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You Make the Call - 9/20

tidehawk

tidehawk

HS Moderator
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Feb 9, 2001
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Wetumpka, AL
Here is a situation that was discussed in our meeting last night - too weird for words. The answer will astound you...it did me. I am especially interested in how Jref and bamajake respond - I would have been totally wrong in my response:

4th and 5 from the 50 yd line. Team Red punts short and Team White muffs the ball and it bounds back behind the line of scrimmage. The punter picks up the ball and throws a pass downfield but it is incomplete. What happens next?
 
tidehawk said:
4th and 5 from the 50 yd line. Team Red punts short and Team White muffs the ball and it bounds back behind the line of scrimmage. The punter picks up the ball and throws a pass downfield but it is incomplete. What happens next?
Click to expand...

simple verison: red ball from where the the punter threw it, plus tack on the penalty for illegal forward laterial. 1 and 10 red
 
Well, I think that a muffed punt cannot be advanced by the kicking team. The ball would be dead when they touch it next. The only question that I have is whether or not the ball being behind the line of scrimmage changes that.

It is not a fumble, so there was no change of possession. It is still a live kick when the punter picks it up. I think that he can attempt to advance it again - like a blocked punt.

My guess - Failing to get the first down on the pass, White takes over on downs at the 50.

Either way, it has got to be White's ball because there was no change of possession and Red did not advance the ball 5 yards... :conf2:
 
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OK Hawk, I'll give it a try. First, If the receiving team first touches a scrimmage kick beyond the expanded neutral zone, the ball will belong to whichever team has possession at the end of the down and that team will be awarded a new series, i.e., first and ten. Because the ball bounded back behind the neutral zone, the kicking team can fall on it and it will be their ball with a new series at that spot; they can advance it and it will be their ball with a new series wherever the run ends; they can kick it again and, if the receiving team doesn't muff it again, it will be the receiving team's ball; or they can throw a forward pass. Because the pass is thrown from behind the neutral zone and it is the only forward pass during the play, it is a legal forward pass. So far, everything that was done during the play is legal. Now to determine who gets the ball and where.

According to the rules, the team in possession at the end of the down gets the ball. In this case, the kicking team was in team possession at the end of the down. Therefore, I would say that the kicking team gets possession. The where is an interesting question. Certainly, Red will not get the ball where it stops rolling. The other choices are at the spot of the pass and the previous spot. I can't think of a rule that would spot the ball from the spot of the pass. I would guess that it would be from the previous spot -- the 50 yard line.

All that having been said, I would spot the ball at the 50 and and award a first down to Red. I could very well be wrong. What bothers me is that this is a play that I can see happening and I am not sure of the ruling. In high school football we often see punts that are shanked for 10 to 15 yards that could easily be muffed back behind the neutral zone.

Something that is also likely to happen in this situation is Red having ineligible players downfield at the time of the pass. That would make it even more interesting.
 
Not being an official I am not at all certain but...

I would actually disagree a bit with the premise that the ball would remain in possession of the red team and here is why. Again, I'm not positive but here is my thought.

Since the ball was muffed, it could be the red teams ball had the punter simply fallen on it and it would have been 1st and 10 from that spot. However, since he tried to pass the ball and it was incomplete, my guess is that it in a way is yet another fumble (illegal forward lateral) and whomever falls on it after the forward pass retains possession at the point that they recovered the ball. The LOS would simply not remain once the punter passed it beyond that. There would also be a penalty at this point for an illegal forward lateral since possession had changed. Here are the refs options as I see them. If White recovered the ball where it landed, it would be white ball with the option of also adding on the illegal forward pass penalty. If Red fell on the ball, and this is odd, I would guess that white would have the option of accepting an illegal forward pass penalty and moving the red team back but white still doesn't get the ball. I simply don't feel that the original LOS matters because possession actually changes upon the punt of the ball. Therefore, even if it goes back behind the original LOS it doesn't matter because the LOS becomes wherever the final DEAD BALL lands. The fact that the punter attempted a pass would be an illegal forward lateral in effect. To Sum it up, I guess that whomever falls on the final ball gets to keep it and that there would be a penalty on red either way for an illegal forward pass.

Now, I do have another theory. Since red can't advance a muff, what the punter does with the ball is irrelevant and it should be blown dead at that spot and it's red ball 1st and 10 from wherever the punter picked it up after the muff...again the original LOS is irrelevant.
 
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bamajake said:
Because the ball bounded back behind the neutral zone, the kicking team can fall on it and it will be their ball with a new series at that spot; they can advance it and it will be their ball with a new series wherever the run ends; they can kick it again and, if the receiving team doesn't muff it again, it will be the receiving team's ball; or they can throw a forward pass.
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I thought that there was a rule that said that if the kicking team recovers a punted ball (scrimmage kick) that had crossed the neutral zone, the ball was dead at the spot of the recovery??? Why would the line of scrimmage even enter into the arguement once crossed? Logic says that it ceases to be the "line of scrimmage" once the kicked ball crosses it, doesn't it?

If you are correct in the possession ruling, the Red team would get the ball where the kicker picks it up. The ball would be dead. The pass would not count.

I still think that the White team should get the ball, no matter what the rule book indicates...
 
Selma-Bama-Fan said:
When the ball goes behind the line of scrimmage, it is treated as a blocked punt.
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That's right. If the kickers recover behind the LOS, they can do anything they could do before the punt -- run, pass or kick.

So the incomplete pass is the same as a fake punt. White ball on the 50.
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But you're ignoring the muff by the receivers (White). Once White muffs the kick, whichever team is in possession at the end of the down (Red, in this play) is awarded a new series.

So, we have Red's ball. The basic spot for an incomplete pass is the previous spot.

Red, 1st & 10 at the 50. Clock starts on the snap.
 
NYBamaFan said:
I thought that there was a rule that said that if the kicking team recovers a punted ball (scrimmage kick) that had crossed the neutral zone, the ball was dead at the spot of the recovery???
Click to expand...
Only if it's recovered beyond the neutral zone.

To quote the case book (6.2.3 Sit A Comment): "The right of the kickers to advance their recovered scrimmage kicks depends entirely upon whether the kick is recovered in, behind or beyond the neutral zone. Whether the kick went beyond the neutral zone and then rebounded behins it is of no consequence. The spot of recovery is the only factor. If the recovery is in or behind the neutral zone, K may advance. If the recovery is beyond the neutral zone, K may recover, but not advance." (emphasis added)
 
Once White muffs the kick, whichever team is in possession at the end of the down (Red, in this play) is awarded a new series.
Click to expand...
I really hope that you are wrong because this flies directly in the face of the basic tenets of the game.

Red should only keep the ball if they recover it beyond the 1st down marker if there was no change of possession. A muff does not qualify as a change of possession...
 
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NYBamaFan said:
A muff does not qualify as a change of possession...
Click to expand...

But think about it, NY - if the receiving team muffed the ball down the field and the kicking team recovered it, whose ball would it be?
 
if the receiving team muffed the ball down the field and the kicking team recovered it, whose ball would it be?
Click to expand...
If they recovered the ball beyond the first down marker, the kicking team should keep it. If they recover the ball short of the first down marker, the receiving team should take over on downs. A muff does not represent a change of possessions.

If they want to change the rule and get rid of the entire premise behind the "muff", then I have no problem with that, but there are other rules tied to a muff that make this inconsistent. Either a muff is just a continuation of the kick, or it is a change of possession. It can't be both...
 
In a muff situation, it still is a kick. The difference is that it is now a free ball.

If you remember a YMTC from a couple of weeks ago, I had a situation where a punt was muffed and the ball wound up in the endzone. It was a touchback since it was still considered a kick. However, if the kicking team had recovered the ball on the 5 yd line, it would their ball, 1st and goal.
 
All that I am saying is that if that is the case, they need to completely eliminate the rules around a supposed "muff" and simply state that any contact by the receiving team constitutes a change in possession. The ball would then be a free ball, no longer a kick. Whoever recovers the ball either can or cannot advance (I don't really care which way the rulebook goes here, but whether or not the ball is behind the line of scrimmage shouldn't matter - if there was just a possession change, the old LOS is no longer material).

I am not arguing with the contents of the rule book, just whether or not they make sense. In this case, they do not. They can be simplified greatly, as I just demonstrated, and would stick more closely to the basic tenets of the game...
 
I understand what you are saying NY. It does seem inconsistent. I do not look forward to a game where White punts to Red and Red muffs it on the 10 and it rolls into the endzone and Red gets it on the 20 and then four plays later Red punts from the 25, White muffs it back behind the neutral zone, Red picks it up, heaves a desperation pass 40 yards downfield that is not caught and then I have to explain to the White coach that Red gets a first down on the 25. Unless he studies the rules, I would never be able to explain it to him.

Now you see why we officials sit around and talk about situations that would ordinarily seem bizarre -- they can, and do, happen. Especially in the kicking game.

Hawk, thanks for the situation. Keep them coming.
 
Since the ball crossed the line of scrimmage & it was muffed, the kicking team can gain posssesion, but not advance the ball. So, the pass does not count and nor is it a fumble. :conf3: Therefore, 1st and ten for the Red Team from where ever the punter gained possession. :confused:
 
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