Woman trying out for LSU football team

[kayakerjess]

Best of luck to her. I hope she knows what she's getting herself into, and I really hope it turns out better than it did for Katie Hnida.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/rick_reilly/02/16/hnida/index.html

 

[bamabelle1991]

Best of luck to her. I hope she knows what she's getting herself into, and I really hope it turns out better than it did for Katie Hnida.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/rick_reilly/02/16/hnida/index.html

THIS and MANY other stories like it are exactly why this Mo Isom story has my pants in a wad!! It's not because I am a bad human and expect her to fail and file a discrimination law suit!! If Mo Isom was my daughter, I would be proud beyond belief at her drive and desire to never give up but I would NOT want her to play football!!

Look at the history of women putting themselves in men's locker rooms. RARELY does it turn out good. Ask the New York Jets, ask Brett Favre.

As a female, I have mixed emotions about this. I want all-around equality--or maybe I don't. Do I want my daughter in a locker room with 84 men after a football game--as a player or reporter? NO. There are some places where women just don't belong--and a men's locker room is one of them! Do I automatically assume that she will be physically or verbally assaulted? NO.

Here's where the problem is for me. If you CHOOSE to go into a men's locker room--knowing there will be men in there who don't know how to act--and you go and find yourself in a compromising position--do you have the right to complain and possibly file a lawsuit? Obviously, if you are physically assaulted--YES, but having to endure sexual innuendo and other sexually charged language from men in a locker room when you chose to go in there? What do women think men talk about in a locker room? Food and wine? Umm, no. If you can't take the language and seeing wildly flailing body parts everywhere, you do not belong in the men's locker room!! You can be a successful woman sports reporter without having to go into the locker room! Just ask Erin Andrews!! You can also be a successful female athlete without having to play football! Mo Isom has already proved that!

Anyway, I did not mean to imply that Mo Isom would run and file a lawsuit with my first comment in this thread. I simply posted a GENERAL frustration that I have when women attempt to interject themselves in a man's sport and get their feathers ruffled. That is all.

So, if she makes the team, it is my prayer for her that she is wildly successful everyday she plays--except when we are the opponent.

 

[KrAzY3]

Best of luck to her. I hope she knows what she's getting herself into, and I really hope it turns out better than it did for Katie Hnida.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/rick_reilly/02/16/hnida/index.html

All I can say is I hope that's not what she's getting herself into. Hopefully we've moved forward in about a decade and her proximity to and friendship with the current football players hopefully insures they don't tolerate any abuse. If there are negative attitudes towards women in sports, one would hope that at least some chivalry would be in order as well. I know I wouldn't tolerate that around me, it's hard to imagine who would (unless you have a bunch of guys enticed by sex to come to your university that like to rape people like Colorado).

If she's a prude, she has no purpose to putting herself in this situation, but if she's not a prude and she respects the player's privacy as best she can (yes there can be some issues but I'm guessing she won't be trying to change in front of them either) a lot of these issues can be avoided. I think it's probably a greater issue when a female sports reporter wants to come into a locker room, because they are there to interact with the players regardless of what it is the players are trying to do at the time. There's a difference between playing football with, and trying to follow around a person who is trying to shower or get dressed.

We had a lengthy topic about violence in football and a great degree of outrage over what is primarily legal, on field hits and in turn we have a bunch of Colorado rapists, sex parties for recruits, and so on and it seems that almost everyone got away with it and it really wasn't that big of a story (not nearly as big as the Sandusky story for instance). Barnett got a temporary suspension over all of that, sex parties and multiple rapes but hey, that's no biggie, right?

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Best of luck to her. I hope she knows what she's getting herself into, and I really hope it turns out better than it did for Katie Hnida.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/rick_reilly/02/16/hnida/index.html

That's the problem with mixing the genders on this level. The natural attraction of college guys to college chicks is hard to put aside. And this chick is hawt. So the risk of things like the link above is very high I'd have to believe.

 

[KrAzY3]

That's the problem with mixing the genders on this level. The natural attraction of college guys to college chicks is hard to put aside. And this chick is hawt. So the risk of things like the link above is very high I'd have to believe.

I get what you're saying... but to be clear here, natural attraction is not any sort of a justification for rubbing one's erect member against a girl, or raping her. I know that's not what you meant, but that's what is detailed in the story. If you see a hot naked chick, sure some things might happen... but come on, I don't imagine she's going to get naked in front of them and just because part of you has a reaction is never justification for the rest of you to do something unsolicited.

It's an incredibly sad statement that a girl simply being hot could lead to a high risk of sexual abuse. Probably true, but incredibly disturbing as well. I read that 25% of women in the military have been raped. Some might take that to mean women shouldn't be in the military, but I take that to mean a fairly large segment of our population should be shot.

 

[RVTIDER]

This thread is slowly approaching non-sports levels.DT_popc1:

 

[TideEngineer08]

We had a lengthy topic about violence in football and a great degree of outrage over what is primarily legal, on field hits and in turn we have a bunch of Colorado rapists, sex parties for recruits, and so on and it seems that almost everyone got away with it and it really wasn't that big of a story (not nearly as big as the Sandusky story for instance). Barnett got a temporary suspension over all of that, sex parties and multiple rapes but hey, that's no biggie, right?

You're going to have to show me the outrage from that thread. I don't remember any outrage, but I have not checked in on it much since it was moved to NS.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I get what you're saying... but to be clear here, natural attraction is not any sort of a justification for rubbing one's erect member against a girl, or raping her. I know that's not what you meant, but that's what is detailed in the story. If you see a hot naked chick, sure some things might happen... but come on, I don't imagine she's going to get naked in front of them and just because part of you has a reaction is never justification for the rest of you to do something unsolicited.

It's an incredibly sad statement that a girl simply being hot could lead to a high risk of sexual abuse. Probably true, but incredibly disturbing as well. I read that 25% of women in the military have been raped. Some might take that to mean women shouldn't be in the military, but I take that to mean a fairly large segment of our population should be shot.

I understand what you're saying KrAzY but there's theory then there's reality. Unfortunately people have to live and make decisions based on reality. Not theory or what "should" happen. In theory I should be able to walk the streets of downtown Shreveport late at night without anyone physically harming me. But do you think for one minute I'd base my decision on what should happen or what is more than likely to happen? You know that answer.

The sad reality is history has proven that scenarios like the one we're talking about have a high risk of danger involved. So if one wants to play with the opposite sex THAT BAD then they better understand the risks and base their expectations of what could happen on reality and not what should happen.

 

[Johnnyb]

We can say all we want about how these guys shouldn't do that, and don't get me wrong they should never do anything like what is mentioned in that SI article ever, but at some point you just have to not let people get into a situation like that if you know there could be an issue.

It disgusts me that people would do what they did to the girl up at CU, but let's not be naive and say that it would never happen at LSU or even Bama if we were in this situation. It might not (and lets hope that the guys down on the bayou are upstanding gentlemen), but at some point you have to just say the risk is definitely not worth the reward.

I certainly hope the best for this girl and that she is successful in whatever she does, but just know that it only takes one bad egg to spoil the lot. And to use one more cliche, when you play with fire, you're gonna get burned, and this is the kind of fire that can ignite an entire school if things got out of control.

 

[saraelizabethua]

I got roped into watching her Meaux vs. videos on Monday. She's actually really likable, and a good kicker. If she makes the team, she'll mark the first time a likable person played for LSU's football team. Ever.

 

[KrAzY3]

This thread is slowly approaching non-sports levels.DT_popc1:

Yeah, that occurred to me. I wasn't trying to, but I don't see how to dance around such a serious issue once it's been introduced. I certainly can't be like oh yeah, it's the girls fault for being around guys. I mean we are talking about things that college football players did (sadly) but I understand that even if a football player does it to another football player it can be considered outside the realm of sports.

You're going to have to show me the outrage from that thread. I don't remember any outrage, but I have not checked in on it much since it was moved to NS.

There seemed to be some people fairly worked up over the notion of a bounty in pro football. My point was simply that this stuff that happened at Colorado, done by football players and with some degree of tolerance from people in authority is beyond despicable and should have had far more serious consequences and outrage. It should have been a bigger issue, there should have been more punishment and sadly I think there was an element of "boys will be boys" to the whole story. At least six different rape allegations and that nets a temporary suspension for the coach.

The sad reality is history has proven that scenarios like the one we're talking about have a high risk of danger involved. So if one wants to play with the opposite sex THAT BAD then they better understand the risks and base their expectations of what could happen on reality and not what should happen.

Sorry guys... but I have to.

So, when a boy stepped into a communal shower with Sandusky they should have expected to be raped? Once again, I know that's not what you're saying but that's the logic behind the argument. A men's locker room should not be a haven for sexual abuse of any sort. To say, if you don't want to get raped just don't go around them is pretty sick. I was once told not to look a violent wife abuser in the eyes. Oh yeah, my looking him in the eyes was the problem. What I'm saying is no, such a controlled environment, with so many coaches, and the like should not be an environment in which one would expect sexual abuse. If she was engaging in any activity to solicit that sort of thing that's one thing, but if her "crime" was being there, no, playing sports with men should not bring about an expectation of sexual abuse.

If you're a rapist, you're a rapist... it's not like you just upped and decided you wanted to try it out because a girl was playing sports with you. This is one line I don't think we as a society can cross. We can never lower our expectations as to expect sexual abuse. Military, sports, etc... but when we do fine it our response should be strong, severe, and memorable. If more people were held responsible, I can guarantee you things like this would be less common. It's our, well the girl should have known better than to do ____ mentality that breeds tolerance of this, of which there should be none. We all know what was really going on. There were people that look the other way when the football player was being abused, or women in military are being abused because they believe they shouldn't be there. That's no different than the inability for Mississippi to convict murderers of black men in the past. I guess black men should have known better than to have lived in Mississippi, right?

Now, I don't know if this thread can be salvaged and I'm willing to drop the subject if others are, but there's a few things that will always spark outrage on my part and this is one of them.

 

[kayakerjess]

...
We had a lengthy topic about violence in football and a great degree of outrage over what is primarily legal, on field hits and in turn we have a bunch of Colorado rapists, sex parties for recruits, and so on and it seems that almost everyone got away with it and it really wasn't that big of a story (not nearly as big as the Sandusky story for instance). Barnett got a temporary suspension over all of that, sex parties and multiple rapes but hey, that's no biggie, right?

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. The scandal came to a conclusion in early summer 2004. The AD was out by the end of the year, the university president resigned the following March, and Barnett was fired after the 2005 season. I can't comment about what kind of national attention this got, but it definitely got plenty of coverage out here. And, not trying to minimize what the recruits and players did by any means, but the Sandusky thing was orders of magnitude worse than what happened at CU.

Barnett forced out:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2252252

Embattled AD Dick Tharp resigns:
'the leaders of this University have decided in favor of my departure'

Hoffman out after five years at CU:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2007094

 

[Bamabuzzard]

So, when a boy stepped into a communal shower with Sandusky they should have expected to be raped? Once again, I know that's not what you're saying but that's the logic behind the argument. A men's locker room should not be a haven for sexual abuse of any sort. To say, if you don't want to get raped just don't go around them is pretty sick. I was once told not to look a violent wife abuser in the eyes. Oh yeah, my looking him in the eyes was the problem. What I'm saying is no, such a controlled environment, with so many coaches, and the like should not be an environment in which one would expect sexual abuse. If she was engaging in any activity to solicit that sort of thing that's one thing, but if her "crime" was being there, no, playing sports with men should not bring about an expectation of sexual abuse.

If you're a rapist, you're a rapist... it's not like you just upped and decided you wanted to try it out because a girl was playing sports with you. This is one line I don't think we as a society can cross. We can never lower our expectations as to expect sexual abuse. Military, sports, etc... but when we do fine it our response should be strong, severe, and memorable. If more people were held responsible, I can guarantee you things like this would be less common. It's our, well the girl should have known better than to do ____ mentality that breeds tolerance of this, of which there should be none. We all know what was really going on. There were people that look the other way when the football player was being abused, or women in military are being abused because they believe they shouldn't be there. That's no different than the inability for Mississippi to convict murderers of black men. I guess black men should have known better than to have lived in Mississippi, right?

Now, I don't know if this thread can be salvaged and I'm willing to drop the subject if others are, but there's a few things that will always spark outrage on my part and this is one of them.

I'll move it to the Non-Sports board for further discussion.

Let's move away from the extreme examples of "rapists" and simply move toward the common behavior of most college guys or men in general. It is very common in a group of men, especially a group of men in a locker room for the sexual comments regarding women to be made. And most of the time when guys get comfortable with a female being around they begin to say them in her presence and maybe even toward her. However, that doesn't mean they are a serial rapist, murdering, brain eating Silence of the Lambs type. It just means they are the average male athlete in a locker room. And odds are this behavior is not going to stop. Now you can agree with it or not and we can discuss what should be and what shouldn't. But it doesn't take away the fact that people, for their safety, BETTER make decisions on reality and probability rather than theories before getting into situations that history has shown can turn out tragic. Things like this just have too many things in play that lead to a recipe for disaster. Because it doesn't have to be rape. I can guarantee you that once the guys get comfortable with her being on the team or in the locker room the normal behavior and language of a men's locker room will return and the problems will begin.

 

[KrAzY3]

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. The scandal came to a conclusion in early summer 2004. The AD was out by the end of the year, the university president resigned the following March, and Barnett was fired after the 2005 season.

A: To my knowledge there was no penalty brought upon the school by the NCAA, despite the sex parties for recruits.
B: When things came to light Barnett was suspended, but not until a 7-5 season featuring 4 straight losses was he fired.

Barnett's firing was not directly related to these incidents, so yes all he got for that was a suspension. His poor performance on a coach did get him fired though: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2252252
Losing=worse than having a team full of rapists

Let's move away from the extreme examples of "rapists" and simply move toward the common behavior of most college guys or men in general. It is very common in a group of men, especially a group of men in a locker room for the sexual comments regarding women to be made. And most of the time when guys get comfortable with a female being around they begin to say them in her presence and maybe even toward her. However, that doesn't mean they are a serial rapist, murdering, brain eating Silence of the Lambs type. It just means they are the average male athlete in a locker room. And odds are this behavior is not going to stop. Now you can agree with it or not and we can discuss what should be and what shouldn't. But it doesn't take away the fact that people, for their safety, BETTER make decisions on reality and probability rather than theories before getting into situations that history has shown can turn out tragic.

Well, I said before she shouldn't put herself in that position if she's a prude. And I hope she is very aware of respecting their privacy and that she is not the one making them uncomfortable. If all they say is stuff like "girl you looking good", or hit on her that's one thing. If they hit on her, while they're naked and grabbing themselves... that's something completely different. If she can't take a few comments, she certainly shouldn't be there and perhaps most importantly if she can't respect the privacy of the male players. However, if there are any decent men involved in that program they'll insure it won't turn out tragic. We know Colorado was lacking, and that's a condemnation of everyone involved with that program, it's not something that should ever be repeated.

My entire issue, once again not with you personally, is that there's a tolerance built in on this issue that just shouldn't be there. People that use sexual abuse as a tool (my brother was telling me about how commonly Afghans use rape), people that tolerate this behavior because they don't like women doing these things (no different than people looking the other way when black men were lynched), etc... So Gary didn't like having a girl on his team. Ok, that's one thing. Letting what happened go on because he didn't like having a girl on his time reaches a whole other level of depravity and the fact that to this day he and the Colorado football program hasn't really been held accountable sickens me.

Edit: Now that it's here, I'll go ahead... she is hot for sure. I don't know what it is with homecoming queens and playing football, but honestly why would guys have a problem with that? Is that some latent homosexual thing? Get away from here you attractive girl, you're blocking my view of naked guys! I'm trying to figure out exactly how gay you have to be to try to run off the hot chicks.

Honestly though, when I see a hot likable girl, my response, which perhaps isn't really morally justifiable since ugly girls deserve the same rights is that I'd be more likely to want to look out for here and protect her.

 

[rizolltizide]

I'll take that bootay.

Fixed.

 

[rizolltizide]

Look at the history of women putting themselves in men's locker rooms. RARELY does it turn out good.

Depends on who's definition of "good" you're using.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Well, I said before she shouldn't put herself in that position if she's a prude. And I hope she is very aware of respecting their privacy and that she is not the one making them uncomfortable. If all they say is stuff like "girl you looking good", or hit on her that's one thing. If they hit on her, while they're naked and grabbing themselves... that's something completely different. If she can't take a few comments, she certainly shouldn't be there and perhaps most importantly if she can't respect the privacy of the male players. However, if there are any decent men involved in that program they'll insure it won't turn out tragic. We know Colorado was lacking, and that's a condemnation of everyone involved with that program, it's not something that should ever be repeated.

My entire issue, once again not with you personally, is that there's a tolerance built in on this issue that just shouldn't be there. People that use sexual abuse as a tool (my brother was telling me about how commonly Afghans use rape), people that tolerate this behavior because they don't like women doing these things (no different than people looking the other way when black men were lynched), etc... So Gary didn't like having a girl on his team. Ok, that's one thing. Letting what happened go on because he didn't like having a girl on his time reaches a whole other level of depravity and the fact that to this day he and the Colorado football program hasn't really been held accountable sickens me.

Unfortunately it is easier to discourage women from puttin themselves in situations like this than it is to eliminate the risk of a man not being able to control his sexual desires. How many people have been prosecuted for rape and are doing hard time yet it hasn't stopped more rapes from happening? So to prevent the rape from happening what is easier? To hope that every person within a gender all of a sudden becomes more humane or more respectful of the law or to discourage a female from putting herself into a potential dangerous situation?


There's a great place in the ghetto's of Shreveport that I'd love to go eat. Rumor has it they serve some great Soul Food. However, it is also known that white folks ain't always welcome either. So what do you think I should do? Go ahead and go and hope to God the brutha's are having a "good day" or run the risk of me being a statistic? What would you do?

 

[cbi1972]

Edit: Now that it's here, I'll go ahead... she is hot for sure. I don't know what it is with homecoming queens and playing football, but honestly why would guys have a problem with that? Is that some latent homosexual thing? Get away from here you attractive girl, you're blocking my view of naked guys! I'm trying to figure out exactly how gay you have to be to try to run off the hot chicks.

You make a lot of good points that I agree with, but this isn't one of them. I would guess the objections have more to do with distraction, having to modify behavior based on her presence, and the hassle of having separate facilities just for one person. Football players aren't in the locker room to hook up with girls. They are there to improve as a team, build camaraderie, etc.

 

[cbi1972]

Unfortunately it is easier to discourage women from puttin themselves in situations like this than it is to eliminate the risk of a man not being able to control his sexual desires. How many people have been prosecuted for rape and are doing hard time yet it hasn't stopped more rapes from happening? So to prevent the rape from happening what is easier? To hope that every person within a gender all of a sudden becomes more humane or more respectful of the law or to discourage a female from putting herself into a potential dangerous situation?

There's a great place in the ghetto's of Shreveport that I'd love to go eat. Rumor has it they serve some great Soul Food. However, it is also known that white folks ain't always welcome either. So what do you think I should do? Go ahead and go and hope to God the brutha's are having a "good day" or run the risk of me being a statistic? What would you do?

There is what is easy and there is what is right.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

There is what is easy and there is what is right.

All sounds wonderful on an internet message board. Then when it's your daughter that you encourage to go ahead and play, with the hopes/expectations that everybody will do the right thing. Only to have one or two of them decide not to and rape your daughter.

Look, I'm not giving the guys in the locker room a pass. I completely understand what SHOULD happen and how she SHOULD be treated. But I'm not going to put the safety of my daughter in the hands of some testosterone driven athletes to "do the right thing".