateful that I had 2 good parents who cared enough for their kids to share with them everything they could to help them grow up to become self-sustaining and morally straight. They also taught us to be compassionate and generous. That will be my parent's legacy to their children. Regardless of your opinion.



I don't know what else to say.

I'm just going to just assume you may have misinterpreted my post as painting with too broad a brush and leave it at that.

Like I said, there are exceptions.

1. I was very careful not to directly say that any of those things were true of you because I didn't know that they are, but I was reacting to your own description of your knowledge of the subject.

2. I know it's been a while, but I am sorry you lost your father, especially at such a young age. (literally just saw that upon re-reading) I came very close to losing mine when I was about 7yo. He's in his 80's now and in rapidly declining health. That's hard enough with me in my 40's.

3. Thank you for sharing with me/us. I mean that.

4. I took your earlier post at face value. That was it. And I feel you are still painting with too broad a brush. But not just because some never drink or smoke but also because I generally try not to judge other people for how they -rich or poor- spend their money.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Towing companies enjoy quite the racket. They get to charge outrageous amounts and tend to only take cash. When I was in school I had my car stolen. A large part of the blame goes to the local government who decided it was a good idea to move people from the gang-infested areas of the city to the relatively safe north side. Of course, moving gang members who specialized in car theft to victim-rich territory doesn't seem like good policy to me. So, one morning I wake up to find my car is gone. (I found out shortly thereafter that the apartment complex next door is full of heavily rent-subsided tenants who are active car thieves. Nice.) That afternoon the police say they found my car on the south side of town (where the gangs are from) and that my car is in a tow lot. I naively didn't realize I would be charged for this service because, you know, I was the victim. I called and was told the fee. I make it to the lot just before closing only to find out the out they only took cash. Why didn't they tell me that when I called? I had to go back the next with double the amount of cash. Bastards! Like I said, it is a nice racket.

 

[Bodhisattva]

If you are an able-bodied adult who is long-term poor, you are doing something wrong. I say this as someone who grew up desperately poor and has had my share of bad luck. I say this as someone who has siblings who are a mess because they still make very bad decisions. And as bad as my start in life was, very few in this country can claim the hardships my wife has had. Now my wife and I independently would probably be considered wealthy. Neither one of us consider ourselves special. Any one can achieve what we have. Most people choose not to.

I read the article and the first question I have is why the author chose such a low-paying career that would not provide any disposable income to cover investments or emergencies. I can analogize with the situation my siblings have been in for decades. If the lack of a hundred bucks causes a personal financial collapse, you are doing something wrong.

 

[Bodhisattva]

The poison of Ayn Rand doing its work. Rationalize the "parasites" as deserving of their plight.

Concepts of self reliance, self determination, and keeping what you earn is hardly poison. On the contrary, leftist/statist concepts that encourage living off the sweat of others (and feeling entitled to do so) crush the concepts of individual independence and liberty. That's the expense, wasteful poison that leads to the big government (individual and corporate) welfare state we enjoy today.

 

[bamachile]

Been there myself a few times, and precariously close many more. Think you're not close? Get caught in a RIF when you're 50. Have a child or grandchild go rogue and cost you a few grand just before your freshly out of warranty vehicle throws a rod. Catch a frivolous lawsuit from an evil neighbor. Be a victim of arson. I could go on, but those who understand already get it, and those who don't won't.

Excellent article. Thanks.

 

[Bazza]

1. I was very careful not to directly say that any of those things were true of you because I didn't know that they are, but I was reacting to your own description of your knowledge of the subject.

2. I know it's been a while, but I am sorry you lost your father, especially at such a young age. (literally just saw that upon re-reading) I came very close to losing mine when I was about 7yo. He's in his 80's now and in rapidly declining health. That's hard enough with me in my 40's.

3. Thank you for sharing with me/us. I mean that.

4. I took your earlier post at face value. That was it. And I feel you are still painting with too broad a brush. But not just because some never drink or smoke but also because I generally try not to judge other people for how they -rich or poor- spend their money.

Fair enough. Not worth getting into a kafuffle over. Talk forums provide huge opportunities for misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

I try not to attack anyone unless I feel without a doubt they deserve to be challenged.

If you felt I was judging others on how they spend their money - perhaps I was. But as I responded, there are exceptions...there are always exceptions.....

Thanks for the condolences. I wish you, your dad, and your family nothing but the best in dealing with his health issues.

Godspeed....

 

[tide power fan]

I was so poor I didn't know it, until they came into my room at school and told me to come pick out some clothes, I never wanted charity even at a young age. I didn't even have a car when I got married started saying 10 bucks ever 2 weeks, got me and the wife out of that life style, on our own is how we did it sorry folks, people have to help themselves.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Fair enough. Not worth getting into a kafuffle over. Talk forums provide huge opportunities for misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

I try not to attack anyone unless I feel without a doubt they deserve to be challenged.

If you felt I was judging others on how they spend their money - perhaps I was. But as I responded, there are exceptions...there are always exceptions.....

Thanks for the condolences. I wish you, your dad, and your family nothing but the best in dealing with his health issues.

Godspeed....

Thank you. We cool, Bro. We cool.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

When some of us talk about those who are "content with being poor", we are not talking about folks the article describes or what many are talking about here. I have all the sympathy in the world for people who are struggling to pull themselves out of extremely tough situations. I have no problem helping people who are also trying to help themselves.

You can't deny that there are also plenty of people who are content with sitting at home and taking the government checks. It's sad that the government programs designed to help many people tend to encourage this behavior. Many are so scared of getting a job and losing there monthly checks that they just decide to not find work. I don't know the answer but, I think many welfare programs need to be overhauled. Many of them are just not accomplishing the goals they originally set out to achieve.

 

[bama_wayne1]

Thanks for posting the article. I heard on the news one day last week that the Alabama legislature was considering capping payday loans at 36%. That is horrible. It should be either illegal or capped at 10%. With money at 3.75%, 36% is much too high. That is preying on the poor!

 

[AUDub]

Concepts of self reliance, self determination, and keeping what you earn is hardly poison. On the contrary, leftist/statist concepts that encourage living off the sweat of others (and feeling entitled to do so) crush the concepts of individual independence and liberty. That's the expense, wasteful poison that leads to the big government (individual and corporate) welfare state we enjoy today.

You seriously believe that was the extent of her harebrained "philosophy?" Those are decent concepts and there is nothing objectionable about them, but all the good information there is wisdom you can get from sources that don't also include how the poor are parasites. Just because some of what she said might have had some merit does not absolve objectivism in its entirety.

If there are two sources on getting better at cardio and they read as such:

1) Alternate jogging and running at increasing intervals 3-4 times a week.

and

2) Alternate jogging and running at increasing intervals 3-4 times a week... and never forget the Jews are responsible for all the worlds wars.

It's like choosing option 2, and then defending it, saying "but that IS a good way to get better at running!"

 

[Bodhisattva]

You seriously believe that was the extent of her harebrained "philosophy?" Those are decent concepts and there is nothing objectionable about them, but all the good information there is wisdom you can get from sources that don't also include how the poor are parasites. Just because some of what she said might have had some merit does not absolve objectivism in its entirety.

If there are two sources on getting better at cardio and they read as such:

1) Alternate jogging and running at increasing intervals 3-4 times a week.

and

2) Alternate jogging and running at increasing intervals 3-4 times a week... and never forget the Jews are responsible for all the worlds wars.

It's like choosing option 2, and then defending it, saying "but that IS a good way to get better at running!"

I've read some of Rand's works - Atlas Shrugged multiple times. I don't see the demonization that you describe. (Perhaps it is works of hers that I have not read; I don't know.) I see plenty of legitimate criticisms. I see her description of people using the government to steal from those who are the productive members of society. I see her description of a government that manipulates markets and comes up with horrible laws with noble-sounding names to deceive the public. I see her criticizing a government that allows people to make excuses for being slugs.

Just so I won't be accused of hating on the poor in the abstract, let me make this personal:

My brother who is a year-and-a-half younger than me never obtained a trade or college degree. In spite of my parents paying for years worth of college, my brother mostly dropped his classes and kept the refund. He spent his twenties, thirties, and early forties doing little more that having out-of-wedlock children. His youngest daughter is two. His ability to pay child support has been hit-and-miss and will be for at least the next 16 years. He has massive debt and a credit rating through the floor. He spends his disposable income, when he has it, on tattoos. He's a personal trainer who doesn't have enough clients to allow him to have an apartment. He hasn't had a legitimate place of residence in at least a decade; he sleeps on the floor at a gym. He insists on living at one of the more expensive cities in country. I've offered several times to set him up with a money-making business. He only wants me to loan him money that he'll never pay back.

You get the picture. In my opinion, my brother is solely responsible for his situation. I don't believe he is entitled to anyone else's money. How much of your money do you think my brother deserves?

 

[AUDub]

Meh, she was admittedly selfish and the unbridled selfishness of humans - of which I imagine she was keenly aware for good reason - was part of her "message". Chances are she did dislike the poor. Not too different from many others of all political stripes. Truth be told, I almost feel a knee-jerk reaction to defend her but it doesn't really matter (even though she was speaking there less of the poor and more of those who chose to live off the labor of others to illustrate a point). Every "pure" political ideology is a fairy tale. Every not so pure political ideology is a fairy tale. None of them lead to Utopia (I do miss that game). All of them are doomed to failure under the right circumstance, mainly from the failures of human character -...

This we agree upon. I found a lot of irony in reading Atlas Shrugged, when extolling the virtues of her worldview, ended up with a small group of men in charge of the whole economy. They are above the law, they can even kill those who stand in their way so long, as the phrase goes, "the trains run on time." Which, of course, is similar to how the Soviets ran their economy, really. She simply replaced Politburo with the strong-jawed "Captains of Industry," as Monbiot phrased it.

I was once that "bookish 14 year old" John Rogers spoke of, and like many grew out of that phase when realizing the world isn't as simple as "heroes and everybody else." Even referred to myself an egoist for a time. What can I say? In my youth, it stroked my teenage ego. And, in hindsight, I realized what a terrible writer and philosopher she was. I found that if I was interested in egoism, it was better to spend time with Nietzsche. It took her 200 pages to express what he could have in 2.

...something about which she was spot on (the failures of human character, that is).

Which, naturally, excluded herself with her "purely objective" ideology, of course.

 

[92tide]

This we agree upon. I found a lot of irony in reading Atlas Shrugged, when extolling the virtues of her worldview, ended up with a small group of men in charge of the whole economy. They are above the law, they can even kill those who stand in their way so long, as the phrase goes, "the trains run on time." Which, of course, is similar to how the Soviets ran their economy, really. She simply replaced Politburo with the strong-jawed "Captains of Industry," as Monbiot phrased it.

I was once that "bookish 14 year old" John Rodgers spoke of, and like many grew out of that phase when realizing the world isn't as simple as "heroes and everybody else." Even referred to myself an egoist for a time. What can I say? In my youth, it stroked my teenage ego. And, in hindsight, I realized what a terrible writer and philosopher she was. I found that if I was interested in egoism, it was better to spend time with Nietzsche. It took her 200 pages to express what he could have in 2.



Which, naturally, excluded herself with her "purely objective" ideology, of course.

i've always found this funny, it's been bouncing around the internet for a while

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

 

[NationalTitles18]

i've always found this funny, it's been bouncing around the internet for a while

I chose LOTR, FWIW.

 

[AUDub]

I've read some of Rand's works - Atlas Shrugged multiple times. I don't see the demonization that you describe. (Perhaps it is works of hers that I have not read; I don't know.) I see plenty of legitimate criticisms. I see her description of people using the government to steal from those who are the productive members of society. I see her description of a government that manipulates markets and comes up with horrible laws with noble-sounding names to deceive the public. I see her criticizing a government that allows people to make excuses for being slugs.

Just so I won't be accused of hating on the poor in the abstract, let me make this personal:

My brother who is a year-and-a-half younger than me never obtained a trade or college degree. In spite of my parents paying for years worth of college, my brother mostly dropped his classes and kept the refund. He spent his twenties, thirties, and early forties doing little more that having out-of-wedlock children. His youngest daughter is two. His ability to pay child support has been hit-and-miss and will be for at least the next 16 years. He has massive debt and a credit rating through the floor. He spends his disposable income, when he has it, on tattoos. He's a personal trainer who doesn't have enough clients to allow him to have an apartment. He hasn't had a legitimate place of residence in at least a decade; he sleeps on the floor at a gym. He insists on living at one of the more expensive cities in country. I've offered several times to set him up with a money-making business. He only wants me to loan him money that he'll never pay back.

You get the picture. In my opinion, my brother is solely responsible for his situation. I don't believe he is entitled to anyone else's money. How much of your money do you think my brother deserves?

I have read the following books by Ayn Rand:
The Fountain Head
Atlas Shrugged
Anthem
Philosophy: Who Needs It?
Virtue of Selfishness

My advice to any bookish 14 year olds out there: do not waste your time reading Ayn Rand. Read good work instead. If you want a novel, reach for a well written novel: Dostoevsky, Tolkien, Lewis, Hemingway. If you want philosophy, reach for well reasoned philosophy: de Beauvoir, Locke, Jefferson.

 

[AUDub]

i've always found this funny, it's been bouncing around the internet for a while

Right. That's the one. Rogers had a way with words. Wonder if he's still blogging.

 

[AUDub]

I chose LOTR, FWIW.

Love it to this day. Not often a writer creates a fantasy world that expansive. My copy of the trilogy as well as the Silmarillion are in tatters.

Another expansive universe I loved, and seeing as Pullman is releasing a sequel series starting this year, is His Dark Materials. I'm re-reading the trilogy as we speak. Just about to start The Subtle Knife.

 

[Bodhisattva]

i've always found this funny, it's been bouncing around the internet for a while

For years I've seen that quote re-quoted as if it's somehow some type of legitimate criticism. It's not. It's one of the lamest commentaries of a philosophical work I've read. Most of the critics I've encountered have never read Atlas Shrugged, and the few that did don't understand the concept of analogy.